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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default An Fe-Fi negative convo

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    Please help me understand why she feels it is okay to be so mean to this poor women? Why is she wanting to "help" someone she says horrible things about all the time? My apologies for the Fi judgments in the convo...it seemed best to include how i felt vs what I actually said......
    Last edited by sculpting; 02-06-2011 at 10:25 AM.

  2. #2
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think one of the issues here, Orobas, is that Fe tends to assume that when you accept help from someone, you are also accepting some obligations as well - expressing appreciation, using the circumstances to make improvements, being careful of their belongings, prioritizing needs vs wants, being in charge of those under your care (others don't feel comfortable reprimanding someone else's children), doing what you can with the resources you have so that you will be dependent forever, and if you are not able to do these, then accepting direction or help etc.

    The woman cancelling her doctor appointments was harming her children, not the church people, and from their point of view it not only seemed irresponsible, but it also devalued the fact that they had reorganized their schedules to make it possible to offer a ride.

    Some of these things really do seem obvious to us, even though I'm realizing that it is not necessarily obvious to others. This particular situation was one where the Fe users needed to set things up differently from the outset rather than making assumptions, so that both parties had a clear idea of what was expected.

    Because Fe is action oriented, it tends to assume that information is conveyed for a reason and that if a problem shared has not been resolved, it is being shared because additional help from others is needed. Indirectly, the woman telling her story was taken as a request for help.

    Secondly, for those that have not dealt with people who have not been raised in a healthy environment, it is hard to believe that these details are not obvious. For me, it's only been after repeated involvements with a variety of parents that I've realized that what seems quite obvious to me really is not, especially if your growing up environment normalized certain behaviours. For example, at one home I went to, the woman didn't find it obvious that condoms, alcohol, medicine, lighters and sex toys do not belong on floor level in the living room with four children under 8 in the house. It wasn't obvious to her that when you are cleaning a place, you move everything you can off the floor, put the garbage in the garbage cans (which means you need to buy garbage cans!), you put the laundry in the hamper, you put food in the kitchen and then you vacuum. It wasn't obvious to her that she and her children should bathe at least once a week. It wasn't obvious that it makes more sense to store foods that break apart and get dragged all over the house (pop tarts, raman noodles, ice cream cones, Hallowe'en candy, pudding) in the cupboard and that the cans stored in the cupboard would be better on the floor if there wasn't space for both. I felt almost as if I was being insulting by explaining that, as I helped her reclaim her house, but a lot of it was truly stuff she had not known or considered and she was grateful. It wasn't obvious to her that you can avoid a lot of problems by having a morning routine and putting the kids to bed at night. It wasn't obvious to her that it is dangerous for children to eat remains of food that have been left out on plates for the better part of a week. It wasn't obvious to her that you shouldn't give your kids constant access to treats if you want them to eat nutritious food as well. It wasn't obvious that covering the floor registers with a mattress will make the rooms cold. It wasn't obvious that not having a wallet and scattering important pieces of ID or money amongst garbage and clutter would have negative consequences for her. It wasn't obvious to her that you shouldn't leave your children with people who have a history of being sex offenders. This was a person who had access to some money and who had a beautiful house provided for her. She needed education and accountability though if those things were going to be of use to her or her kids. She had all of the extras and none of the basics.

    The ISTP saw the woman agreeing to be a guest in a building that was not her home. The woman saw herself as being invited by people she didn't know to set up her home there. To avoid this confusion, it would have been better for the church to offer their help, but with guidelines in place which would have prevented resentment from building. They felt taken for granted and that the couple was not using this opportunity to improve their situation. They were concerned about the kids and so did want to help in some way. It would have been much better if they had presented a time frame and some expectations for what needed to happen to make the situation work. It sounds to me though that they had not foreseen what kinds of issues might come up.

    I agree with you that it is not kind to offer criticism without helping a person to know how it could be avoided. They also need to be able to decide up front whether they are able to comply with what is being requested of them. To me this looks more than anything like a lack of experience in dealing with this kind of situation. Perhaps you can help them to see some of these things so that hurt or inconvenience on both sides could be avoided.

  3. #3
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Isn't Fe weakest for ISTP?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  4. #4
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think so, but church environmets are often Fe heavier.

  5. #5
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    ummm. Are the "horrible things" true? From what you've said here I'm concerned for the children....is child services aware of anything that's going on? I'm only hearing your side of the story and even that doesn't seem like a healthy situation.

    It seems to me that lack of criticism can sometimes be as bad as excessive criticism. I don't know the situation so I can't say if that is the case here, but some of the things she mentioned do seem concerning...

    I'm not sure it's Fi-Fe here so much as Fi-Not Fi. ISTPs aren't known for strong Fe.
    -end of thread-

  6. #6
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    In my experience, social services often will not act unless things are very serious (like death inducing serious). Even then, children are fairly quickly returned to their situation. I believe it is important then to try to affect the parents instead, but to do so there needs to be some openness to getting help, which there didn't appear to be in this case. I think that the church people had some right to display concern, even if their method of addressing the problem needed some tweaking.

