[Fi] Need Fi help!

[wolfy]

Not me exactly. I was surprised at myself for ripping into someone once, seeing him play my songs at a party, and then explicitly taking credit for them too. Not even playing them well either, which is what really stung. It's one thing to build things with people, but I have to say I claim ownership to something. If I can't even claim a song, then that's madness. Maybe this is a big difference with a 9.

That is a different thing, taking credit. That'd annoy me too. What I was meaning is that I am fairly flexible in how things turn out.

 

[A window to the soul]

Satine, excellent suggestions.

Leadership skillz 'lullah - you haz them.

Talullah, as far as the dynamics problem, it sounds like Ne is playing just as big a role here

No, he's not looking for yes / no, he's looking for them to be brainstormed out further to see if they are workable or not. Yes or no at the outset would crush the next creative phase of brainstorming, which is "Can we make this real?" "Does / would this fit with us and the real world?" Maybe have a couple of brainstorms, and set a band mission statement at the same time?

^^^

Oh, my gosh, so much great stuff, everyone! I will respond when I get back from my gig tonight--I better go get ready. Thanks for all your input! I very much appreciate it!!!

^ Also, he may really be ENTP; it's hard to say if you're misreading him and over-analyzing limited interactions in a band setting. Maybe he's pressing on and experimenting anyway in hopes that you love it (despite your initial opinions); *or* maybe he's trying to be funny by deviating from what he knows you want just because he sees you as setting nonsense limitations (I believe his intentions are different from ENFP in that the goal is a productive one to make you lighten up and play around with his ideas). I'm just bouncing ideas off of y'all here.

I'm thinking ENTP will have an abundance of #1.Optimism, #2.Determination, #3.Leadership qualities, #4.Candid Communication skills with a side of humor... a "think positive" attitude. All of which would effectively drive the band towards common goals and loads of fresh new ideas, if you will allow it. The more open/flexible you are, the easier that innovative pill will go down. As with any type, frequent goal blockages will lead to frustration and eventually anger.

On that note, he *did* test ENTP, so I'm *not* looking at him as having destructive passive-aggressive tendancies. I think if he had a legitimate problem with you, he would come right out and tell you. It will be interesting to see what he says.

 

[KDude]

That is a different thing, taking credit. That'd annoy me too. What I was meaning is that I am fairly flexible in how things turn out.

What is it you do artistically anyways? I'd like to know. I've heard you talk about exercising as art, but I've never heard you mention other mediums. That's cool and all, but I'm wondering where you're coming from. The typical artistic idea isn't very seed-like in many cases. At times, it's really more of a pregnancy...something tied into one's identity. And bands are more like collectives. Not unions. They could be hierarchies too, where one or a few dominate, but that's not my thing either.

Another thing...Do you even know what it's like to feel that presence of syncopation that shows up in a good band? There's always this moment when it happens, and it's never something you're ever ready for. Or set out to do. It's kind of magical really.. Enough to almost make you forget where you're at, and maybe even screw up because of that. It's trouble finding it. It's never really this thing where everyone's got this kind of casual attitude. Music is individuals with passion - and then respect for those like them. And even a healthy dose of competition too. There's all this going on, and that's why it's so great when it clicks. If there's a band out there with a more laid back attitude, then they suck.

 

[wolfy]

I don't do anything much other than training in the gym and teaching that. The closest thing I get to art is designing something for work or fun. I was talking about ideas in that sense and clarifying what I meant. I can see where it is different, how it would be tied to your identity in more artistic pursuits.

 

[skylights]

this is kind of you tallulah, i'm sure he will really appreciate you trying to help him.

