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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

Poki

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I think if someone is uncomfortable with a situation, it's their responsibility to do something about it - whether that be "bending", asking for change, demanding, avoiding the situation, etc. Most people won't try to change their whole personality and ways of expression because someone else interprets it in a negative way (unless it's a serious problem).

Thanks for explaining more, though. It puts things in more perspective.

Yes. I thought this was common sense. Is it not? To me its owning your actions and taking responsibility for them. I dont like it when I cannot choose my own action. Life is a constant choice of actions.

edit: Its nice when someone else makes the choices though, but its even a choice to allow them to make the choice.
 

skylights

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_Poki_ said:
Yes. I thought this was common sense. Is it not? To me its owning your actions and taking responsibility for them.

well, yes, but sometimes it's a hard decision how far you should push your own Fi standards onto others. obviously speaking out against abuse or for human rights is appropriate, but there are a lot more ambiguous situations, like this one. you don't want to not speak out if it's important, because then you're betraying yourself and perpetuating harm, but you don't want to be unfair (some values are simply very personal decisions) or hurt others unnecessarily either.

i suspect it's less that way with Fe because Fe is more reliant on external circumstances... it's like kalach has described Ni, Fi is not so grounded in reality. a lot of values are based on the "ideal world" situation... hard to know how far to reasonably take that sometimes.

So I do wonder if perhaps these issues do extend into the real world-but the Fi users around you guys just dont say much about it??

i used to be very quiet when i was younger... then in my teens i started speaking up more around people i knew well - maybe too much so. it was like a testing ground, almost, and i feel bad that the people close to me bore the brunt of that. i feel more balanced now, try to choose my battles more wisely and confront people in a way i will not be embarrassed by later. it doesn't always work, as evidenced by my occasional dumb snap-reactions in the forums. but it's gotten better.

i also know that i am too F-sensitive when dealing with my INTP dad and brother, and could also use extra patience dealing with Fe sometimes. i don't feel very offended or restrained usually. i think with a little patience and a little charm we can wiggle our way around most situations :)
 

Vasilisa

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In my head I felt very offended, but I didnt speak up at all. If pushed very, very hard by an Fe user, I dont say anything but instead just walk away and avoid them. Very rarely would I speak up in return-it feels really rude to do so, as they have a right to feel what they feel...

My ESTP brother and ISTP father were ungentle with me growing up. Although I wouldn't call them "Fe users." It was recommended, that when they said harsh things to me, to tell them the truth, "it hurts my feelings when you say that" rather than cry or lash out. The logic being, that it takes a cold person to hear that and continue on.

In a way, to me, this whole thread seems to be about the poisonous nature of resentment. I just wonder if you could tell your friend, "It hurts me to hear you say these things." That way you are speaking your truth and also helping her know that she is diminishing herself in your eyes. I learned the hard way that people don't always react the way that you hope. But maybe being honest with your feelings is reward enough. :hug: I hope the best for every single person involved.
 

Poki

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My ESTP brother and ISTP father were ungentle with me growing up. Although I wouldn't call them "Fe users." It was recommended, that when they said harsh things to me, to tell them the truth, "it hurts my feelings when you say that" rather than cry or lash out. The logic being, that it takes a cold person to hear that and continue on.

In a way, to me, this whole thread seems to be about the poisonous nature of resentment. I just wonder if you could tell your friend, "It hurts me to hear you say these things." That way you are speaking your truth and also helping her know that she is diminishing herself in your eyes. I learned the hard way that people don't always react the way that you hope. But maybe being honest with your feelings is reward enough. :hug: I hope the best for every single person involved.

A person can easily rationalize that you are just TO sensitive or really anything to convince themselves of things and not even think/feel cold. Its part of life and our protection mechanisms. Something I have just accepted. Doesnt mean you have to deal with these people, just understand thats how people are.
 

