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[MBTI General] Learning by painful experience, or just observing the mistakes of others...

SilkRoad

Lay the coin on my tongue
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I have a feeling that INFJs are quite willing to learn from the painful experiences they undergo, but they wouldn't necessarily take the approach that you have to try things out and get personally burnt to learn lessons. Well, that's more where I come from. There are a lot of things I don't regret not trying. For instance, I have issues on both a moral and a health level with taking drugs, and so I've never felt the need to experiment. Occasionally I may have wondered what it would be like but beyond a bit of curiosity I have no regrets in that area.

I imagine that many others - this is generalizing, but I'd imagine ExxPs, or SPs - might feel the need more to try everything out and learn by their own experiences.

Not that I'm averse to living life and learning lessons. I think I've done plenty of that, particularly in the realm of human relationships. But I'm not particularly a fan of getting burnt.

I guess the good thing for me about learning really painful lessons or undergoing really hard experiences has been that I can empathize more with those who are going through something bad, even if it is self-inflicted. And hopefully I learn lessons myself over how to handle things better in future. On the other hand, I have had experiences (mainly relating to emotional disappointments and people letting me down) which have felt so excruciatingly, blindingly painful that I almost feel as though the lessons learnt haven't been worth it. It may have taken me years to work through the pain and completely come out the other side and realise that I learned something valuable. It almost wasn't worth the pain. The pain is so debilitating that I would rather have learned the lesson second-hand, even if I don't learn it as well, or even if what I have learned is less useful to myself and others.

How do you feel about this? How do you feel that it is related to type?
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
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I think your approach also has to do with being self preservation. I know that I despise being hurt (especially physically) because of this. my approach is somewhere in the middle. I prefer to learn and life at the same time, but check first to make sure that I am in a safe environment where the consequences of making mistakes will not have a negative effect on me.
in general, I would guess that the learning style of various types looks like this:
SP- live, then learn
NJ- learn, then live
NP- live and learn simultaneously
SJ- get advice from an expert, live, learn
 

SilkRoad

Lay the coin on my tongue
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I think your approach also has to do with being self preservation. I know that I despise being hurt (especially physically) because of this. my approach is somewhere in the middle. I prefer to learn and life at the same time, but check first to make sure that I am in a safe environment where the consequences of making mistakes will not have a negative effect on me.
in general, I would guess that the learning style of various types looks like this:
SP- live, then learn
NJ- learn, then live
NP- live and learn simultaneously
SJ- get advice from an expert, live, learn

The SJ one made me chuckle a bit ;)

Yeah, you're right, it has a lot to do with self-preservation. I guess it's Fe, but I try to preserve a friendly and placid approach to other people. I feel it's the right thing to do and that it just smooths so many things out in so many ways. But sometimes I wonder if it has more to do with being a kind of pre-emptive strike. If I'm nice to people, maybe they won't hurt me...that sort of thing. It's almost more selfish.

My fear mainly has to do with emotional hurt. And I know that it has become a fear. I wonder if it will be a problem if/when I get into a relationship again (it's been a while). I don't mean so much that I would have a hard time being emotionally open to a relationship. It's more than I actually find myself too easily placing myself in a situation where I am over-invested emotionally in a person, perhaps far more than they are in me, or to the extent that I have laid myself open to hurt. At that stage I'm likely to bury my head in the sand to the possible consequences. It's like self-preservation but a bit too late. I don't want to see that things are going badly, or I hang in there too long. Ultimately the pain is worse when there's a breakup, rejection, betrayal, letdown, whatever it may be.

Hm, I think I'm digressing from the original purpose of the thread and rambling. :huh:
 

KDude

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Sometimes I learn by watching TV. Sometime's it's rock songs. God is in the radio. Maybe I want to avoid something because I'd start resembling some goober I saw in a movie once. I swear, some people make mistakes simply because they didn't watch Caddyshack 2. Sometimes it's pounded in my head just how much certain archetypes suck. You might see the same basic character over and over again in different stories, and he's never going to win with his methods. Never.. it's a law of the universe. He will end up on his ass with a pie in the face, and everyone else high fiving each other. Cut to credits.