Let him rant. Make him feel heard. Nod. Validate his frustrations. Then see if you guys can come up with a way to compromise or effectively deal with the situation (break out that Te ). If you're even able to get a little bit of his stuff suggested to the group, he'll feel much more appreciated. Also, explain to him that the ENFJ isn't meaning to make him feel this way, but it's hard to keep a group together like that and make everyone feel like they're getting what they want out of it AND make it work in reality as well. Explain this to him. Let him know that she doesn't hold a specific grudge against him, but that it's just the way she rolls and it might be something she still has to work on, she's still very good for the group. Explain him your observations, without saying 'and this part is your responsibility!'. Let him draw those conclusions himself. He will. Suggest also some tactics as to how to improve the communication between him and the enfj (since you seem to get on with both )

often having those ideas criticized (and I'm not saying that the band does that, but I can imagine) as if they are a finished idea, can hurt, as he's just brainstorming..it's a draft and he wants to get you guys enthused and help him figure out the potential for the idea (we often suck at execution and reality checks, this is why I love INTJs!). A lot of times, it hurts that people seem to 'lack vision' when they shoot something down without exploring it (I've found that FeTi users often don't float an idea in the group before it's finished..we're usually not like that!).

yeah. i've been in a group with an ENFJ leader before. it's very important that brainstorming is not for the sake of a final product. it's for the sake of creating new ideas, and then picking and choosing the best ones. it's strange to hear your brainstorming shot down immediately because it's not on topic. it's not supposed to be on topic, it's supposed to spark new ideas. and i am definitely more than happy to allow someone else to have final say - i don't really like that part anyway - but it's nice to have ideas checked out and appreciated.

maybe yall could establish something once a month where he shares a big compilation of all his ideas with the band, so that you guys don't have to worry about really listening and responding to his unrefined ideas all the time, and that gives him an impetus to refine his ideas.

One thing that came to mind reading the ENFJ mail is that it isn't to him. I'd rather have something said to me personally while being reinforced as an important member of the team, that my input has value. In situations where people feel that it is more diplomatic to address the group as a whole and I can see that I am at fault in some way I start to go over my value and look for clarification in some way. It digs on my mind and can undermine my confidence.

yeah, i relate to this a lot.

If I'm right, then my advice to you is some direct confrontation but done in an Fi-friendly manner. When my Ne gets into overdrive, you've gotta right it down on a post it note, tape it to the end of a 2x4, and whack me upside the head for me to get it.

LOL YES

Thanks Tallulah for your example. If these are issues with this guy's playing on a regular basis, and he already knows it, and he got this e-mail, I think he might have a hard time depersonalizing it as he would feel it was directed right at him, without being directed at him. Passive-aggressive. I can imagine it might make him feel angry, and singled out in a kind of embarrassing way.

so i figure you've already gone ahead on some plans but i think in general just talking to him one-on-one and asking how he feels about what he's having a hard time with, and letting him share his frustration with you, will make him feel safe and supported instead of criticized and singled out. i love PB's idea of establishing a sort of "mission statement" for the band - i am very loyal to ideals and a mission statement gives me something to weave my ideas and feelings around. and then giving him a concrete block of time to share his ideas would let him feel supported without having to constantly bother you guys. and then all that has to happen is people offer gratitude for his hard work, and tell him what they like about it, and if it's not quite right then talk about why and send him back to the drawing board. and hey, he might even share some really good, useful ideas.

i hope your show went well!!

 

[Tallulah]

Hey, guys, show went great! Everyone was in a really positive mood, and we didn't have much time to chat about more serious issues. I'm exhausted from the show now and still processing these new ideas, but I promise response stuff tomorrow when I'm not feeling dead on my feet.

 

[Tallulah]

K, little bit at a time...

There's a lot to sift through here. I can see some of it in myself. I don't even like bands per se, so that probably says something. I like jamming. It's so much easier to let things come out that way. It sounds like he needs to get some perspective though on the fact that some of his ideas are being taken seriously. He just has a large output to see it maybe. Hopefully some of the advice given here works out, but the only thing I can add is that when he does have an idea, definitely let it be known in one way or another. It needs to register in his ego, sounds like.

He definitely has a large output of ideas. Sometimes overwhelmingly so, but I like that he's excited about the band and making us better. Maybe we need to set aside a time where we can throw out ideas. Maybe more band meetings or something, and that way it's not a quick yes or no before moving on...we'd have time to explore.

He's lucky to have you looking out for him, trust me

About the bolded: Fi-users often don't wanna force anything on anyone else, as they hate having this done to him. He's trying to generate ideas coz a) it's what we do and b) he wants to help and is clearly enthused about the project. It probably hurts his feelings a little bit that others don't always share his vision on those ideas. Also, often having those ideas criticized (and I'm not saying that the band does that, but I can imagine) as if they are a finished idea, can hurt, as he's just brainstorming..it's a draft and he wants to get you guys enthused and help him figure out the potential for the idea (we often suck at execution and reality checks, this is why I love INTJs!). A lot of times, it hurts that people seem to 'lack vision' when they shoot something down without exploring it (I've found that FeTi users often don't float an idea in the group before it's finished..we're usually not like that!).

