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Thread: Need Fi help!

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Not me exactly. I was surprised at myself for ripping into someone once, seeing him play my songs at a party, and then explicitly taking credit for them too. Not even playing them well either, which is what really stung. It's one thing to build things with people, but I have to say I claim ownership to something. If I can't even claim a song, then that's madness. Maybe this is a big difference with a 9.
    That is a different thing, taking credit. That'd annoy me too. What I was meaning is that I am fairly flexible in how things turn out.

  2. #22
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    Satine, excellent suggestions.

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Leadership skillz 'lullah - you haz them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Talullah, as far as the dynamics problem, it sounds like Ne is playing just as big a role here
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, he's not looking for yes / no, he's looking for them to be brainstormed out further to see if they are workable or not. Yes or no at the outset would crush the next creative phase of brainstorming, which is "Can we make this real?" "Does / would this fit with us and the real world?" Maybe have a couple of brainstorms, and set a band mission statement at the same time?
    ^^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Oh, my gosh, so much great stuff, everyone! I will respond when I get back from my gig tonight--I better go get ready. Thanks for all your input! I very much appreciate it!!!
    ^ Also, he may really be ENTP; it's hard to say if you're misreading him and over-analyzing limited interactions in a band setting. Maybe he's pressing on and experimenting anyway in hopes that you love it (despite your initial opinions); *or* maybe he's trying to be funny by deviating from what he knows you want just because he sees you as setting nonsense limitations (I believe his intentions are different from ENFP in that the goal is a productive one to make you lighten up and play around with his ideas). I'm just bouncing ideas off of y'all here.

    I'm thinking ENTP will have an abundance of #1.Optimism, #2.Determination, #3.Leadership qualities, #4.Candid Communication skills with a side of humor... a "think positive" attitude. All of which would effectively drive the band towards common goals and loads of fresh new ideas, if you will allow it. The more open/flexible you are, the easier that innovative pill will go down. As with any type, frequent goal blockages will lead to frustration and eventually anger.

    On that note, he *did* test ENTP, so I'm *not* looking at him as having destructive passive-aggressive tendancies. I think if he had a legitimate problem with you, he would come right out and tell you. It will be interesting to see what he says.

  3. #23
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    That is a different thing, taking credit. That'd annoy me too. What I was meaning is that I am fairly flexible in how things turn out.
    What is it you do artistically anyways? I'd like to know. I've heard you talk about exercising as art, but I've never heard you mention other mediums. That's cool and all, but I'm wondering where you're coming from. The typical artistic idea isn't very seed-like in many cases. At times, it's really more of a pregnancy...something tied into one's identity. And bands are more like collectives. Not unions. They could be hierarchies too, where one or a few dominate, but that's not my thing either.

    Another thing...Do you even know what it's like to feel that presence of syncopation that shows up in a good band? There's always this moment when it happens, and it's never something you're ever ready for. Or set out to do. It's kind of magical really.. Enough to almost make you forget where you're at, and maybe even screw up because of that. It's trouble finding it. It's never really this thing where everyone's got this kind of casual attitude. Music is individuals with passion - and then respect for those like them. And even a healthy dose of competition too. There's all this going on, and that's why it's so great when it clicks. If there's a band out there with a more laid back attitude, then they suck.

  4. #24

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    I don't do anything much other than training in the gym and teaching that. The closest thing I get to art is designing something for work or fun. I was talking about ideas in that sense and clarifying what I meant. I can see where it is different, how it would be tied to your identity in more artistic pursuits.

