[MBTI General] Please allow me to feel the way I feel

[Lauren]

Not everyone seems to understand this concept, and it is annoying although (I suppose) well meant.

I have one friend (probably ISFJ) who I consider one of my gurus and who completely believes in this - allowing yourself the feelings that you're having, not making things worse by making yourself feel you should not have them, etc. She understands the value of working through difficult feelings and eventually being able to gently put them aside (well, that's the hope). Not that she believes in wallowing, but acknowledging that your feelings are valid.

Then there are the others... I guess I'm just a bit annoyed now. I'd told a friend (probably ENFP) about feeling low recently and some frustrations/disappointments: an apparent romantic opportunity with someone I liked a lot which failed to materialize; being a bit drained by trying to help out a troubled teen; etc.

Her responses were just very...well, I'd tried to explain that I can't just leave the teenager in the lurch (although I've been helping her to get help by going to the doctor for depression, getting a couple of other trusted adults on side, etc). Her response: "Well, you've obviously done what you can now so just leave it! You can check in with her later!" I want to say "well, it's not really that type of situation and you don't know much about the situation anyway..."

And as for the romantic disappointment... "Why are you feeling sad about someone who obviously didn't care much anyway? You said he was at least a good friend but obviously he wasn't!! He obviously doesn't want you in his life at all any more! Why have negative feelings about that?" Again, a situation I didn't even give much detail about.

Urgh...just ALLOW ME MY FEELINGS. No, I'm not wallowing, no, I'm not burying myself ever deeper in situations that are just going to make things feel more hard and sad. I'm doing my best with the way things are going and the way I'm feeling.

I dunno, I'm a bit sensitive at the moment. Or maybe I'm just a wimp. But I prefer it if people give my feelings (which are surely not outrageous or laughable or totally unreasonable) some validation and then some gentle suggestions with how to deal/move on. Not suggesting that my feelings aren't even valid.

Is it type related, do you think?

I don't know if it's type related. But for me, I need to feel that my feelings are heard and not judged. I've usually thought through all the various scenerios or possibilities (Ne) and so I need an ear to give me a sense that my scenerios are correct or way off. I dislike when I'm judged or when someone dismisses the situation as, "You think too much..it's obvious." I loved it when a good friend of mine said recently: "Every situation is different." Not everything is predictable based on what the majority of people experience. There's a lot of experiences/variables/ out there. I guess that I basicaly don't like to be judged and someone offer a pat answer (a good friend recently offered "you should be over this...call it what it is." That's just not helpful to me or what I need in the moment. I also don't like my feelings to be disregarded. If someone is kind enough to acknowledge those feelings, then I'm more open to listen to the logic of a situation.

 

[Bamboo]

Perhaps not everyone is to know that...

What does this mean?

 

[SilkRoad]

What does this mean?

It meant that sometimes I'm too sensitive and too subtle about how I'm feeling. What is patronizing about that??

 

[Lauren]

Any Fi users I have been close to tend to deal with their emotions quite internally. Even when a value is stepped on and they speak out, it doesn't seem to be so much to rouse other people into action that is beyond the Fi users personal realm of influence, but rather to express something important, almost for conscience sake or to be true to oneself (I mean, I don't know what it looks like internally, but from my perspective, that's what it is looks like they are doing). This seems really foreign to extroverted feeling which needs more outside input to be able to find resolution. I notice my INFP friend's biggest struggle with her problems is working through them within herself, but once that has been done, nothing in her outward world needs to change for her to feel closure. For me, I need information that helps make things make sense or a chance to resolve something with someone. With that kind of closure, I can quickly get over problems, even if the outcome wasn't ideal. Without it, it takes me a lot longer to work through and I have to let it get so old that the intensity of my feelings have subsided. This is especially true with people I have been close to or dated. Straightforward agreement of the issues and decision to part ways is fine. Unaccounted for or unexplained behaviour with no way to get further perspective or information is crippling to me.