To get back to my point, his enthusiasm may make him seem pushy, but he really doesn't wanna push anything on anyone..at the same time he probably wants to carry his weight and finds this hard to do as he doesn't feel as free to be his creative self due to obvious limitations. It's somethign he fights with and isn't your or anyone's fault. Keeping the above in mind though in your communication with him might help make him feel more heard as well in the future though.

This is very insightful...I keep forgetting that some people extrovert their ideas before they're fully baked, and I like the brainstorming/collaborative process, but sometimes I have to have it framed like that, maybe...so I know we're just throwing ideas out, and some of them might not be feasible.

Talullah, as far as the dynamics problem, it sounds like Ne is playing just as big a role here as Fi. From what I'm hearing, the ENFJ band leader is repeatedly making requests to improve the dynamics and the ENFP guitarist is nodding his head but doing nothing to address the problem. If this is an accurate summary, then I'd say it sounds like Ne run amuck.

Hee, which the ENFJ reads as passive aggression, and everything goes waaaaay downhill from there!

Let me use myself as an example: there have been times when I've had to be coached on my performance and I nod my head and earnestly take the advice to heart. But then my dominant Ne goes on to the next shiny thing it sees and I do nothing to change my behavior because I'm so busy taking in new information that I forget to implement the feedback into my behavior. This is a problem for Ne doms I think. And the only way I learned to break it was having enough life experience of getting my ass chewed out for me to say to myself, "Maybe you need to do a little soul searching here." LOL!

I think Fi is also part of the problem too: Fi users (or at least I) have a pretty well-thought out vision of who they are. In this case, the ENFP guitar player thinks he's a pretty darn good guitar player... and he very well might be. I guess what I'm saying is that it's extra hard for an ENFP to implement changes in their behavior, if the changes go against their "idea" of who they are... or their essence. I don't know if this makes sense, but that's the best way I know how to explain it.

I think so...I think I've even felt that way sometimes in the past...kind of like the vision of yourself as the thing is almost the same thing as the thing itself, so it gets murky? Like the vision is as much payoff as the reality?

He really is a good guitar player. He's gotten sloppy with certain things lately, though; things he'd never have been sloppy about in the beginning, but he had more to prove then, maybe.

So it sounds to me like you've got an ENFP with his Ne in overdrive (aka not implementing new information because he's too focused on taking in more new information) and an Fi function that's giving push back because for him to change he'd have to do a rethink of his Fi vision of himself as a band member. <- Never pleasant, but a required skill for a mature adult.

If I'm right, then my advice to you is some direct confrontation but done in an Fi-friendly manner. When my Ne gets into overdrive, you've gotta right it down on a post it note, tape it to the end of a 2x4, and whack me upside the head for me to get it. As far as how to have an Fi-user friendly conversation... #1- talk to him in private. #2 - Remind him of his other Fi values. There are Fi values, then there are Fi values. In other words, tap into a more important Fi value, and he'll do an Fi rethink on his behavior.

For example, I may want to be able to express my Fi-ness and be true to my vision of myself. (<-Current Fi value driving my behavior.) But I would be horrified if I were reminded that I was working against the bests interests of the band, or if I thought I was being inconsiderate of other band members. (<- Higher Fi value I'd realize I'm violating.) If I were in the ENFP's shoes then I'd probably burst into tears and then spend a week apologizing to everyone. (That's another thing, don't expect him not to show his upsetness. Just remember he's probably most upset with himself. Let him be upset and work through it himself.)

Hope this helps! Let us know how your ENFP problem progresses.

Very helpful, thanks! I will have to think about how to tap into another Fi value without making it sound like Fe-get-in-line-and-don't-let-us-down. Can you think of a way to couch that in Fi terms? The stuff he's not fixing kind of brings down our real estate, even though a lot of other stuff he does is really good. We sound so much more polished when everyone is mindful of the nitpicky, musician-y stuff like dynamics.