  5. #25
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    this is kind of you tallulah, i'm sure he will really appreciate you trying to help him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Let him rant. Make him feel heard. Nod. Validate his frustrations. Then see if you guys can come up with a way to compromise or effectively deal with the situation (break out that Te ). If you're even able to get a little bit of his stuff suggested to the group, he'll feel much more appreciated. Also, explain to him that the ENFJ isn't meaning to make him feel this way, but it's hard to keep a group together like that and make everyone feel like they're getting what they want out of it AND make it work in reality as well. Explain this to him. Let him know that she doesn't hold a specific grudge against him, but that it's just the way she rolls and it might be something she still has to work on, she's still very good for the group. Explain him your observations, without saying 'and this part is your responsibility!'. Let him draw those conclusions himself. He will. Suggest also some tactics as to how to improve the communication between him and the enfj (since you seem to get on with both )


    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    often having those ideas criticized (and I'm not saying that the band does that, but I can imagine) as if they are a finished idea, can hurt, as he's just brainstorming..it's a draft and he wants to get you guys enthused and help him figure out the potential for the idea (we often suck at execution and reality checks, this is why I love INTJs!). A lot of times, it hurts that people seem to 'lack vision' when they shoot something down without exploring it (I've found that FeTi users often don't float an idea in the group before it's finished..we're usually not like that!).
    yeah. i've been in a group with an ENFJ leader before. it's very important that brainstorming is not for the sake of a final product. it's for the sake of creating new ideas, and then picking and choosing the best ones. it's strange to hear your brainstorming shot down immediately because it's not on topic. it's not supposed to be on topic, it's supposed to spark new ideas. and i am definitely more than happy to allow someone else to have final say - i don't really like that part anyway - but it's nice to have ideas checked out and appreciated.

    maybe yall could establish something once a month where he shares a big compilation of all his ideas with the band, so that you guys don't have to worry about really listening and responding to his unrefined ideas all the time, and that gives him an impetus to refine his ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    One thing that came to mind reading the ENFJ mail is that it isn't to him. I'd rather have something said to me personally while being reinforced as an important member of the team, that my input has value. In situations where people feel that it is more diplomatic to address the group as a whole and I can see that I am at fault in some way I start to go over my value and look for clarification in some way. It digs on my mind and can undermine my confidence.
    yeah, i relate to this a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    If I'm right, then my advice to you is some direct confrontation but done in an Fi-friendly manner. When my Ne gets into overdrive, you've gotta right it down on a post it note, tape it to the end of a 2x4, and whack me upside the head for me to get it.
    LOL YES

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks Tallulah for your example. If these are issues with this guy's playing on a regular basis, and he already knows it, and he got this e-mail, I think he might have a hard time depersonalizing it as he would feel it was directed right at him, without being directed at him. Passive-aggressive. I can imagine it might make him feel angry, and singled out in a kind of embarrassing way.


    so i figure you've already gone ahead on some plans but i think in general just talking to him one-on-one and asking how he feels about what he's having a hard time with, and letting him share his frustration with you, will make him feel safe and supported instead of criticized and singled out. i love PB's idea of establishing a sort of "mission statement" for the band - i am very loyal to ideals and a mission statement gives me something to weave my ideas and feelings around. and then giving him a concrete block of time to share his ideas would let him feel supported without having to constantly bother you guys. and then all that has to happen is people offer gratitude for his hard work, and tell him what they like about it, and if it's not quite right then talk about why and send him back to the drawing board. and hey, he might even share some really good, useful ideas.

    i hope your show went well!!

  6. #26
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Hey, guys, show went great! Everyone was in a really positive mood, and we didn't have much time to chat about more serious issues. I'm exhausted from the show now and still processing these new ideas, but I promise response stuff tomorrow when I'm not feeling dead on my feet.
    Something Witty

  7. #27
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    K, little bit at a time...