Seriously though, I've made a lot of mistakes, of course. I don't repeat much though. I'll search for an ideal path after I've fallen down. I don't want to say that I make mountains out of molehills, but sometimes it seems like I dwell a bit more than some I know on various experiences and events around me. I also draw a lot of lessons from other people's stories. I might overhear a tragic story of someone I barely knew, and still get something out of it. I feel kind of weird at times.. I might even write a song about them. I've been in the same room with people who've heard the same stories, yet they end up making up similar mistakes themselves. I don't get it.
 

SilkRoad

Lay the coin on my tongue
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Sometimes I learn by watching TV. Sometime's it's rock songs. God is in the radio. Maybe I want to avoid something because I'd start resembling some goober I saw in a movie once. I swear, some people make mistakes simply because they didn't watch Caddyshack 2. Sometimes it's pounded in my head just how much certain archetypes suck. You might see the same basic character over and over again in different stories, and he's never going to win with his methods. Never.. it's a law of the universe. He will end up on his ass with a pie in the face, and everyone else high fiving each other. Cut to credits.

Seriously though, I've made a lot of mistakes, of course. I don't repeat much though. I'll search for an ideal path after I've fallen down. I don't want to say that I make mountains out of molehills, but sometimes it seems like I dwell a bit more than some I know on various experiences and events around me. I also draw a lot of lessons from other people's stories. I might overhear a tragic story of someone I barely knew, and still get something out of it. I feel kind of weird at times.. I might even write a song about them. I've been in the same room with people who've heard the same stories, yet they end up making up similar mistakes themselves. I don't get it.

Ah, the wisdom of rock music. :) I love it too, though maybe a lot of it is just escapism. But there are lines/themes that will just jump out at you. I find the same with poetry and literature generally.

It's great that you find you don't repeat your mistakes a lot. I find that there are some emotional mistakes I tend to repeat but that may be partly because the paths which lead me into them are different enough that I don't realise I'm kind of doing the same old thing. It's maybe discerning where things are likely to go, that may be partly what I need to work on.
 

Such Irony

Honor Thy Inferior
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I have a feeling that INFJs are quite willing to learn from the painful experiences they undergo, but they wouldn't necessarily take the approach that you have to try things out and get personally burnt to learn lessons. Well, that's more where I come from. There are a lot of things I don't regret not trying. For instance, I have issues on both a moral and a health level with taking drugs, and so I've never felt the need to experiment. Occasionally I may have wondered what it would be like but beyond a bit of curiosity I have no regrets in that area.

I imagine that many others - this is generalizing, but I'd imagine ExxPs, or SPs - might feel the need more to try everything out and learn by their own experiences.

That's definitely me. I've always been a careful person in this regard. I felt like I was the only teen listening in seriously in health class when the teacher mentioned about all the adverse effects drugs could have. It stopped me from trying them. Most of the other students didn't seem to take it seriously, instead adopting a "It will never happen to me mentality."

Same goes with smoking and unprotected sex. Didn't have a need to experiment with those either.

I would never just quit a job because I didn't like it anymore without being sure I had another one lined up. The work environment would have to be very toxic for me to consider doing that.



I think your approach also has to do with being self preservation. I know that I despise being hurt (especially physically) because of this. my approach is somewhere in the middle. I prefer to learn and life at the same time, but check first to make sure that I am in a safe environment where the consequences of making mistakes will not have a negative effect on me.
in general, I would guess that the learning style of various types looks like this:
SP- live, then learn
NJ- learn, then live
NP- live and learn simultaneously
SJ- get advice from an expert, live, learn

I think this pretty accurate depiction. FWIW I see myself most in the NJ one. I sort of relate to the NP one. I like to experiment provided I know that should I make mistakes they won't have adverse long term effects.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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NJ- learn, then live
There is something to this, but another possibility is: learn, then watch someone else live. I was going to write that I have learned much from the mistakes of others, which spared me having to make them myself, but upon reflection it seems to be more than this. I have often been able to predict the negative consequences of choices (e.g. drugs, quitting a job before having another, etc.), so when I observe the experiences of others, I am simply validating an existing theory. After all this, by the time I take action myself, I am fairly well informed. Moreover, after learning to trust my theories (for the most part), I can short-circuit the process and engage much more quickly. Not to say I never make my own mistakes, but I have been spared many of the worst ones through reflection and foresight.
 
