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  1. #31
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't know why I didn't think of it in those terms before, but I know that I've taken a Te users "thinking out loud" as being their final answer, because that's how it would be for a Ti user if they vocalized it. Does it bother you guys then that we are kind of wasting your time while we process things because we aren't presenting a conclusion, or discombobulating you when you realize that we weren't as definite as we sounded? Thanks for stating it this way. It just kind of struck a chord. What Tallulah said was really right on. I think a lot of it is about figuring out how to deal with conflicting feelings towards the same person and it's hard to know which feelings to put the most weight on, or how to reconcile it all together.
    it doesn't frustrate me really. i think i just misunderstand it. it comes off like here's the problem and i've thought it to death and it has no solution....like...just sort of defeatist...so i think...no no it's okay you are just so deep inside the emotions of it you can't get perspective...so..since i'm hearing this with fresh ears i'll see what i can come up with.

    does that make sense?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  2. #32
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Totally! Helpful to know that too!

  3. #33
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I skipped the last page so if this was brought up then disregard.

    How do you react if someone tells you that the emotion you're feeling is irrational and you find they're right? Would you want them to alert you to this fact, or even still let you continue with it?
    I'm in this crazy cult of people who believe that feelings are never wrong. Feelings, not behaviors or attitudes, not thoughts or reflexes, but the actual essential feelings a person has. They may be brought on by that which is unhealthy or irrational, but emotions remain, to each of us, our real and personal truth.

    So, if someone is concerned about me and the results of my feelings and tells me that my emotion is irrational, its probably going to sting. The idea of someone "letting" me continue feeling something sounds quite sinister. I like someone who cares to offer different perspectives, insight, their own particular feelings (which I don't want to invalidate either) and support with tact. By doing this, when they turn out to be right about how to best to handle situations, the value of their wisdom quickly becomes apparent to me. This is a way to help me transform what may be unhealthy or negative. Its a fundamental belief that I have that you can't help people if you don't accept that feelings are never wrong. This is how I operate to try to reach people.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I knew the OP was INFJ after reading a few paragraphs.

    Let me throw this out there:

    Maybe they aren't saying that your feeling is wrong, but that failing to see outside of the path that the feeling presents to you will only lead you down a path which you probably won't like.

    I see this trait with INFJs a lot. They get caught up in this "taking the pain" process (ie. validating the emotion) instead of realizing they are getting trapped in a shitty situation - like they don't realize the impact that certain emotions will have on their perceptions. Then, they stretch themselves thin, over exert themselves, and then have to release all these toxic emotions. And then the cycle repeats itself.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  5. #35
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think you'll notice as most INFJs get older that they get better at drawing more appropriate boundaries which help to prevent that from happening as much. That is a real weakness with us. I still think though that it is a related, but separate issue from the OP. Drawing boundaries that keep us out of these situations is a preventative measure. If we are already in this situation and need support, we also need to know how best to address it with the least frustration to everyone involved.

  6. #36
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I've found that I cannot make negative emotions disappear until I have either tempered them with other emotions or with context that puts the situation/behaviour in perspective or until I have processed what happened, what my part was in it, what I can do about it now, how I will prevent that from ever happening quite that way again. That requires a lot of narrowing down, considering things from several points of view, looking for patterns, and extrapolating future possibilities. Sometimes you want someone to bounce those things off of or get a second opinion.
    Exactly. I dare say it can seem just like monotonous thinking out loud or spinning in circles to some types. But it does help me. When I was younger, I used to write about everything – my journal was my way of dealing with everything. But in some respects I probably wasn’t “dealing” that well (it certainly took me a long time to get over some things) and now it seems that I am just more of a people person. So instead of writing in a journal, if I’m frustrated or unhappy about something, I am fortunate to have some patient friends far away who are willing to work through a long rambling email I’ve sent and give me some comfort and valuable feedback, or patient friends in the same city who are willing to listen to long rambles over dinner or a cup of tea

    Also, I've got this forum!

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    For me, I need information that helps make things make sense or a chance to resolve something with someone. With that kind of closure, I can quickly get over problems, even if the outcome wasn't ideal. Without it, it takes me a lot longer to work through and I have to let it get so old that the intensity of my feelings have subsided. This is especially true with people I have been close to or dated. Straightforward agreement of the issues and decision to part ways is fine. Unaccounted for or unexplained behaviour with no way to get further perspective or information is crippling to me.
    Exactly again. I’ve gone into this somewhat in other threads as well, including the delayed reaction one. Sometimes you just won’t get closure, and you have to accept that. As you say, then you have to allow lots and lots of time for all the intense negative feelings and pain to subside. And it can take ages, years sometimes in my experience. (and yes, particularly when romance is involved or a very close friendship.) It has astonished me in a few situations where I did get closure finally, how my negative feelings and pain seemed to disappear almost instantly. Yes, maybe I’d been working on them for some time already (or just trying to forget and let go), but it’s like this sudden shortcut to happy relief when I get true closure and resolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    You mentioned wanting "gentle suggestions" in the OP, and that's exactly what the ENFP was trying to give you. It's just that Te and Fi types don't really know how to sugarcoat it. We don't always know how to put empathetic language into our comforting words. Like LadyX's comment (which fidelia agreed with), our feelings, the stronger they are, the more we keep them inside - so, ironically, the more we empathize with a friend, or the more we worry or care about them, the less we will show it. I know it doesn't make sense, but think of it like this: the closer you get to someone, the less of a "mask" they will have with you. Which means: with a Te/Fi or Fi/Te friend, they'll stop wearing an Fe mask, presuming that you understand, since you're close friends now, that you won't take offense by the lack of Fe, and you'll know that they still care very deeply about you.
    Thanks so much for the input and the different perspective, much appreciated. I found the above really interesting and it gives me hope. I guess from where I stand at least, the INFJ approach with a close friend (at least one where genuine trust exists – if the trust is somewhat in doubt, it is far more complex) is to be more direct than I otherwise would, but to preface it with lots (sometimes too much!!) of “I’m sorry if this hurts your feelings, but I need to be direct” or “I must warn you, you may not like all of this, but I really need to say it”, etc. Kind of tiptoeing around, maybe a bit too much But I do find that most people will be softened up and more ready to hear me out, particularly if they’re going to get a bit of a lecture, which I’m afraid does happen sometimes!