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    There's a lot to sift through here. I can see some of it in myself. I don't even like bands per se, so that probably says something. I like jamming. It's so much easier to let things come out that way. It sounds like he needs to get some perspective though on the fact that some of his ideas are being taken seriously. He just has a large output to see it maybe. Hopefully some of the advice given here works out, but the only thing I can add is that when he does have an idea, definitely let it be known in one way or another. It needs to register in his ego, sounds like.
    He definitely has a large output of ideas. Sometimes overwhelmingly so, but I like that he's excited about the band and making us better. Maybe we need to set aside a time where we can throw out ideas. Maybe more band meetings or something, and that way it's not a quick yes or no before moving on...we'd have time to explore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    He's lucky to have you looking out for him, trust me

    About the bolded: Fi-users often don't wanna force anything on anyone else, as they hate having this done to him. He's trying to generate ideas coz a) it's what we do and b) he wants to help and is clearly enthused about the project. It probably hurts his feelings a little bit that others don't always share his vision on those ideas. Also, often having those ideas criticized (and I'm not saying that the band does that, but I can imagine) as if they are a finished idea, can hurt, as he's just brainstorming..it's a draft and he wants to get you guys enthused and help him figure out the potential for the idea (we often suck at execution and reality checks, this is why I love INTJs!). A lot of times, it hurts that people seem to 'lack vision' when they shoot something down without exploring it (I've found that FeTi users often don't float an idea in the group before it's finished..we're usually not like that!).

    To get back to my point, his enthusiasm may make him seem pushy, but he really doesn't wanna push anything on anyone..at the same time he probably wants to carry his weight and finds this hard to do as he doesn't feel as free to be his creative self due to obvious limitations. It's somethign he fights with and isn't your or anyone's fault. Keeping the above in mind though in your communication with him might help make him feel more heard as well in the future though.
    This is very insightful...I keep forgetting that some people extrovert their ideas before they're fully baked, and I like the brainstorming/collaborative process, but sometimes I have to have it framed like that, maybe...so I know we're just throwing ideas out, and some of them might not be feasible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Talullah, as far as the dynamics problem, it sounds like Ne is playing just as big a role here as Fi. From what I'm hearing, the ENFJ band leader is repeatedly making requests to improve the dynamics and the ENFP guitarist is nodding his head but doing nothing to address the problem. If this is an accurate summary, then I'd say it sounds like Ne run amuck.
    Hee, which the ENFJ reads as passive aggression, and everything goes waaaaay downhill from there!

    Let me use myself as an example: there have been times when I've had to be coached on my performance and I nod my head and earnestly take the advice to heart. But then my dominant Ne goes on to the next shiny thing it sees and I do nothing to change my behavior because I'm so busy taking in new information that I forget to implement the feedback into my behavior. This is a problem for Ne doms I think. And the only way I learned to break it was having enough life experience of getting my ass chewed out for me to say to myself, "Maybe you need to do a little soul searching here." LOL!

    I think Fi is also part of the problem too: Fi users (or at least I) have a pretty well-thought out vision of who they are. In this case, the ENFP guitar player thinks he's a pretty darn good guitar player... and he very well might be. I guess what I'm saying is that it's extra hard for an ENFP to implement changes in their behavior, if the changes go against their "idea" of who they are... or their essence. I don't know if this makes sense, but that's the best way I know how to explain it.
    I think so...I think I've even felt that way sometimes in the past...kind of like the vision of yourself as the thing is almost the same thing as the thing itself, so it gets murky? Like the vision is as much payoff as the reality?

    He really is a good guitar player. He's gotten sloppy with certain things lately, though; things he'd never have been sloppy about in the beginning, but he had more to prove then, maybe.

    So it sounds to me like you've got an ENFP with his Ne in overdrive (aka not implementing new information because he's too focused on taking in more new information) and an Fi function that's giving push back because for him to change he'd have to do a rethink of his Fi vision of himself as a band member. <- Never pleasant, but a required skill for a mature adult.

    If I'm right, then my advice to you is some direct confrontation but done in an Fi-friendly manner. When my Ne gets into overdrive, you've gotta right it down on a post it note, tape it to the end of a 2x4, and whack me upside the head for me to get it. As far as how to have an Fi-user friendly conversation... #1- talk to him in private. #2 - Remind him of his other Fi values. There are Fi values, then there are Fi values. In other words, tap into a more important Fi value, and he'll do an Fi rethink on his behavior.