V

violaine

Guest
I always thought I should be able to learn from others' mistakes as a strategy for living well. It's true for some things. But waiting and watching is also somewhat at odds with wanting to experience life. What I fear more than being in emotional pain due to saying yes to an experience, is dealing with the regret of not doing a thing and not taking a chance. It feels like a war inside between those two factions, and so I just take things on a case by case basis. I tell myself that I can only decide what I think is best at the time and if something painful comes of it, so be it, that's the risk associated with living a full life. Painful experiences are often valuable and can be character building if I allow them to be. (<--- I know that sounds hollow but it comforts me after the fact).

I try not to have a mindset whereby a mistake is always bad or avoidable. Softens the impact of certain experiences.
 

Fidelia

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Ni tends to be mistake avoidant I think. It tries to preview and predict outcomes and take the best possible route that it can see.

Fe usually also wants to weigh cost vs outcome. Therefore, I believe INFJs tend to want to avoid mistakes when possible and suck all the useful stuff out of them when they happen (and disseminate what they've learned to others).

I wouldn't agree with the broad generalizations about each of the four types. I do think though that NTs would be more likely to experiment first hand for intellectual and investigative purposes, although if they had a particular reason to not want to pursue a course of action, they would have no qualms about standing out. SPs do tend to go with the flow more and not worry as much about what will happen in the future. I think while SJs are ask the experts on some things, they are more likely to do whatever is normal to do within the social group that they are involved with. Therefore, their actions could vary quite greatly, depending on who they are around.

Most of the P types I know are reactive instead of preventative. They are less likely to expend energy on preparing contingency plans for something that isn't a problem yet. Many J types are more likely to want to look at some sort of preventative measures and are more deliberate about a lot of decisions.

ENFPs of my acquaintance seem to be pretty free spirity, I'll-try-anything-once types.
 
V

violaine

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Ni tends to be mistake avoidant I think. It tries to preview and predict outcomes and take the best possible route that it can see.

I think so too. I wish I could switch the minesweeper part of my mind off sometimes. It leads to general unease that isn't alleviated even when I'm right about something sometime down the track. I know how alarmist it makes me sound too when I'm off in hunch land, a few steps removed from reality, (though it's often my reality). I think it's why INFJs can find it so difficult to just be, the course ahead seems to chart itself and won't be ignored.
 

KDude

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I think so too. I wish I could switch the minesweeper part of my mind off sometimes. It leads to general unease that isn't alleviated even when I'm right about something sometime down the track. I know how alarmist it makes me sound too when I'm off in hunch land, a few steps removed from reality, (though it's often my reality). I think it's why INFJs can find it so difficult to just be, the course ahead seems to chart itself and won't be ignored.

Yeah, I'm sure that I'm more in the moment. For better or worse, I'm curious. But I do forge my path in a way. Needless to say, Fi isn't always always reactive. It can be avoidant and judgemental before really getting anywhere where it had a chance to react. I'm not too extreme in this though, but Fi doms can be, I think. I'll take a cue from Thomson's book where she talks about Fi doms who haven't exercised Pe very well. Usually younger, hardcore introverts may be like this more often. Where they have very egocentric/stereotypical thinking and lots of convictions. They may avoid many mistakes indirectly because they aren't open much in general. Maybe new opportunities make them feel sullied or "selling out", so to speak (which I get from time to time, but not a lot).
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Ni tends to be mistake avoidant I think. It tries to preview and predict outcomes and take the best possible route that it can see.

Fe usually also wants to weigh cost vs outcome. Therefore, I believe INFJs tend to want to avoid mistakes when possible and suck all the useful stuff out of them when they happen (and disseminate what they've learned to others).

I wouldn't agree with the broad generalizations about each of the four types. I do think though that NTs would be more likely to experiment first hand for intellectual and investigative purposes, although if they had a particular reason to not want to pursue a course of action, they would have no qualms about standing out.
INTJs do like to experiment, but a worthwhile experiment starts with an understanding of the problem or question, and a hypothesis, all informed by background research. Otherwise it is uncontrolled trial and error and will not likely yield results that can be generalized to future situations.