Totenkindly

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Please help me understand why she feels it is okay to be so mean to this poor women? Why is she wanting to "help" someone she says horrible things about all the time? My apologies for the Fi judgments in the convo...it seemed best to include how i felt vs what I actually said......

I didn't really like all the assumptions I saw floating around in what the "ISTP" woman was saying, but I didn't really like all the parallel assumptions you made in your Fi scree about the ISTP woman either. The judgment calls go both ways.

Tallulah said:
This could definitely be the case. When we vent to someone, there's usually an unspoken expectation that the person is "on our side," because we have some estimation of the relationship, and feel close enough to the person that we feel like they know where we're coming from. We don't have to say, "I know I'm being a real bitch right now, but I just have to vent..." because we feel like the other person knows we're not trying to be nasty, knows what kind of person we are.

Yeah. Totally identify. I have a few key friends who I can allow myself to "appear" potentially as ugly as need be in the sake of just being honest about my feeligns. But these people have been screened heavily and they have proven their ability to grasp me and my intentions. So I can trust when I try not to present myself in a good light, they'll still see what I perceive to be the "real me."

BUT if we feel that way about the person we're venting to, and they don't feel like they know us as well, or are as close to us as we think we are to them, it all goes off the rails. And can be really potentially damaging/embarrassing for the venter, because they wouldn't have opened their mouths if they didn't think the ventee would take it in the spirit in which it was intended. And therefore it becomes kind of obvious you'd misread the nature of the relationship.

Yeah. That can be emotionally dangerous and thus very painful for both people involved.

I know it would be deeply embarrassing for me to vent to a friend and find out later that they were horrified by what I'd said, and that it possibly changed how they saw me as a person. Especially if they used words like "cruel." Because I know I'm not a cruel person, and it would just indicate that they really, really didn't know me. I don't know if I'd be able to carry on a friendship in that kind of situation. Partly because I know they'd be thinking that about me, and partly because I'd be thinking, well, if you can't handle that, we're probably not going to relate well to each other.

Again, the same here, very much so... but we usually have the same experience with this stuff anyway. :)

Anyway, I think it's always good to be cautious who you allow to see the shadow side OR the negative side of your personality, unless you're prepared for the consequences. It's the same as my dark humor -- there are people I can just say very dry things around without having to cue that I'm joking and I know they'll grasp me, but if someone doesn't know me, they could end up thinking I'm a twisted, sick bitch with some of the things that can slip out of my mouth sometimes. (At least, I hope I'm not.)

It's pretty clear already from this forum over the last number of months that some flavors of Fe vs Fi just don't read each other well and probably need to be more careful how they interact with each other.
 

Vasilisa

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A person can easily rationalize that you are just TO sensitive or really anything to convince themselves of things and not even think/feel cold. Its part of life and our protection mechanisms. Something I have just accepted. Doesnt mean you have to deal with these people, just understand thats how people are.

True, but at least it helps clarify. And clarity can help bring understanding.
 

Poki

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well, yes, but sometimes it's a hard decision how far you should push your own Fi standards onto others. obviously speaking out against abuse or for human rights is appropriate, but there are a lot more ambiguous situations, like this one. you don't want to not speak out if it's important, because then you're betraying yourself and perpetuating harm, but you don't want to be unfair (some values are simply very personal decisions) or hurt others unnecessarily either.

I dont know what it is about Fi, but they way it projects itself onto others takes on responsilibility that it should not. This is my T side speaking. Its one thing to try and to care, but another to blame yourself for not trying harder or caring more. Do what you can, what you want and let go of the rest.
 

proteanmix

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Orobas, this is still puzzling me throughout this thread: why won't you acknowledge there may be genuine neglect happening? Because you may have to do something about it? Why are you focusing on your MIL's commentary rather than investigating in earnest whether this couple is truly neglecting their children?
 

sculpting

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Orobas, this is still puzzling me throughout this thread: why won't you acknowledge there may be genuine neglect happening? Because you may have to do something about it? Why are you focusing on your MIL's commentary rather than investigating in earnest whether this couple is truly neglecting their children?