More to come...

 

[Tallulah]

MOAR STUFF:

One thing that came to mind reading the ENFJ mail is that it isn't to him. I'd rather have something said to me personally while being reinforced as an important member of the team, that my input has value. In situations where people feel that it is more diplomatic to address the group as a whole and I can see that I am at fault in some way I start to go over my value and look for clarification in some way. It digs on my mind and can undermine my confidence.

Okay, this seems crucial. ENFJ thinks she's being kinder by addressing the group, rather than singling one person out, but you're saying it's having the opposite effect on him? This is good to know! How can we broach the subject without sounding like we're being patronizing? I think Fe sometimes has issues with that b/c we feel like if we lead with reiterating someone's value that we're patronizing them to get to the part where we say what we want them to fix. Should we lead with the request, and then stress how valuable he is? Or should we lead with the validation first? Does anyone have a suggestion for phrasing?

Thanks Tallulah for your example. If these are issues with this guy's playing on a regular basis, and he already knows it, and he got this e-mail, I think he might have a hard time depersonalizing it as he would feel it was directed right at him, without being directed at him. Passive-aggressive. I can imagine it might make him feel angry, and singled out in a kind of embarrassing way.

It's ironic, no? ENFJ thinks he's the one being passive-aggressive, but yeah, she's avoiding confrontation and being p-a, too.

Here are some of the things that come to my mind:

1.) Has anyone made a list of what the band's goals are, and what the goals are of all the members of the band? For the band: We are a ______ tribute band and we aim to create a musical experience that is exciting and enjoyable for us and for our audience in recreating the _______ music as 100% authentically as possible. For the members: we want to play twice a month, so we will need this many rehearsals, this is what we hope to make each gig so we need to aim for these venues (X, Y & Z types), this is how far we will travel to do a show. You might find, like the last tribute band I sang in did, that everyone's expectations varied wildly. It was one of the first aspects of the band's undoing.

It's so funny to read this, because this is EXACTLY the kind of stuff he wants hammered out, and it makes ENFJ and I twitch, because we kind of feel like we already know that stuff and don't need to spell it out so precisely. It feels like rules to us. I thought it was a quirk of his, but I guess it's kind of a Te need, and it's something I have been overlooking in favor of my own preferences. I wonder if there is a way to compromise where Te gets what it needs but there is still flexibility...?

2.) So then, if the band's goal is to recreate the music as faithfully as possible (being in an Elvis tribute band I totally get this, as there are big audience expectations) an individual's need or desire to be "outside the box" and "make the song their own" is obliterated and everyone knows the rules and parameters of their participation. Nobody has to be couched or coddled. The question is, "Does this sound like the original?" If the answer is no, it needs to be redone. The benchmarks are already set.

3.) Has anyone said, "ENFP, can you recreate this section just like on the DVD?" Appeal to his desire to be perfect. Engage his Te, to want to focus on that goal to make it sound so close to the original no one can tell it apart. He won't do it to please the ENFJ but he will do it to try to make it perfect and thus fulfill the grander scope of the goals, and please all of you and thus himself in the process.

Ooh, good points! You know, I'm really seeing how some people can feel like they're being stifled, because ENFJ and I see things so alike, and we're the "face" of the band. I'm going to have to print out this thread and study it.

2) I think he must really need that...is that the Te that anchors Ne? Like, I have to have perimeters so I know how far my Ne can run wild? My view is a lot more flexible than that, because I know Heart so welll, and I know what songs fans are going to expect to hear note-for-note (Magic Man, etc), and what songs there's some room to play on, since they themselves have played around with them, and have done lots of different versions (Alone). The few covers we've done are mostly songs that Heart has covered (lots of Zeppelin, for instance), so it makes sense to tackle them, since Heart fans love it when they cover Zep, and it's a feather in our cap that we can do that stuff justice live.

3) This is a good idea, re: the problem we're having now. Maybe I can get them together for a guitar practice and we can get out the cd/dvd and try to get it as close as possible. Make it a challenge.

And for promoting the band, holy mackerel, let his Ne run wild! Get excited when he shares all the ideas, and he will cull some of them just by virtue of having the opportunity to say them out loud. Saddle that energy!