Though I'm an Fi, I relate to all of this, Fidelia. I can find closure on my own but it's unsatisfying in some ways. I may tell myself that I've found closure but I usally have lingering questions or doubts about what I could have done or what the other person was feeling. I would much rather talk about something, even if the outcome isn't ideal. At least then you can ground truth what you have experienced with someone you care for. You actually hear what they say, rather than imagining what is going on. That imagining may be based on firm intuition and a good read of things but it's not the same as actually talking. Talking is more fearful but definitely worth it.

 

[Bamboo]

It was a somewhat simplistic explanation followed by (what seemed to me like) a strange comment. The comment doesn't make sense to me in the context of what you wrote.

I still don't understand what it means, I don't get how "perhaps not everyone is to know that..." means "I am sometimes too subtle about my feelings." Is it a secret?

That doesn't make sense (to me, at least), so I was wondering if it was sarcasm.

 

[Bamboo]

Beyond all this, the subtleties layered on subtlety is just confusing. I mean anything could be read between the lines. Was the purpose of this whole post to get help with that teenager? And that romantic thing? Or are you actually talking about what you are talking about? How could someone know?

 

[SilkRoad]

True: the OP was directed more toward validating feelings first and moving from there. The second part of my post ("the cycle") was presented to show that I have familiarity and experience with the topic from which I am drawing my opinions. I understand that it is important to direct your comments toward other people in ways they will understand. But the person on the receiving end must adjust to the other person and their comments.

It's frustrating to see useful or productive advice go to waste when the person on the receiving end seemingly refuses to process it because it didn't follow the format that they wanted. It's especially frustrating when there are claims that the person who is giving the advice is cast as preventing the other person from having their emotions - as if that having a different viewpoint means that the other person can't have theirs.

Could this be explained or addressed?

Ok, it's twenty to two in the morning, but I'll try again.

In this particular case my gut reaction was that the ENFP was giving a bunch of pat answers/solutions which in part didn't even have a basis in what I had told her. ie. she told me I should just let other people look after the teenager I've been helping out, and give myself a complete break, but she does not know enough about the situation to understand that this is nearly impossible and would have plenty of negative effects for the teen and those around her.

This thread has helped me to realise that the ENFP wasn't trying to dismiss or invalidate my feelings but was trying to be helpful - at least, that's the hope. I think, as with so many things, that adjustment is needed on both sides. I need to understand that other people will not always express themselves in exactly the "format" which is best suited to me, but they may still have very worthwhile things to say. Other people need to show themselves to be a friend to me (if that is the relationship we have, and it probably is if I'm telling them about my life) not only by offering advice, but by taking my feelings and the fact that I may possibly be more sensitive than usual in that moment (definitely the case currently) due to whatever I'm experiencing.

And no, the original purpose of this thread was not to get help with helping out a troubled teen or with a romantic disappointment. I've had threads about those elsewhere! Mainly it was to vent about what I perceived as an invalidation/dismissal of my feelings by a friend. What I actually enjoyed about the thread was that people took the time to discuss how INFJs and ENFPs (and other types, indeed) can help each other out better in these situations, and how we shouldn't necessarily jump to conclusions about people's motives due to their communication styles.

 

[Elfboy]

I'm not sure if you were intending on this (in all honesty, you probably weren't) but the connotation of this thread title kind of bothers me. personally, no one has the authority to "allow" me to feel the way I'm feeling. the notion that someone could even think they have the right to "allow" someone to feel a certain way is sorta troubling to me. anyway, just my 2 cents

 

[miss fortune]

YOU'RE bothered by a thread title?

 

[skylights]

I would like to add that, having experienced life with my ENFP sister - my need to process through my feelings at length is not something that is always necessary for her. She seems to reach a balance quickly (most of the time) whereas I seem to reach a balance very very slowly. I notice this in me and in the other NFJs in my close circle. We just can't shake things off - it has to melt off or evaporate in the sun, but one moment too soon and you get resentment or a sense of having been robbed or evaded by something you wished to understand better.

She allows me to feel what I'm feeling and vice versa, but there was a surprise for both her and me over our monumentally different needs in the area of processing time. If we have a fight, I may be angry for an hour while she's angry for 10 minutes.