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    exactly... i think the feeling sort of is, the closer we are, the less i need to be so careful and proper around you, and the more we can simply feel together. you will know that i am thinking about you, because i'll spend all day feeling your feelings and coming up with solutions to try to help you. i'll try to lift you out of your mood, not echo it, because if i echo it, that will just make two sad friends!
    Yeah, to be fair, the ENFP definitely wanted to lift my mood and let me know she was thinking of me. And she suggested some practical things we might want to do together when she’s in town later this year, which would be fun/uplifting. It wasn’t quite what I needed to hear just then. But I want to believe that the thought and the good motive were there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I'm in this crazy cult of people who believe that feelings are never wrong. Feelings, not behaviors or attitudes, not thoughts or reflexes, but the actual essential feelings a person has. They may be brought on by that which is unhealthy or irrational, but emotions remain, to each of us, our real and personal truth.

    So, if someone is concerned about me and the results of my feelings and tells me that my emotion is irrational, its probably going to sting. The idea of someone "letting" me continue feeling something sounds quite sinister. I like someone who cares to offer different perspectives, insight, their own particular feelings (which I don't want to invalidate either) and support with tact. By doing this, when they turn out to be right about how to best to handle situations, the value of their wisdom quickly becomes apparent to me. This is a way to help me transform what may be unhealthy or negative. Its a fundamental belief that I have that you can't help people if you don't accept that feelings are never wrong. This is how I operate to try to reach people.
    I totally agree. There may be things attached to feelings that are "wrong" in some way. That I think is quite possible. Misconceptions, wrong beliefs, lack of logic, etc etc. But I just think - er, feel! - how can "feelings" be "wrong"? You're feeling it! And as Vasilisa says, it's your personal truth. I guess that's why I think that feelings should always be validated or at least acknowledged in some way. I think it kind of softens the blow or sweetens the pill for the difficult stuff, which can be working through those feelings, dealing with unhealthy patterns of behaviour that influence the feelings, etc etc. Work with what you have, I say, and that includes feelings.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    True: the OP was directed more toward validating feelings first and moving from there. The second part of my post ("the cycle") was presented to show that I have familiarity and experience with the topic from which I am drawing my opinions. I understand that it is important to direct your comments toward other people in ways they will understand. But the person on the receiving end must adjust to the other person and their comments.

    It's frustrating to see useful or productive advice go to waste when the person on the receiving end seemingly refuses to process it because it didn't follow the format that they wanted. It's especially frustrating when there are claims that the person who is giving the advice is cast as preventing the other person from having their emotions - as if that having a different viewpoint means that the other person can't have theirs.

    Could this be explained or addressed?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  8. #38
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    True: the OP was directed more toward validating feelings first and moving from there. The second part of my post ("the cycle") was presented to show that I have familiarity and experience with the topic from which I am drawing my opinions. I understand that it is important to direct your comments toward other people in ways they will understand. But the person on the receiving end must adjust to the other person and their comments.

    It's frustrating to see useful or productive advice go to waste when the person on the receiving end seemingly refuses to process it because it didn't follow the format that they wanted. It's especially frustrating when there are claims that the person who is giving the advice is cast as preventing the other person from having their emotions - as if that having a different viewpoint means that the other person can't have theirs.
    I do hear you. I guess that's one of the good things about a thread like this. My original post was mainly out of frustration, but it has ended up being a rather fascinating discussion around how we can listen to/help each other better!

    The fact is, sometimes I am just sensitive. I'm actually not the type of sensitive person who bursts into tears over the least little thing. I think that most of the time people would perceive me as fairly thick-skinned. But in my perhaps-overly-subtle-way, if I send you an email in response to your "hey, is everything ok?" query wherein I specify that I'm emotionally drained due to helping friends with difficult friends, and due to a romantic disappointment - I am also trying to tell you that I need sensitive handling at the moment. If I use words like "drained and exhausted", it is fairly serious. Perhaps not everyone is to know that...
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Are you patronizing me?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  10. #40
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Are you patronizing me?
    Er no...why do you ask?
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