(Might I note a perspective shift on your part? It's okay but it does deviate back into an earlier portion of the thread a bit and sort of change the topic of the current convo, and begins to shift the convo to me as a person, rather than a discussion of where communication/judgments failed in the OP.)

Simply put-that wasnt the goal of the thread?

Thread Goal-Exploration of a very negative Fi: Fe experience IRL and gain an understanding of why/what is missing in communication and why her words struck me so harshly. Understand how she could feel this way, say one thing and act in another.

The purpose is not to 1) judge MIL is EVIL, 2) develop action plans to address family needs or 3) ascertain the absolute truth of neglect

There may be genuine neglect happening, but according to the fairly objective criteria you listed a few posts earlier, this does not appear to be the case on information shared by MIL or DIL or what I have observed. If I use the term neglect, I recognize the very severe implications that invokes. It isnt simply that you are not raising kids according to how I would do so, but that you are failing in any of the categories you mentioned. MIL uses "neglect" thus far as a term of frustration and it represents her opinions-but does not meet the objective criteria you mentioned. However I do recognize how the concern over real neglect does feed into understanding the MILs commentary and perspective from the posters in the thread.
 

proteanmix

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(Might I note a perspective shift on your part? It's okay but it does deviate back into an earlier portion of the thread a bit and sort of change the topic of the current convo, and begins to shift the convo to me as a person, rather than a discussion of where communication/judgments failed in the OP.)

As far as my participation in the thread, when I read the OP it was never about it being a Fe-Fi communication misfire, I've always wanted to know whether or not there is neglect happening. To me, it seemed that you were avoiding investigating whether or not neglect was a serious possibility and instead focusing on the fact that you didn't like the way your MIL talked about the family. I still don't believe your MIL holds these people in contempt, disdain, or harbors ill-feeling towards them. As I'm interpreting what you described in the OP, you were privy to a vent of frustration that probably shouldn't have been said to you because you don't really want to get involved in the situation if something is legitimately amiss.

I still am not sure how you know about the intricacies of the situation considering you are 200 miles away. From what I understand, you have had few encounters with this family and most of what you know about the situation is secondhand through your MIL. Is this correct? From what I understand, you have taken no action to understand the depth of the situation from the couple, not through you MIL, not what you see from a distance. Is this correct? From what I understand, you believe your MIL is judging this woman and her care of her children on petty and unrealistic standards, i.e. meals not according to a strict schedule (according to your MILs definition of what proper feeding is), canceling drs. appt because of being oppressed by the MIL, the church strongarming this woman and her family into their edicts and commands. Is this correct?

I have no reason to believe your interpretation of your MIL's comments above your MILs assessment of the situation. Your MIL has had the most interaction with this family and has seen things that I know you CANNOT of have seen simply because you are 200 miles away and simply not present to witness events.

Thread Goal-Exploration of a very negative Fi: Fe experience IRL and gain an understanding of why/what is missing in communication and why her words struck me so harshly. Understand how she could feel this way, say one thing and act in another.

Once again, I don't see her acting in one way, behaving in another. You have made the assumption of you MILs true motivations and feelings towards this family, your Fi scree as someone described it. Another thing I wanted to bring up is this is of course your ex MIL. You have a previous relationship with her due to a marriage and you history of interactions with her that color your perspective and interpretations of her comments towards her irrespective of her current dealings with this family. My Fe is poking through and you know it's all about relationships, bridges, and connections people have to one another as well. I have speculated about how your past with your MIL is coloring how you view her treatment of this family. I'm a speculative person and can't help but wonder, I'm not trying to cast doubt on you but like I said, hey I'm thinking it...it's rolling around in my head.

