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Thread: Need Fi help!

  1. #11
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    There's a lot to sift through here. I can see some of it in myself. I don't even like bands per se, so that probably says something. I like jamming. It's so much easier to let things come out that way. It sounds like he needs to get some perspective though on the fact that some of his ideas are being taken seriously. He just has a large output to see it maybe. Hopefully some of the advice given here works out, but the only thing I can add is that when he does have an idea, definitely let it be known in one way or another. It needs to register in his ego, sounds like.

  2. #12
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This definitely seems like something he would respond to. I'll try it with him tonight if I get a chance! Thanks!

    Thanks, everyone, for your input, too. I think it's definitely a complicated situation, and there are sensitivities beyond what would befit the situation, because of the built-up frustrations. It's also a bit complicated with ENFP guy because he's always, always thinking about troubleshooting about some stuff, advertising the band, etc. He just likes generating ideas, so it's natural that because of the extreme output of them, there will be lots of them that are unusable. What's funny, too, is that, being aware of him being shot down a lot, I've made an effort for him to get his way on other things, and then he defers, saying he'll just let the band decide. He's so hard for me to read sometimes. He's a fabulous guy, though, and I really want to keep him happy.
    He's lucky to have you looking out for him, trust me

    About the bolded: Fi-users often don't wanna force anything on anyone else, as they hate having this done to him. He's trying to generate ideas coz a) it's what we do and b) he wants to help and is clearly enthused about the project. It probably hurts his feelings a little bit that others don't always share his vision on those ideas. Also, often having those ideas criticized (and I'm not saying that the band does that, but I can imagine) as if they are a finished idea, can hurt, as he's just brainstorming..it's a draft and he wants to get you guys enthused and help him figure out the potential for the idea (we often suck at execution and reality checks, this is why I love INTJs!). A lot of times, it hurts that people seem to 'lack vision' when they shoot something down without exploring it (I've found that FeTi users often don't float an idea in the group before it's finished..we're usually not like that!).

    To get back to my point, his enthusiasm may make him seem pushy, but he really doesn't wanna push anything on anyone..at the same time he probably wants to carry his weight and finds this hard to do as he doesn't feel as free to be his creative self due to obvious limitations. It's somethign he fights with and isn't your or anyone's fault. Keeping the above in mind though in your communication with him might help make him feel more heard as well in the future though.

    Lastly, I was wondering..since it is a cover band (I dunno how busy and serious you guys get), perhaps you can experiment with making certain cover songs your own? Putting your own spin on it? It might give the drummer and the enfp the chance to put their artistic touch on it, play around with it, without it necessarily being used for performances? I dunno what the rules are though within your band
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  3. #13
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Talullah, as far as the dynamics problem, it sounds like Ne is playing just as big a role here as Fi. From what I'm hearing, the ENFJ band leader is repeatedly making requests to improve the dynamics and the ENFP guitarist is nodding his head but doing nothing to address the problem. If this is an accurate summary, then I'd say it sounds like Ne run amuck.

    Let me use myself as an example: there have been times when I've had to be coached on my performance and I nod my head and earnestly take the advice to heart. But then my dominant Ne goes on to the next shiny thing it sees and I do nothing to change my behavior because I'm so busy taking in new information that I forget to implement the feedback into my behavior. This is a problem for Ne doms I think. And the only way I learned to break it was having enough life experience of getting my ass chewed out for me to say to myself, "Maybe you need to do a little soul searching here." LOL!

    I think Fi is also part of the problem too: Fi users (or at least I) have a pretty well-thought out vision of who they are. In this case, the ENFP guitar player thinks he's a pretty darn good guitar player... and he very well might be. I guess what I'm saying is that it's extra hard for an ENFP to implement changes in their behavior, if the changes go against their "idea" of who they are... or their essence. I don't know if this makes sense, but that's the best way I know how to explain it.

    So it sounds to me like you've got an ENFP with his Ne in overdrive (aka not implementing new information because he's too focused on taking in more new information) and an Fi function that's giving push back because for him to change he'd have to do a rethink of his Fi vision of himself as a band member. <- Never pleasant, but a required skill for a mature adult.