Good idea! He's been a huge help with getting our promo stuff together. Huge.

For contrast, here's what I would write for the same e-mail:

ENFJ Lead:



PB INFP 9:



FWIW.

Plus, seriously, have a great show tonight! You make me want to find a new band to sing in!

Shoot, the quoted stuff didn't come out, so I'll have to go back and pick that up.

No, he's not looking for yes / no, he's looking for them to be brainstormed out further to see if they are workable or not. Yes or no at the outset would crush the next creative phase of brainstorming, which is "Can we make this real?" "Does / would this fit with us and the real world?" Maybe have a couple of brainstorm sessions, and set a band mission statement at the same time?

It does sound like we need a set-aside band meeting time for brainstorming, rather than just sandwiching them in during rehearsals. That might go a long way towards promoting band unity.

I would see it as a departure too. I think it would make it harder to enact the idea of being a tribute band. Either you are or you aren't, and it's hard enough trying to be the best tribute band without all the other distracting ideas ... you can't be all things. Better to narrow the focus, or at least set the idea of writing your own stuff as an eventual destination, otherwise, there will be a lot more dissension in the group, IMO.

See above, under 2)

EDIT: my hubs just said y'all should be a heart AND lee aaron tribute band lol! Plus he wants to know if you are Nancy or Ann! (Men ...)

I'm Nancy. I don't know Lee Aaron! Will have to look her up.

 

[wolfy]

Okay, this seems crucial. ENFJ thinks she's being kinder by addressing the group, rather than singling one person out, but you're saying it's having the opposite effect on him? This is good to know! How can we broach the subject without sounding like we're being patronizing? I think Fe sometimes has issues with that b/c we feel like if we lead with reiterating someone's value that we're patronizing them to get to the part where we say what we want them to fix. Should we lead with the request, and then stress how valuable he is? Or should we lead with the validation first? Does anyone have a suggestion for phrasing?

I don't think I really need to have my value told to me in words. Not these days anyway, when I was younger you would have got more out of me that way. It is more that I'd like to be told face to face. I'm used to being told straight, it is more that I can read where you are coming from if you say it to me. You know what I mean? It is fairly obvious where someone is coming from if they say it to you.

Something like this happened at work recently and instead of talking to me specifically about it and then the group there was only the group discussion. I talked with another person involved about it, about being talked about changes you need to make directly and she didn't look like that was her thing. I guess it really does depend on the person. I was talking with my wife about it too and she agreed with the group approach, maybe I am just weird. She said "You want them to tell you straight?"

It stings a bit to be told directly. But I prefer it that way. I want to know where I stand with someone.

Hope this helps.

 

[A window to the soul]

There's no use throwing a hurdle under a jumping horse. Further, if you treat this man like an ENFP, there's no use closing the barn door...

...watch what I tell ya.


(Si anchors Ne.)

 

[Tallulah]

I don't think I really need to have my value told to me in words. Not these days anyway, when I was younger you would have got more out of me that way. It is more that I'd like to be told face to face. I'm used to being told straight, it is more that I can read where you are coming from if you say it to me. You know what I mean? It is fairly obvious where someone is coming from if they say it to you.

Something like this happened at work recently and instead of talking to me specifically about it and then the group there was only the group discussion. I talked with another person involved about it, about being talked about changes you need to make directly and she didn't look like that was her thing. I guess it really does depend on the person. I was talking with my wife about it too and she agreed with the group approach, maybe I am just weird. She said "You want them to tell you straight?"

It stings a bit to be told directly. But I prefer it that way. I want to know where I stand with someone.

Hope this helps.

This is good to know! I'm not sure if he's normally like that or not, but it might be that he'd appreciate the straightforwardness if it were done in a one-on-one manner. I think he just gets keyed up if he's asked to work on something when there are others around.

There's no use throwing a hurdle under a jumping horse. Further, if you treat this man like an ENFP, there's no use closing the barn door...

...watch what I tell ya.


(Si anchors Ne.)

Hee, maybe I'm just tired, but I'm not sure I'm following. Does that mean a little encouragement will make him run amok?

More to come!