  7. #7
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    Yes, I don't like such inferior Fe madness or indeed churches for that matter. I'm sure people gawk in dismay at my Se moments also.

  8. #8
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Isn't Fe weakest for ISTP?
    Oddly this is true..however both her and my ex ISTP and many INTPs I have met here and IRL seem to use a very rough uneven Fe. What they feel may be unrefined compared to an Fe dom or aux, but they feel it VERY strongly and will not hesitate to be very strong and extroverted in their judgment. The Fe judgments pop up out of nowhere and are much more presumptous than an Fe dom or aux would be....I suppose more instinctual, due to the more subconscious nature. I love the ISTP dearly but she has driven me to stay away for months at a time as she hen-pecks me to death over my kids clothes matching, my clothing, my hair, how my car is too dirty, what I feed my kids. "Oh Tina, you know you can barely walk through a room, let alone, [complete task X]." This website has been awesome as it taught me to internally reframe her comments to me as signs of caring, rather than condemnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    ummm. Are the "horrible things" true? From what you've said here I'm concerned for the children....is child services aware of anything that's going on? I'm only hearing your side of the story and even that doesn't seem like a healthy situation.

    It seems to me that lack of criticism can sometimes be as bad as excessive criticism. I don't know the situation so I can't say if that is the case here, but some of the things she mentioned do seem concerning...

    I'm not sure it's Fi-Fe here so much as Fi-Not Fi. ISTPs aren't known for strong Fe.
    You are very correct in that there are issues that do need to be addressed. The family does need to be taught basic life skills and given a lot of feedback and guidance-in terms of lists and actions and instructions-but not slurs??? What disturbs me is how she speaks about these children and the women though. How can one say they care and want to help another person, but then say such terrible things about them? I dont understand how she can be sincere in wanting to help them, but then be so....evil minded towards them. Even the children-why would you call a child a dog? Later she spoke of how they had loaned the family $500 to buy a car but then went on a tirade about how she would file the car as stolen if the family missed even one payment. Every comment is laced with meanness and hatful spite towards these people...I just dont understand how then she would want to keep visiting the family if she finds them so terrible to be around...

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    In my experience, social services often will not act unless things are very serious (like death inducing serious). Even then, children are fairly quickly returned to their situation. I believe it is important then to try to affect the parents instead, but to do so there needs to be some openness to getting help, which there didn't appear to be in this case. I think that the church people had some right to display concern, even if their method of addressing the problem needed some tweaking.
    The parents actually were fairly responsive to the INTJ-he talked quite a bit to the husband about financial responsibility and being responsible for taking care of a wife and his children. He said the response was defensive but it seemed to sink in some. I explained your point above regarding child services to the ISTP as well-that child services (horrifically) is so overburdened with nightmarish instances of abuse, that unintentional neglect would not cause the children to be taken away, but efforts might be made to educate the mom...but she just ignored me and kept saying bad things about the mom and kids.

    It's almost like she doesnt want to help them, or feels compelled to help them even as she is disgusted by them. I dont understand it...

  9. #9
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think one of the issues here, Orobas, is that Fe tends to assume that when you accept help from someone, you are also accepting some obligations as well - expressing appreciation, using the circumstances to make improvements, being careful of their belongings, prioritizing needs vs wants, being in charge of those under your care (others don't feel comfortable reprimanding someone else's children), doing what you can with the resources you have so that you will be dependent forever, and if you are not able to do these, then accepting direction or help etc.
    Fidelai I wanted to respond to your comments earlier but ran short of time. I suppose Te assumes obligations, but they tend to be very defined and structured in terms of dollars, time span, rules and regulations and so on. It seems that no matter what this person did though, she was still seen in a negative light...it also seems that the past was not forgiven....I suppose the Fi/Te would criticize her in terms of her actions and responsibilities, but the rough Ti/Fe was all about her as a person...

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The woman cancelling her doctor appointments was harming her children, not the church people, and from their point of view it not only seemed irresponsible, but it also devalued the fact that they had reorganized their schedules to make it possible to offer a ride.
    But was it reasonable for them on each ride to speak of how much effort it took to reorganize their schedules and what a burden it is? For me, when I hear Fe assertions like this...it translates into weird Te guilt...it tells me I am using other people too much and I need to be more independent because what I hear is their Fi pain...It provokes an abrupt cutting off of communications with the other-a search for my own independence. It also, oddly comes across as another Fi user trying to manipulate me.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Some of these things really do seem obvious to us, even though I'm realizing that it is not necessarily obvious to others. This particular situation was one where the Fe users needed to set things up differently from the outset rather than making assumptions, so that both parties had a clear idea of what was expected.