    For example, I may want to be able to express my Fi-ness and be true to my vision of myself. (<-Current Fi value driving my behavior.) But I would be horrified if I were reminded that I was working against the bests interests of the band, or if I thought I was being inconsiderate of other band members. (<- Higher Fi value I'd realize I'm violating.) If I were in the ENFP's shoes then I'd probably burst into tears and then spend a week apologizing to everyone. (That's another thing, don't expect him not to show his upsetness. Just remember he's probably most upset with himself. Let him be upset and work through it himself.)

    Hope this helps! Let us know how your ENFP problem progresses.
    Very helpful, thanks! I will have to think about how to tap into another Fi value without making it sound like Fe-get-in-line-and-don't-let-us-down. Can you think of a way to couch that in Fi terms? The stuff he's not fixing kind of brings down our real estate, even though a lot of other stuff he does is really good. We sound so much more polished when everyone is mindful of the nitpicky, musician-y stuff like dynamics.

    More to come...
    Something Witty

  8. #28
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    MOAR STUFF:

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post

    One thing that came to mind reading the ENFJ mail is that it isn't to him. I'd rather have something said to me personally while being reinforced as an important member of the team, that my input has value. In situations where people feel that it is more diplomatic to address the group as a whole and I can see that I am at fault in some way I start to go over my value and look for clarification in some way. It digs on my mind and can undermine my confidence.
    Okay, this seems crucial. ENFJ thinks she's being kinder by addressing the group, rather than singling one person out, but you're saying it's having the opposite effect on him? This is good to know! How can we broach the subject without sounding like we're being patronizing? I think Fe sometimes has issues with that b/c we feel like if we lead with reiterating someone's value that we're patronizing them to get to the part where we say what we want them to fix. Should we lead with the request, and then stress how valuable he is? Or should we lead with the validation first? Does anyone have a suggestion for phrasing?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks Tallulah for your example. If these are issues with this guy's playing on a regular basis, and he already knows it, and he got this e-mail, I think he might have a hard time depersonalizing it as he would feel it was directed right at him, without being directed at him. Passive-aggressive. I can imagine it might make him feel angry, and singled out in a kind of embarrassing way.
    It's ironic, no? ENFJ thinks he's the one being passive-aggressive, but yeah, she's avoiding confrontation and being p-a, too.

    Here are some of the things that come to my mind:

    1.) Has anyone made a list of what the band's goals are, and what the goals are of all the members of the band? For the band: We are a ______ tribute band and we aim to create a musical experience that is exciting and enjoyable for us and for our audience in recreating the _______ music as 100% authentically as possible. For the members: we want to play twice a month, so we will need this many rehearsals, this is what we hope to make each gig so we need to aim for these venues (X, Y & Z types), this is how far we will travel to do a show. You might find, like the last tribute band I sang in did, that everyone's expectations varied wildly. It was one of the first aspects of the band's undoing.
    It's so funny to read this, because this is EXACTLY the kind of stuff he wants hammered out, and it makes ENFJ and I twitch, because we kind of feel like we already know that stuff and don't need to spell it out so precisely. It feels like rules to us. I thought it was a quirk of his, but I guess it's kind of a Te need, and it's something I have been overlooking in favor of my own preferences. I wonder if there is a way to compromise where Te gets what it needs but there is still flexibility...?

    2.) So then, if the band's goal is to recreate the music as faithfully as possible (being in an Elvis tribute band I totally get this, as there are big audience expectations) an individual's need or desire to be "outside the box" and "make the song their own" is obliterated and everyone knows the rules and parameters of their participation. Nobody has to be couched or coddled. The question is, "Does this sound like the original?" If the answer is no, it needs to be redone. The benchmarks are already set.

    3.) Has anyone said, "ENFP, can you recreate this section just like on the DVD?" Appeal to his desire to be perfect. Engage his Te, to want to focus on that goal to make it sound so close to the original no one can tell it apart. He won't do it to please the ENFJ but he will do it to try to make it perfect and thus fulfill the grander scope of the goals, and please all of you and thus himself in the process.
    Ooh, good points! You know, I'm really seeing how some people can feel like they're being stifled, because ENFJ and I see things so alike, and we're the "face" of the band. I'm going to have to print out this thread and study it.