 

[skylights]

agree with wolfy about getting it told to you straight. it's gonna sting either way, might as well be in a "safe" 1-on-1 where i'm not worrying about how i'm coming off to everyone. when it's in a group i just want to run and hide... when it's not addressed directly at me somehow it feels like public humiliation to me. like everyone knows who we're talking about, and someone at the top decided that the shame provoked by addressing it in front of everyone would make it more likely for me to change. except it actually just makes me want to throw things and cry.

This is good to know! I'm not sure if he's normally like that or not, but it might be that he'd appreciate the straightforwardness if it were done in a one-on-one manner. I think he just gets keyed up if he's asked to work on something when there are others around.

yeah. i can see how it could feel embarrassing and frustrating. what happens to me is that i try to perform whatever again, but i'm aware that others are expecting a better job, so i get all worried that i'm being judged, and then i don't pay attention, and then i mess up again. bad cycle. if it's addressed in private then i can work on it in private, where it's easier.

not that all of this necessarily applies to your ENFP, but food for thought. if he's feeling that way then perhaps it explains some of his resistance.

 

[Tallulah]

agree with wolfy about getting it told to you straight. it's gonna sting either way, might as well be in a "safe" 1-on-1 where i'm not worrying about how i'm coming off to everyone. when it's in a group i just want to run and hide... when it's not addressed directly at me somehow it feels like public humiliation to me. like everyone knows who we're talking about, and someone at the top decided that the shame provoked by addressing it in front of everyone would make it more likely for me to change. except it actually just makes me want to throw things and cry.



yeah. i can see how it could feel embarrassing and frustrating. what happens to me is that i try to perform whatever again, but i'm aware that others are expecting a better job, so i get all worried that i'm being judged, and then i don't pay attention, and then i mess up again. bad cycle. if it's addressed in private then i can work on it in private, where it's easier.

not that all of this necessarily applies to your ENFP, but food for thought. if he's feeling that way then perhaps it explains some of his resistance.

This definitely makes sense...and it's interesting because for me, I'm less embarrassed if I'm not being called out, probably because I know everyone is probably going to think it's about them, too, and it allows me to save face. But it seems to work the opposite way for y'all. Do you think it matters who does the pulling aside? Sometimes I feel like it's not my place because I'm not really the band leader (we don't have an official one; it's a democracy, mostly, but ENFJ singer and our bass player started the band, so they're sort of de facto leaders). But I do know I'm way more likely to try and reach out to him in a way he can relate to than she will be.

 

[uumlau]

Tallulah: good job asking about the Fi aspects of this! It's exactly what you need.

This is very insightful...I keep forgetting that some people extrovert their ideas before they're fully baked, and I like the brainstorming/collaborative process, but sometimes I have to have it framed like that, maybe...so I know we're just throwing ideas out, and some of them might not be feasible.

Heh, it's funny that you're saying this as an INTP: I'm used to having to be patient waiting for INTP ideas to gel. I guess it's different because music is "F"?

He really is a good guitar player. He's gotten sloppy with certain things lately, though; things he'd never have been sloppy about in the beginning, but he had more to prove then, maybe.

I bet you could say the bolded to him verbatim. The first sentence has the requisite appreciation, and the 2nd has an explicit declaration of what he needs to improve on. I bet he has no issues with improving on things that the rest of you believe he needs to improve, but the typical ENFJ dancing around the issue (by addressing the group) won't work.

All Fi needs is to be appreciated, and constructive criticism on how to improve. In practice, this means identifying areas of excellence that don't need improvement (which lets him feel confident and appreciated), and the identifying areas in need of improvement, with which he will likely agree. To him, it's just an honest (Te) assessment, as long as there is no "emo" content to the criticism. That's the hard part: it's difficult for Fe criticism to not come off as "emo."

Very helpful, thanks! I will have to think about how to tap into another Fi value without making it sound like Fe-get-in-line-and-don't-let-us-down. Can you think of a way to couch that in Fi terms? The stuff he's not fixing kind of brings down our real estate, even though a lot of other stuff he does is really good. We sound so much more polished when everyone is mindful of the nitpicky, musician-y stuff like dynamics.