YESSSS this is such a good point! my NFJ friend and i have VASTLY different emotional processing times. i used to get really freaked out thinking she was very seriously angry at me because of how long she would need after an argument before we could talk again. but that wasn't true, she just needed a longer cooling period than me.

Fi users need to remember that noise from Fe users is a healthy sign and quietness is usually a sign of something less good. That's why Fe-ers get so panicky when they get no information from you guys on what is going on internally and they assume the very worst. Fe tends to hold back, especially on all things negative unless they feel comfortable with the person and welcomed to do so, so they are kind of going out on a limb and showing you that same kind of genuine mask-dropping when they vent. They hope that you will not suddenly view them as a mean or as an incompetent person for doing so because they already feel vulnerable.

this is very helpful to know... Fi quiet is accepting, i assume silence as accepting. will take note that not everyone does.

So, as far as questions to ask. Look for what is different that this person's usual way of operating. [etc]

awesome, thank you

These are the times when the Fe user needs to hear that emotional support, though. It's a very confusing time, and those emotions and the situation need to be figured out before they can be dismissed. A Fe user might know that a guy is bad for her or not worth her time, but she has to reconcile that with the fact that she does feel something for him; it might not even make sense to her, but she has to work through it. Sometimes several times, IME, just to really get a clear read on the situation. She's working towards a solution, but a solution presented too soon makes her feel like she shouldn't have those feelings to begin with, and is just being silly or foolish. Which delays the process of getting over it. She might have to mourn the idea of his potential, rather than who he actually was, which isn't a straightforward thing to come to terms with. She has to figure out whether she was lying to herself to make it work. Etc., etc. Emotional support helps here, as does helping her to confirm an accurate read of the situation, and confirming to her that she did all she could do to make it work on her end.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I do think it's easiest to do this stuff with folks who process things in a similar way. It's just easier not to have to bridge communication gaps on top of working through the problem at hand.

this is a great explanation, thanks. i think you're right that it's easier to process with those who are similar... though when i get to the end of things, i often find that someone who thinks rather differently is more helpful to me than someone who thinks similarly. and because most of the people i currently hang out with are mainly FJs and couple INTPs, knowing this anyway will definitely be valuable

 

[Fidelia]

Oh yeah, as far as silence, it can mean that it just needs invitation to express the negative, or it can be their way of trying to recalibrate when there is hurt. It can also mean that they are in a bad state emotionally. A Fe user that's doing okay will usually be kind of noisier than most Fi-ers about what is going on, but it's actually a good sign. A Fe user that's not doing so good will tend to talk less. That's when you should worry about them and start asking questions to find out where the problem lies.

 

[EJCC]

How do you react if someone tells you that the emotion you're feeling is irrational and you find they're right? Would you want them to alert you to this fact, or even still let you continue with it?

I think you would want to be very careful and very, very tactful with making a point like this. Actually, considering the INFJ responses to this post so far, I'm inclined to say that you probably shouldn't ever call an Fe type's feelings "irrational". But Te and Ti types, on the other hand, it might work better with. I know that the xNTPs I'm friends with would find that comforting, regardless of how it was phrased, and it would make me feel better in some situations, and only when phrased correctly. But this would be more likely (and I dunno how other ESTJs or ENFPs or whoever would react to this):

Reflect (trying to be helpful): Your emotions are irrational, right now. I don't know if you can go about this objectively.
Me (angrily): I know that already! I wish I was being objective, but I can't be! What am I supposed to do about it???

Also, it might come across as presumptuous? But again, it totally depends on the phrasing. And for the record, sometimes I comfort myself by reminding myself that I'm being irrational and talking my emotions down. So I relate.

it doesn't frustrate me really. i think i just misunderstand it. it comes off like here's the problem and i've thought it to death and it has no solution....