    2) I think he must really need that...is that the Te that anchors Ne? Like, I have to have perimeters so I know how far my Ne can run wild? My view is a lot more flexible than that, because I know Heart so welll, and I know what songs fans are going to expect to hear note-for-note (Magic Man, etc), and what songs there's some room to play on, since they themselves have played around with them, and have done lots of different versions (Alone). The few covers we've done are mostly songs that Heart has covered (lots of Zeppelin, for instance), so it makes sense to tackle them, since Heart fans love it when they cover Zep, and it's a feather in our cap that we can do that stuff justice live.

    3) This is a good idea, re: the problem we're having now. Maybe I can get them together for a guitar practice and we can get out the cd/dvd and try to get it as close as possible. Make it a challenge.

    And for promoting the band, holy mackerel, let his Ne run wild! Get excited when he shares all the ideas, and he will cull some of them just by virtue of having the opportunity to say them out loud. Saddle that energy!
    Good idea! He's been a huge help with getting our promo stuff together. Huge.

    For contrast, here's what I would write for the same e-mail:

    ENFJ Lead:



    PB INFP 9:



    FWIW.

    Plus, seriously, have a great show tonight! You make me want to find a new band to sing in!
    Shoot, the quoted stuff didn't come out, so I'll have to go back and pick that up.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, he's not looking for yes / no, he's looking for them to be brainstormed out further to see if they are workable or not. Yes or no at the outset would crush the next creative phase of brainstorming, which is "Can we make this real?" "Does / would this fit with us and the real world?" Maybe have a couple of brainstorm sessions, and set a band mission statement at the same time?
    It does sound like we need a set-aside band meeting time for brainstorming, rather than just sandwiching them in during rehearsals. That might go a long way towards promoting band unity.

    I would see it as a departure too. I think it would make it harder to enact the idea of being a tribute band. Either you are or you aren't, and it's hard enough trying to be the best tribute band without all the other distracting ideas ... you can't be all things. Better to narrow the focus, or at least set the idea of writing your own stuff as an eventual destination, otherwise, there will be a lot more dissension in the group, IMO.
    See above, under 2)

    EDIT: my hubs just said y'all should be a heart AND lee aaron tribute band lol! Plus he wants to know if you are Nancy or Ann! (Men ...)
    I'm Nancy. I don't know Lee Aaron! Will have to look her up.
    Something Witty

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Okay, this seems crucial. ENFJ thinks she's being kinder by addressing the group, rather than singling one person out, but you're saying it's having the opposite effect on him? This is good to know! How can we broach the subject without sounding like we're being patronizing? I think Fe sometimes has issues with that b/c we feel like if we lead with reiterating someone's value that we're patronizing them to get to the part where we say what we want them to fix. Should we lead with the request, and then stress how valuable he is? Or should we lead with the validation first? Does anyone have a suggestion for phrasing?
    I don't think I really need to have my value told to me in words. Not these days anyway, when I was younger you would have got more out of me that way. It is more that I'd like to be told face to face. I'm used to being told straight, it is more that I can read where you are coming from if you say it to me. You know what I mean? It is fairly obvious where someone is coming from if they say it to you.

    Something like this happened at work recently and instead of talking to me specifically about it and then the group there was only the group discussion. I talked with another person involved about it, about being talked about changes you need to make directly and she didn't look like that was her thing. I guess it really does depend on the person. I was talking with my wife about it too and she agreed with the group approach, maybe I am just weird. She said "You want them to tell you straight?"

    It stings a bit to be told directly. But I prefer it that way. I want to know where I stand with someone.

    Hope this helps.

  10. #30
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    There's no use throwing a hurdle under a jumping horse. Further, if you treat this man like an ENFP, there's no use closing the barn door...

    ...watch what I tell ya.


    (Si anchors Ne.)

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