Just remember that he views the technical stuff in Te terms, not Fe terms. In Te terms, he will be very precise and even self-critical in terms of what needs improvement. The mixup with Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti is that Fe/Ti is fine with emo-criticism, while Te can't make sense of emo-criticism and Fi is hurt by emo-criticism. The criticism needs to be emotion-free, factual, objective, and obvious. The Fe-emo-criticism has tones of "you're not good enough for us," while Te-objective-criticism, for him, gets to the point of, "here are areas for improvement." PB and Esoteric are good sources for the exact words to use, since as an INTJ, I tend to be more harsh than most Fi-types would appreciate. But overall, you don't want to soft-pedal the criticism.

You just want to remove all trace of condemnation, yet without being "nice." Ideally, one would "glow" with appreciation and love (Fi), even as one "harshly" lists what needs improvement (Te).

 

[skylights]

This definitely makes sense...and it's interesting because for me, I'm less embarrassed if I'm not being called out, probably because I know everyone is probably going to think it's about them, too, and it allows me to save face. But it seems to work the opposite way for y'all. Do you think it matters who does the pulling aside? Sometimes I feel like it's not my place because I'm not really the band leader (we don't have an official one; it's a democracy, mostly, but ENFJ singer and our bass player started the band, so they're sort of de facto leaders). But I do know I'm way more likely to try and reach out to him in a way he can relate to than she will be.

haha, that's a good point about everyone else wondering if it's them too! i should remember that

it actually might take a little pressure off if it weren't the ENFJ or other leading member - i don't think he will question your authority or anything, as long as you support him in a Fi-way, as uumlau described - appreciating him and complementing him on what he does well, and acknowledging that he is an important member of the band. and actually if you're thinking totally in Te-Fi terms, there isn't really as much a feeling of "place" in the social sense - what matters Te-wise is whether you're right about the facts (where he's not doing as well) or not. if you present logical evidence for what he should change, then he's likely to agree with it. you could almost come to it thinking how you would talk to a best friend if they were in this situation - creating a feeling of "we are close, you are safe with me." ideally he'll feel like that with every band member - a positive 1:1 feeling. with Fe leadership he may be lacking that a bit. NFJ leaders are excellent, imo, but can feel a bit distant.

I bet you could say the bolded to him verbatim. The first sentence has the requisite appreciation, and the 2nd has an explicit declaration of what he needs to improve on. I bet he has no issues with improving on things that the rest of you believe he needs to improve, but the typical ENFJ dancing around the issue (by addressing the group) won't work.

All Fi needs is to be appreciated, and constructive criticism on how to improve. In practice, this means identifying areas of excellence that don't need improvement (which lets him feel confident and appreciated), and the identifying areas in need of improvement, with which he will likely agree.

tallulah you could, just as an example, go something along the lines of "hey can we talk? i really liked ____ that you were doing last night (let him get excited and talk about it). you really are a good guitar player, and everyone really appreciates _____. but i feel like i should tell you it seems like you've kind of gotten sloppy with a few things lately, and i think it's kind of throwing the band off sometimes. are you having trouble with anything lately?" (it's possible that he may open up and spill some emotional gobbity-goo about feeling criticized and singled out. you can totally just affirm that you don't think anyone meant to, they were just trying to be nice about it, and everyone really appreciates (good things) he does as a band member.)

and then you can talk about whatever he's doing - key is to offer him some ideas for improvement, so it doesn't just feel like criticism. the sandwich method is great too - one supporting statement; one criticism; one supporting statement. it's good in terms of the talk overall, but also in terms of couching overall points. "you're great with expression, but sometimes your dynamics are throwing off the overall (adj) feeling of (song). i love that energy though, maybe you can try to transfer it to (other song)." etc. the concept of the feeling of a song will probably be significant to him, he may even want to discuss the feeling of it. perhaps he's interpreting certain things differently, and it could help to have someone who sees it in a different light reframe it for him (with Ne dom he should be quick to accept and accommodate new interpretations). asking him to redirect, as opposed to suppress, his creativity should be helpful as well. when i'm working on a project, i definitely don't mind redirecting my energies, but i hate feeling like they've gone totally unappreciated and someone just wants to make them stop. i guess the concept of "affirm and redirect" could apply to the whole conversation.