YES. I used to get really upset to the point of crying when my INFJ mom vented at me, for that exact reason. Now, my coping mechanism when my INFJ friends (and mom) do that, is to make myself cynical and detached, and not trusting them entirely. I don't think that's a good way to go about things at all, but it's the only thing I've been able to think of to do. (If any INFJs here have better ideas, let me know )

Thanks so much for the input and the different perspective, much appreciated. I found the above really interesting and it gives me hope. I guess from where I stand at least, the INFJ approach with a close friend (at least one where genuine trust exists – if the trust is somewhat in doubt, it is far more complex) is to be more direct than I otherwise would, but to preface it with lots (sometimes too much!!) of “I’m sorry if this hurts your feelings, but I need to be direct” or “I must warn you, you may not like all of this, but I really need to say it”, etc. Kind of tiptoeing around, maybe a bit too much But I do find that most people will be softened up and more ready to hear me out, particularly if they’re going to get a bit of a lecture, which I’m afraid does happen sometimes!

Many of the INFJs in my life do this. And some of the ENFJs, too. When it's overly cautious of them, it's cute and funny, and when it's appropriate, it does lessen the impact. So it makes sense to me - better to be safe than sorry, right?

Yeah, to be fair, the ENFP definitely wanted to lift my mood and let me know she was thinking of me. And she suggested some practical things we might want to do together when she’s in town later this year, which would be fun/uplifting. It wasn’t quite what I needed to hear just then. But I want to believe that the thought and the good motive were there.

WANT to believe? Dude, believe 100%. That ENFP was doing EXACTLY what would have made her day and boosted her mood, even if it didn't suit your particular needs. In fact, that's just so incredibly Te/Fi that I want to be her friend, because I would have absolutely loved that

Proof of what everyone's been saying all along, I suppose

 

[Fidelia]

YES. I used to get really upset to the point of crying when my INFJ mom vented at me, for that exact reason. Now, my coping mechanism when my INFJ friends (and mom) do that, is to make myself cynical and detached, and not trusting them entirely. I don't think that's a good way to go about things at all, but it's the only thing I've been able to think of to do. (If any INFJs here have better ideas, let me know )

I'm so sorry! I think we just really have no idea how it feels to you because people venting to us doesn't remotely invoke that kind of reaction. We can acknowledge the feelings as legitimate and very real and very distressing, but somehow still go about our own lives at the same time after we feel that we've done everything within our power to help. Even if I care about the other person a lot, I don't really merge feelings with them, other than in a sympathetic manner.

We can feel that cynicism (kind of just that you think we're being whiners) when you adopt that approach, but I can see that if it is quite personally distressing how that might be hard to do much else.

I expect you already know that nothing is expected from you other than a sympathetic ear and an expression that you are on their team somehow. It's a bonus if you are willing to ask questions (and I think it might be a relieve fro you because it gives you something concrete to do that actually really makes a difference.

You know how you ruminate about ideas out loud? We ruminate about feelings out loud. Neither are the final product, but rather are the raw materials to start building from. If there are better things available to also use, we will adopt them if you make us aware of them. I'm sure it's quite frustrating that we don't adopt the solutions offered very easily.

I guess I'd liken it to this - a contractor would find it most useful to be aware of any alternate materials out there that will solve some of the problems he regularly encounters or that he is experiencing with a particular project, but he does not want you to take over the building project itself. He also is not going to listen to any old person walk in off the street who knows nothing about construction make suggestions that he use a certain product. He wants to be sure that the person actually understands what the reoccurring problem is and has taken the time to look at it before he considers any solutions. If the contracter himself does not have that figured out, he may appreciate someone he trusts asking questions or commenting on what he sees to help narrow down where the problem lies and possible ways of addressing it.

House cannot solve his cases without his team, and yet he doesn't often take their advice, nor does he need another doctor to definitively tell him what medication he should be prescribing. They somehow serve as a catalyst for his thought process. He can't do without them, and yet sometimes his energies are even taken up with showing them why they may be mistaken. Extremely frustrating, I'm sure!

The only thing I can say is that the emotions being vented are extremely real and you truly are performing a valuable function that we don't trust just anyone to do. I try to keep in mind how Te users feel though and keep my venting to a minimum with them because they start to feel like I am the boy that cried wolf, or they suspect me of irrationality and incompetence at a time when I am struggling hardest to see myself in an accurate light. You probably are seeing an INFJ at one of their more vulnerable times and they need you to see it as that, rather than that this is revealing who they truly are or that they are just a hopeless case who is stubborn to boot.