NTs weighs cost vs. outcome as well, in the style of a cost-benefit analysis. As Violaine points out, declining an opportunity is a choice, too, and has its own associated cost. NTs may be mistake-avoidant, but I wouldn't say we are risk- avoidant. We just prefer to take (very carefully) calculated risks.

calculated risk
 

Vasilisa

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So, you think other types are less inhibited than INFJ? Perhaps. I do sometimes feel inhibited from action by contemplating possibilities. But then there have been other experiences that I just had to try, and dove into, because they presented themselves and struck something inside of me. There are times to plan a move, and times to just move. My job is to make sure I am not in a state where I am closing off either type of occasion. Because imbalance has been known to happen. :rolleyes:

I have a great deal of interest in people's personal stories, experiences and life wisdom. When I learn personal things about people's experiences I hold onto it, see it their way, and imagine being in their skin. Personal stories stay with me that way and I can reference them in the future for additional perspective on something in front of me. But lessons sounds like life is some kind of workbook with an answer key, and most things are just not that way. Its all deeply personal. So for me, its less about templates, but more about tapping into that collective experience of humanity in order to have the ability to provide good counsel for myself and some others.

What I find interesting about listening to people's stories is that they can be instructive not just for teaching us what to be wary of, but also powerful affirmations of what people can cope with and come through, how hearts can be touched and grow stronger, how people can forgive others and themselves and find peace even after terrible mental, physical, and emotional anguish. Hearing them sometimes helps me feel gratitude for all my good fortune, and admiration of their spiritual/emotional fortitude. They may broaden my perspective, but its still up to me to live my life and take my chances, to not be imprisoned in fear of possibilities or of the unforeseen. That is a kind of atrophy. Its not always easy.

There is special power in sharing one's own story, too, but for me that is much, much harder.
 

Quay

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I've generally come to terms that my mistakes are my biggest life lessons. Every once in a while I start beating myself over the head about some retarded poo-poo I did when I was younger that may have hindered my growth/success/blahblah... but on a drive home one day, I concluded that I would probably be in the same spot right now in life no matter which route I took. That was soothing.

Supposedly I'm INFJ and my younger sister is INFP. I've noticed she has the ability to gather information from others' bad experiences and direct herself in a way that won't lead to the same mistakes. She isn't judgmental about it, she just doesn't involve herself. She just decides she doesn't want the same for herself. Myself...I have the tendency to just live my life and not really pay attention to others' situations until I become involved in them. The experience becomes mine somehow, so I am able to filter out the lessons for myself. This has taken literally years for me to get a healthy grip on.

(On a side note: As I get older, I notice a lot of my introversion doesn't really have to do with shyness or insecurity, just how much I want to be involved in others' lives.)
 

cascadeco

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Hmm, tough to answer. It's so situational.

I think when it comes to many relationship-specific things, I am much more cautious and avoidant/risk-averse -- as my baseline personlity goes, at least. So I think the bulk of my earlier years - teens into early 20's - I was primarily Observant and noticing all of the things that could go wrong, and why, etc. So yeah, I would notice the mistakes others made and then incorporate that into my own ideas of what worked in relationships and what I needed to be careful to watch out for or avoid. These days, I think my risk-averseness is very similar to what Coriolis outlined - that I will absolutely take risks if I deem the potential benefits outweigh the costs, or if I deem that the cost/worst-case-scenario is either unlikely or is even 'worth' it due to the benefit.

Re. non-relationship stuff and life choices in general -- I think there are very few things that I have ever known outright that I absolutely don't like, or don't agree with, or whatever. So I think I'm in general a very curious person, and because I don't have strong black-and-white notions about most things (although I do have key things I AM very solid on, or know without trying that it's 'not me' or I don't want to try), often my way of learning whether I like something or not, or agree with something or not, or if something works with my personality or doesn't, is the act of doing. I might suspect it'll go one way or another prior to my doing it, but I don't know for certain. I also can learn more of who I am by doing - rather than pure thinking or observing. This is more of a recent twist, though.

Re. learning in general -- I think I do gain bits and pieces from others - absolutely. I mean, especially re. some relationship stuff, I can learn from other peoples' stories and it makes total sense and I know it would be the same for me so I don't need to do it myself - I'd describe these more as universal truths. Other things, though... I may not see them as necessarily universal- they may apply to that one person but I don't know that it applies to me. So that's where I might need to learn by experience.
 
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