uumlau is right, PB and EW are excellent sources of Fi-speak. i suspect you don't need to stress too much about Te wording as long as you are clear with the Fi wording - making sure to be clear that you and the others like and value him. if that's covered, i think things should go fairly smoothly otherwise. when i'm in a situation where i am to receive criticism, i just want it to be as clear, direct, and fast as possible, because i want it to be over with and i want to fix it asap. he may even ask if there's any other things you think he could work on. if he does start freaking out for whatever reason, reassurance that you value him and are talking to him because you like him and what he does for the band should cover it. he may need to get a little emo out if he's felt frustrated about this, which unfortunately i suspect he may - if anything, it should be a little storm that passes quickly though. you may want to keep in mind that if this happens, he may divert to language that feels harsh to you, so that you don't get hurt too

anyway, it probably seems like a whole lot of ridiculous positive support, but i promise it'll be worth your efforts. the more he comes off feeling like he's an important member of the band, the more he's going to be enthused to work on the things you tell him about. at the end of things, he'll probably very, very much appreciate that you came to talk to him.

 

[Lady_X]

i think enfps can handle blunt a bit easier then disguised criticism. you don't really need to pussyfoot around it...no need to walk on eggshells and so carefully choose your words. that almost always just feels patronizing. maybe just state that you all have to work together. not one of you can be out of sync. tell him that he needs to pay more attention to the sound as a whole....just flat out tell him what you need from him and tell him that you hope he'd tell you the same.

also should say that i think the way you are trying to approach this is awesome...just stress to him that everyone has an equal voice and should be allowed to address concerns openly and that it takes everyone working together...you just need to get on the same page and get him to fully understand what you're trying to achieve.

just read some of the above responses and think they're right on too.

 

[Orangey]

One thing, though. Since Fi is apparently so concerned with "integrity," wouldn't the sandwich method come off as a bit disingenuous? That is, wouldn't the compliment-criticism-compliment format make it seem like the compliments were just thrown in there to protect the guy's feelings, and not really because they were real compliments?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Ideally, one would "glow" with appreciation and love (Fi), even as one "harshly" lists what needs improvement (Te).

Yes, exactly that.

One thing, though. Since Fi is apparently so concerned with "integrity," wouldn't the sandwich method come off as a bit disingenuous? That is, wouldn't the compliment-criticism-compliment format make it seem like the compliments were just thrown in there to protect the guy's feelings, and not really because they were real compliments?

Affirmation or compliments are not disingenuous when they are sincere. And if one attempts a fake compliment just to open a door, it won't get very far, as even a very young Fi-er can tell the difference between a real compliment and a fake, unearned one.

As for the "sandwich technique" I favor one where the negatives come out first, then followed with relevant positives. I don't think starting with a positive to be necessary when you end with a whole whack of positives.

EDIT: The reason why is because I like to avoid the word "but" ... the sandwich often comes out as "You are doing a great job BUT blah blah blah negative don't hear anything else you say for the rest of the discussion". Starting with the challenge areas, then with affirmation, means you don't have to get involved with that dangerous word.

BUT ... but nothing!

 

[uumlau]

One thing, though. Since Fi is apparently so concerned with "integrity," wouldn't the sandwich method come off as a bit disingenuous? That is, wouldn't the compliment-criticism-compliment format make it seem like the compliments were just thrown in there to protect the guy's feelings, and not really because they were real compliments?

This is true to a degree, that Fi can tell the difference between wheat bread and white bread "sandwiches," and Tallulah will need to watch out for that. The main way to do it is to keep it simple and concrete. A vague, "I really value you," will sound fake without either a concrete example or exactly the right tone of voice. To make it concrete, just mention a particular song/piece where his playing shines; the concreteness makes it obvious that you're paying attention to his contribution, and thus value him, and thus any criticism is along the lines of, "You're really good on this piece, so what's missing from your playing on this other one?"

Also, it helps that Tallulah is there in person, and really does like him want to help, and for the most part, that will come through as "integrity." So it's more a matter of being aware of the potential for miscommunication and not assuming that what is obvious to her is obvious to him.

 

[Tallulah]

I had wondered about the above, too. AND about how to avoid the "but," so it won't sound like I'm only saying nice things to get to the "but..."

Still taking stuff in, and will write more responses later! I gotta prepare for my teacher evaluation tomorrow, so my attention span is not the greatest right now. But I am really learning some good stuff here.