I do find that the less you do the devil's advocate thing, the less I try to prove why the situation is so dire. I run out of steam faster and shift my energies to focussing on the solution more quickly if I feel like you believe in me and you feel I wouldn't speak out about it unless some of my concerns were legitimate. Otherwise, I'm wading through the extra emotional muck created by now feeling fearful about how the people whose opinion I value most view me.

 

[mochajava]

I'm in this crazy cult of people who believe that feelings are never wrong. Feelings, not behaviors or attitudes, not thoughts or reflexes, but the actual essential feelings a person has. They may be brought on by that which is unhealthy or irrational, but emotions remain, to each of us, our real and personal truth.

So, if someone is concerned about me and the results of my feelings and tells me that my emotion is irrational, its probably going to sting. The idea of someone "letting" me continue feeling something sounds quite sinister. I like someone who cares to offer different perspectives, insight, their own particular feelings (which I don't want to invalidate either) and support with tact. By doing this, when they turn out to be right about how to best to handle situations, the value of their wisdom quickly becomes apparent to me. This is a way to help me transform what may be unhealthy or negative. Its a fundamental belief that I have that you can't help people if you don't accept that feelings are never wrong. This is how I operate to try to reach people.

This is exactly right. Feelings don't have to be rational to be valid.

 

[mochajava]

True: the OP was directed more toward validating feelings first and moving from there. The second part of my post ("the cycle") was presented to show that I have familiarity and experience with the topic from which I am drawing my opinions. I understand that it is important to direct your comments toward other people in ways they will understand. But the person on the receiving end must adjust to the other person and their comments.

It's frustrating to see useful or productive advice go to waste when the person on the receiving end seemingly refuses to process it because it didn't follow the format that they wanted. It's especially frustrating when there are claims that the person who is giving the advice is cast as preventing the other person from having their emotions - as if that having a different viewpoint means that the other person can't have theirs.

Could this be explained or addressed?

Sincere question: why is it so important to have your advice acknowledged and followed in a way that you can see it? Would it be okay if the advice was followed long after it was visible to you? Or perhaps not at all? I think, with feelings and INFJs, sometimes you just want insight and to understand a situation. The course-of-action/advice part will take care of itself on its own. That's how I work -- the "J" provides the practical solutions when I've worked through the emotions well enough to see clearly (possibly the cycle Bamboo mentioned)

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I'm in this crazy cult of people who believe that feelings are never wrong. Feelings, not behaviors or attitudes, not thoughts or reflexes, but the actual essential feelings a person has. They may be brought on by that which is unhealthy or irrational, but emotions remain, to each of us, our real and personal truth.

So, if someone is concerned about me and the results of my feelings and tells me that my emotion is irrational, its probably going to sting. The idea of someone "letting" me continue feeling something sounds quite sinister. I like someone who cares to offer different perspectives, insight, their own particular feelings (which I don't want to invalidate either) and support with tact. By doing this, when they turn out to be right about how to best to handle situations, the value of their wisdom quickly becomes apparent to me. This is a way to help me transform what may be unhealthy or negative. Its a fundamental belief that I have that you can't help people if you don't accept that feelings are never wrong. This is how I operate to try to reach people.

That is a part of independence and so I can see the importance of allowing yourself to feel what you feel. This brought up another question. Do you try to remove feelings that bring you pain? Or would that be a crime to rid yourself of the ability to feel those emotions? As humans we do our best to evade physically debilitating injuries, do you try to figure out how to cut those 'bad' feelings out of your life (That's just a different way to say the first question)?

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I think you would want to be very careful and very, very tactful with making a point like this. Actually, considering the INFJ responses to this post so far, I'm inclined to say that you probably shouldn't ever call an Fe type's feelings "irrational". But Te and Ti types, on the other hand, it might work better with. I know that the xNTPs I'm friends with would find that comforting, regardless of how it was phrased, and it would make me feel better in some situations, and only when phrased correctly. But this would be more likely (and I dunno how other ESTJs or ENFPs or whoever would react to this):

Reflect (trying to be helpful): Your emotions are irrational, right now. I don't know if you can go about this objectively.
Me (angrily): I know that already! I wish I was being objective, but I can't be! What am I supposed to do about it???