    If I'm right, then my advice to you is some direct confrontation but done in an Fi-friendly manner. When my Ne gets into overdrive, you've gotta right it down on a post it note, tape it to the end of a 2x4, and whack me upside the head for me to get it. As far as how to have an Fi-user friendly conversation... #1- talk to him in private. #2 - Remind him of his other Fi values. There are Fi values, then there are Fi values. In other words, tap into a more important Fi value, and he'll do an Fi rethink on his behavior.

    For example, I may want to be able to express my Fi-ness and be true to my vision of myself. (<-Current Fi value driving my behavior.) But I would be horrified if I were reminded that I was working against the bests interests of the band, or if I thought I was being inconsiderate of other band members. (<- Higher Fi value I'd realize I'm violating.) If I were in the ENFP's shoes then I'd probably burst into tears and then spend a week apologizing to everyone. (That's another thing, don't expect him not to show his upsetness. Just remember he's probably most upset with himself. Let him be upset and work through it himself.)

    Hope this helps! Let us know how your ENFP problem progresses.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This definitely seems like something he would respond to. I'll try it with him tonight if I get a chance! Thanks!

    Thanks, everyone, for your input, too. I think it's definitely a complicated situation, and there are sensitivities beyond what would befit the situation, because of the built-up frustrations. It's also a bit complicated with ENFP guy because he's always, always thinking about troubleshooting about some stuff, advertising the band, etc. He just likes generating ideas, so it's natural that because of the extreme output of them, there will be lots of them that are unusable. What's funny, too, is that, being aware of him being shot down a lot, I've made an effort for him to get his way on other things, and then he defers, saying he'll just let the band decide. He's so hard for me to read sometimes. He's a fabulous guy, though, and I really want to keep him happy.
    I can really relate to this and a lot of the other stuff you said.

    It doesn't bother me having ideas not work or shot down because the value is in idea generation. Not in having them go all the way through. They are never completely yours once they get through anyway.

    One thing that came to mind reading the ENFJ mail is that it isn't to him. I'd rather have something said to me personally while being reinforced as an important member of the team, that my input has value. In situations where people feel that it is more diplomatic to address the group as a whole and I can see that I am at fault in some way I start to go over my value and look for clarification in some way. It digs on my mind and can undermine my confidence.

  5. #15
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post

    everybody remember <Club Name> is all about low stage volume. we want to hear everybody, and def want to hear the leads. but everybody do what you can to remember they like it at a lower volume here. it will help me, too. i am hoarse and fighting it.

    we have fallen off the dynamics wagon again, too. lol. the beginning of stuff like "love alive" and "soul of the sea" and "magic man" verses are kinda harder than would be ideal. and "barracuda" and the big crash on "alone" are kinda less dramatic than they could be. can we tweak this a bit, maybe tonight?
    This is fairly typical for her when she's being diplomatic. She will try to couch things in terms of what needs to be done, trying not to call anyone out, even though she's hoping ENFP will take it to heart. Where things can get out of hand is when she's asked for the same things to be considered several times, and no progress has been made. Then she wants to lower the axe a bit, because she feels ignored or she feels like he's deliberately NOT doing it to get on her nerves. I'm honestly not sure what the truth is, there. It seems odd that he keeps doing the same things. But I do kind of feel like he has a blind spot when it comes to dynamics, for some reason.

    She can be pretty blunt and forceful when she's reached the end of her rope. But he can be pretty sensitive when everyone's still being polite. Our INTJ second guitarist won't really bring anything up to him because he feels like he doesn't know how to get a good result.

    I've found that I can get him to take things a little better if it's just one-on-one or when we're at a guitar rehearsal. But I also don't want to come to him with a litany of things that it seems like I've been saving up that he needs to fix, because I don't want him to feel like we've all been sitting around talking about all the crap he needs to do, and because it's not really my place. I will bring things up one at a time and when I feel like we're not capturing the spirit of the song, since I'm probably the biggest fan of this music.
    Thanks Tallulah for your example. If these are issues with this guy's playing on a regular basis, and he already knows it, and he got this e-mail, I think he might have a hard time depersonalizing it as he would feel it was directed right at him, without being directed at him. Passive-aggressive. I can imagine it might make him feel angry, and singled out in a kind of embarrassing way.