    Because Fe is action oriented, it tends to assume that information is conveyed for a reason and that if a problem shared has not been resolved, it is being shared because additional help from others is needed. Indirectly, the woman telling her story was taken as a request for help.
    Agreed and these points make excellent sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Secondly, for those that have not dealt with people who have not been raised in a healthy environment, it is hard to believe that these details are not obvious. For me, it's only been after repeated involvements with a variety of parents that I've realized that what seems quite obvious to me really is not, especially if your growing up environment normalized certain behaviours.

    For example, at one home I went to, the woman didn't find it obvious that condoms, alcohol, medicine, lighters and sex toys do not belong on floor level in the living room with four children under 8 in the house.

    It wasn't obvious to her that when you are cleaning a place, you move everything you can off the floor, put the garbage in the garbage cans (which means you need to buy garbage cans!), you put the laundry in the hamper, you put food in the kitchen and then you vacuum.

    It took me several years cleaning my own house to figure out a repeated order. Even now it can be very difficult to sort and order my activities so that I can get all of this done in an efficient way. It is very draining and often i take miss things on the floor or just sweep stuff into a corner-meaning at some point later to pick it up. I have started just getting rid of things like furniture or carpets as it is easier to clean with them underfoot. I also threw out most of the baby's toys as I cant maintain a schedule of him picking them up, so it is easier to just not have them in the first place.

    It wasn't obvious to her that she and her children should bathe at least once a week.

    It wasn't obvious that it makes more sense to store foods that break apart and get dragged all over the house (pop tarts, raman noodles, ice cream cones, Hallowe'en candy, pudding) in the cupboard and that the cans stored in the cupboard would be better on the floor if there wasn't space for both. I felt almost as if I was being insulting by explaining that, as I helped her reclaim her house, but a lot of it was truly stuff she had not known or considered and she was grateful.

    ^^oh, excellent point!

    It wasn't obvious to her that you can avoid a lot of problems by having a morning routine and putting the kids to bed at night.

    ^^This one took years for me, and again since I am not innately structured, I end up having a very hard time keeping it running in a structured way. i build routines, but it takes so much effort to keep them, that I often drop them after a few days.


    It wasn't obvious to her that it is dangerous for children to eat remains of food that have been left out on plates for the better part of a week.

    It wasn't obvious to her that you shouldn't give your kids constant access to treats if you want them to eat nutritious food as well.

    ^^ My mominlaw will become upset with me as I let my kids snack all day. Not candy, but apples, cereal, cheese, yogurt. very often the little one doesnt eat a lot at dinner...he is already full. It doesnt bother me at all...but for some reason this is weird for her-she feels kids should eat in a certain way at certain times...

    It wasn't obvious that covering the floor registers with a mattress will make the rooms cold.

    Oh, I never would have thought of that, but good point.

    It wasn't obvious that not having a wallet and scattering important pieces of ID or money amongst garbage and clutter would have negative consequences for her.


    Once I lost my passport under a giant pile of paperwork on my desk. It was missing for months. I replace my credit cards on an annual basis as I place my wallet in a "special place". I know it is still around, but I never know where, so i cancel the cards just in case. About 8 years back i actually would sort bills, but now days I have no time so into giant bags they go. I have thrown away money on a routine basis...I can work really hard not to do this, but I have to exert an almost OCD compulsion to make sure I dont mess up.
    I wanted to call these examples out as some of them are actually really great examples of how Fe can be very STRUCTURED-as structured and organized as Te, if for different reasons. It may seem bizarre that some of these would not be obvious...but for the FPs I know, often you have to learn some lessons the hard way or actually be given guidance-about your actions-not your self as a person, mind you, but to be taught ways to structure things around you to be more responsible.

    Hehe, the first time I tried to cash a check, i ended up depositing a $1200 check from myself to myself....the bank was like WTF? But I guess...we really dont innately understand or see Fe structure and we have to work to gain Te structure....it isnt that we mean to be irresponsible...it's that it is a lot of work and takes maturity and time. So growing up poor white trash as an FP means that we can be exceptionally clueless...but what makes me hurt inside for her is how cruel the ISTPs judgments are to her as a person-they are almost belittling.

    That is the part I dont understand...I would like to understand as...I just dont get it. To get it allows me to not have to judge the ISTP as cruel, but just as viewing the world differently, thus her harshness is simply my misunderstanding.

  10. #10
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    It's interesting seeing your response because to me most of what she said was simply descriptive, if blunt.

    i.e. "kids run around like dogs" isn't the same thing (to me, I suppose) as saying "your kids are dogs"....in fact, the two are VERY different. If it was a positive thing, like "her kid is as cute as a puppy" or something, would you react the same way? To me it's just a description, i.e, running wild with little supervision or order, but you seem very taken aback by the particular wording. I suspect you're implying a meaning here (and perhaps in her other statements) that she doesn't actually mean at all.

    the rest along the same lines. I'm not saying she's not being harsh because she is, but mostly it's things like "omg she does X! (then, said or implied) Isn't that ridiculous?" which, while gossipy and perhaps shallow, doesn't seem horribly "cruel" to me. Especially when some of the things she's mentioning are pretty concerning.
    -end of thread-

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