Also, it might come across as presumptuous? But again, it totally depends on the phrasing. And for the record, sometimes I comfort myself by reminding myself that I'm being irrational and talking my emotions down. So I relate.

Hm, not to be combative, but it brought up the thought, that when this appears in real-life who is supposed to compromise? I understand both do, but which compromises more, or is it simply the one who isn't experiencing the feeling? That's always a big problem for me. Understanding when I should get off my horse and let them go with it, or tell them what I think because the cold truth is what's needed sometimes.

 

[mochajava]

That is a part of independence and so I can see the importance of allowing yourself to feel what you feel. This brought up another question. Do you try to remove feelings that bring you pain? Or would that be a crime to rid yourself of the ability to feel those emotions? As humans we do our best to evade physically debilitating injuries, do you try to figure out how to cut those 'bad' feelings out of your life (That's just a different way to say the first question)?

The same way you prevent physical injury by avoiding certain types of situations, or preparing with the right gear (helmets, learning the proper knots for rock climbing ropes, etc.) you can do the same thing emotionally. Some examples might be just prepping yourself that you're dealing with someone difficult, avoiding environments that don't agree with you and seeking ones you like better, etc. I like this parallel. I suppose that the "dealing with it once it happens" parallel is that once you're physically injured, you don't deny you're injured and sit at home. You take the appropriate action, whether that's a band-aid or a 911 call. Similarly with emotions, when you've got a big bad one, it's festering like a wound. You have to do the right treatment to it.

Also - have you noticed how sick/injured people love sympathy, delivered correctly? Flowers, food, help with things around the house, words, empathy? I think that the same is true with emotions. People will (eventually) arrive at the right solution of what to do if you just ask them the right questions. Most people are pretty smart / resourceful about their lives, but seek to make sense of the world around them. And making sense of the world around you is a huge, messy process with tons of feelings in it (e.g., this forum!)

 

[mochajava]

And just a piece of officiousness -- don't berate yourself for "irrational emotions" or other people for them. Sometimes there's a deeper lesson in there. And sometimes there isn't, but that strong feeling sure goes away faster if you don't tie it down with criticism! Let it go

 

[EJCC]

Hm, not to be combative, but it brought up the thought, that when this appears in real-life who is supposed to compromise? I understand both do, but which compromises more, or is it simply the one who isn't experiencing the feeling? That's always a big problem for me. Understanding when I should get off my horse and let them go with it, or tell them what I think because the cold truth is what's needed sometimes.

Hmmm... Well, firstly, don't worry - you aren't being combative. Secondly, though - I don't think it's really a matter of "compromise". I mean, I guess it is, if you're thinking about it broadly, i.e. if you're thinking that both parties are trying to problem-solve, and make the best decision they can considering any possible disagreements. But if problem-solving and getting things accomplished is your goal, you have to wonder - what's going to be accomplished if you tell someone that they're being irrational? Keeping in mind that, from my experience, people aren't generally hyper-rational enough to respond to that by saying "Oh, I didn't realize that, I apologize, I'll put my emotions away and we'll deal with this logically". My approach would be getting to the root of their emotions, seeing what it is that offends them, and dealing with the cause of the emotions. Just like I said earlier in the thread, I see emotions as being a symptom, and (despite how inconvenient they are) they are not the REAL problem; they're a warning sign and shouldn't be dismissed until you figure out what's causing them.

So I guess, to answer your question... in an ideal situation, both sides, regardless of emotion, would still care enough about getting the problem solved that they would be able to consider the causes of their emotions in the process of problem-solving. However, if the emotional party isn't wanting to back down - and keep in mind that I'm a Te type so my priorities are probably different from yours - then if you care about finding a solution, you'll be the one to compromise. Whatever needs to get done to find a solution, should get done.

Hope that helped