    Here are some of the things that come to my mind:

    1.) Has anyone made a list of what the band's goals are, and what the goals are of all the members of the band? For the band: We are a ______ tribute band and we aim to create a musical experience that is exciting and enjoyable for us and for our audience in recreating the _______ music as 100% authentically as possible. For the members: we want to play twice a month, so we will need this many rehearsals, this is what we hope to make each gig so we need to aim for these venues (X, Y & Z types), this is how far we will travel to do a show. You might find, like the last tribute band I sang in did, that everyone's expectations varied wildly. It was one of the first aspects of the band's undoing.

    2.) So then, if the band's goal is to recreate the music as faithfully as possible (being in an Elvis tribute band I totally get this, as there are big audience expectations) an individual's need or desire to be "outside the box" and "make the song their own" is obliterated and everyone knows the rules and parameters of their participation. Nobody has to be couched or coddled. The question is, "Does this sound like the original?" If the answer is no, it needs to be redone. The benchmarks are already set.

    3.) Has anyone said, "ENFP, can you recreate this section just like on the DVD?" Appeal to his desire to be perfect. Engage his Te, to want to focus on that goal to make it sound so close to the original no one can tell it apart. He won't do it to please the ENFJ but he will do it to try to make it perfect and thus fulfill the grander scope of the goals, and please all of you and thus himself in the process.

    And for promoting the band, holy mackerel, let his Ne run wild! Get excited when he shares all the ideas, and he will cull some of them just by virtue of having the opportunity to say them out loud. Saddle that energy!

    For contrast, here's what I would write for the same e-mail:

    ENFJ Lead:

    everybody remember <Club Name> is all about low stage volume. we want to hear everybody, and def want to hear the leads. but everybody do what you can to remember they like it at a lower volume here. it will help me, too. i am hoarse and fighting it.

    we have fallen off the dynamics wagon again, too. lol. the beginning of stuff like "love alive" and "soul of the sea" and "magic man" verses are kinda harder than would be ideal. and "barracuda" and the big crash on "alone" are kinda less dramatic than they could be. can we tweak this a bit, maybe tonight?
    PB INFP 9:

    Thanks all for the great rehearsal this week. I am so excited for this show! As a quick reminder, as we already talked about, here is the stuff we agreed to work on tonight.

    Vocals: our harmonies are coming together well and we talked about getting a better balance between ourselves and the guys - let's go over this during sound check to make sure everyone is being heard.

    Lead Guitar - decreasing the volume should fit well with our venue too (ya, as we discussed, they are an older crowd, so we have to play a little quieter than usual lol!) So let's use those two songs we've had dynamics issues with ("love alive" and "soul of the sea") during sound check to ensure we're targeting a good balance and getting the drama we're shooting for.

    Drummer Boy: blah blah blah

    And me, still struggling with the voice a bit, but I have been doing my warm-ups and it's coming 'round. But the goal is to rock it!

    See you all tonight!
    FWIW.

    Plus, seriously, have a great show tonight! You make me want to find a new band to sing in!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #16
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    He's lucky to have you looking out for him, trust me

    About the bolded: Fi-users often don't wanna force anything on anyone else, as they hate having this done to him. He's trying to generate ideas coz a) it's what we do and b) he wants to help and is clearly enthused about the project. It probably hurts his feelings a little bit that others don't always share his vision on those ideas. Also, often having those ideas criticized (and I'm not saying that the band does that, but I can imagine) as if they are a finished idea, can hurt, as he's just brainstorming..it's a draft and he wants to get you guys enthused and help him figure out the potential for the idea (we often suck at execution and reality checks, this is why I love INTJs!). A lot of times, it hurts that people seem to 'lack vision' when they shoot something down without exploring it (I've found that FeTi users often don't float an idea in the group before it's finished..we're usually not like that!).
    Oh, this is really helpful! I have always been unsure what he wants us to do with the ideas, since some of them are kind of out-there, and it just seemed like we were supposed to give a yes or no. So maybe we can come up with a way to float them out here and play with them and turn them into something workable.

    To get back to my point, his enthusiasm may make him seem pushy, but he really doesn't wanna push anything on anyone..at the same time he probably wants to carry his weight and finds this hard to do as he doesn't feel as free to be his creative self due to obvious limitations. It's somethign he fights with and isn't your or anyone's fault. Keeping the above in mind though in your communication with him might help make him feel more heard as well in the future though.
    I can definitely see this in him, now that you frame it for me. He does seem to struggle with wanting to contribute, but not wanting to be pushy. What's hard sometimes is that he has ideas about how things should work, and sometimes wants to stick to those EXACT ideas, rather than refining them to something more workable for this particular situation. Sometimes he really wants to Te things that I still want to keep flexible and un-nailed, and that confuses me, because I see no reason to push something into a box when it could be approached from a different angle. (One example: We do song from this particular band, but there are some songs that are covers from other bands that the original band has covered, or we do songs that are in the same spirit of the original band. For him, this meant, "oh, we're opening the floodgates to do all non-trib songs. We're abandoning the idea of a trib. For ENFJ and me, it just meant we were including a few extra songs, and we'd continue to learn other trib songs. But for him, it was important to see it as a departure. I never understood that.)

    Lastly, I was wondering..since it is a cover band (I dunno how busy and serious you guys get), perhaps you can experiment with making certain cover songs your own? Putting your own spin on it? It might give the drummer and the enfp the chance to put their artistic touch on it, play around with it, without it necessarily being used for performances? I dunno what the rules are though within your band

    Yes ! We have thought of that and talked about it. We're thinking about learning an extra set of just other covers we like, and with those, we can play with them a little and put our own spin on them. And we've also talked about writing some originals together. That's a big goal of ours this year...but within the trib arena, there are certain songs where you absolutely have to do it faithfully, and others you just make sure the major identifiable components are there, and you have some freedom of interpretation. So we're trying to allow for a bit of originality, but there are definitely constraints.
    Something Witty

  7. #17
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Oh, my gosh, so much great stuff, everyone! I will respond when I get back from my gig tonight--I better go get ready. Thanks for all your input! I very much appreciate it!!!
    Something Witty

  8. #18
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Oh, this is really helpful! I have always been unsure what he wants us to do with the ideas, since some of them are kind of out-there, and it just seemed like we were supposed to give a yes or no. So maybe we can come up with a way to float them out here and play with them and turn them into something workable.
    No, he's not looking for yes / no, he's looking for them to be brainstormed out further to see if they are workable or not. Yes or no at the outset would crush the next creative phase of brainstorming, which is "Can we make this real?" "Does / would this fit with us and the real world?" Maybe have a couple of brainstorm sessions, and set a band mission statement at the same time?

    For him, this meant, "oh, we're opening the floodgates to do all non-trib songs. We're abandoning the idea of a trib. For ENFJ and me, it just meant we were including a few extra songs, and we'd continue to learn other trib songs. But for him, it was important to see it as a departure. I never understood that.)
    I would see it as a departure too. I think it would make it harder to enact the idea of being a tribute band. Either you are or you aren't, and it's hard enough trying to be the best tribute band without all the other distracting ideas ... you can't be all things. Better to narrow the focus, or at least set the idea of writing your own stuff as an eventual destination, otherwise, there will be a lot more dissension in the group, IMO.


    EDIT: my hubs just said y'all should be a heart AND lee aaron tribute band lol! Plus he wants to know if you are Nancy or Ann! (Men ...)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Oh, this is really helpful! I have always been unsure what he wants us to do with the ideas, since some of them are kind of out-there, and it just seemed like we were supposed to give a yes or no. So maybe we can come up with a way to float them out here and play with them and turn them into something workable.
    I think that is right on. I usually see my ideas as seeds of something, not as some vision I want to drive through. I want to build them with people.

  10. #20
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    I think that is right on. I usually see my ideas as seeds of something, not as some vision I want to drive through. I want to build them with people.
    Not me exactly. I was surprised at myself for ripping into someone once, seeing him play my songs at a party, and then explicitly taking credit for them too. Not even playing them well either, which is what really stung. It's one thing to build things with people, but I have to say I claim ownership to something. If I can't even claim a song, then that's madness. Maybe this is a big difference with a 9.

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