Furthermore, you open yourself for me to speculate about you when you started the thread. I don't see why it's a problem that I ask you about your personal involvement in this vein. You opened your psyche up for us to roam around in, and I'm walking around picking up stuff and opening drawers and cupboards. Is this a guided tour and I entered a room For Authorized Personnel Only? Is the best thing for me not to say explicitly what I'm wondering about you? Am I making the same mistake your MIL made...thinking I can verbalize my thoughts and I really can't broadcast them? My goals in this thread are different from yours and if I choose the explore my curiosities and speculation, what's the problem with that? I am more than willing to take this to PM if you feel this is a derail.

The purpose is not to 1) judge MIL is EVIL, 2) develop action plans to address family needs or 3) ascertain the absolute truth of neglect

OK, well then I have automatically gone to 2 and 3. That's what mode I'm in. Why aren't those your goals? ETA: Please understand my POV. I'm hearing you as saying, "I'm more interested in figuring out why I feel the way I feel than actually helping people in need." That's illogical to me. One of the things I know I've seen you say repeatedly on this forum is that you go the the person in greatest need. Is this not a clear-cut situation of people in the greatest need?

There may be genuine neglect happening, but according to the fairly objective criteria you listed a few posts earlier, this does not appear to be the case on information shared by MIL or DIL or what I have observed. If I use the term neglect, I recognize the very severe implications that invokes. It isnt simply that you are not raising kids according to how I would do so, but that you are failing in any of the categories you mentioned. MIL uses "neglect" thus far as a term of frustration and it represents her opinions-but does not meet the objective criteria you mentioned. However I do recognize how the concern over real neglect does feed into understanding the MILs commentary and perspective from the posters in the thread.

I've already questioned the extent to what your observations are valid, being 200 miles away and all. How far would you go to figure out if there is real neglect happening, regardless of your MIL questionable assessment and observations?
 

Z Buck McFate

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Thread Goal-Exploration of a very negative Fi: Fe experience IRL and gain an understanding of why/what is missing in communication and why her words struck me so harshly. Understand how she could feel this way, say one thing and act in another.

I have been told myself that I sound too sure of things when I vent, that I phrase them in such a way that it sounds like I’ve made finalized decisions. I related very much to what Tallulah wrote. I am careful who I vent to because of it. I get hurt and offended if someone- whom I had trusted knew me well- sees my venting as cruel. I don’t think I ever make finalized value judgments about people. I’m not making non-negotiable declarations when I vent, I’m issuing statements about the way things appear to me. If I’m particularly heated in doing so, it’s because I’ve found <whatever I’m venting about> particularly troubling. Quite often, I vent to work out conflicting information in my head (e.g. “I want to help these people get back on their feet” and “They aren’t using my help to get back on their feet”).

I don’t think it’s a matter of feeling one thing and acting in another. When I vent, it’s because I’m trying to figure out what I feel in the first place, it’s because I’ve got contradictory sentiments happening simultaneously and I’m trying to merge them.

edit: I agree with others who have stated this woman sounds like a J (I get this impression, even with the little information you can get about a stranger in a thread). Js can have a very hard time making sense of external situations that deviate drastically from the direction in which they anticipated events would unfold.
 

PeaceBaby

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How far would you go to figure out if there is real neglect happening, regardless of your MIL questionable assessment and observations?

Since geography has no bearing in your opinion, how far would you go? You could contact O, find out the name of the church, make a donation or pay a visit. ?

Just curious.
 

proteanmix

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Now I'm wondering something else about people calling FJs nosy.

I know when I hear something about another person that I don't know whether to believe or not, I go straight to the horse and ask. I know that I have gone up to the object of gossip or speculation and said "Hey I'm not trying to be all up in your business, but I've heard XYZ. Is this true?"

I do this because I feel like I'm trying to get to the truth of something and if I ask the person in question directly, hence filtering out lies and BS. Of course this all depends on how comfortable the person feels in telling me the truth, but I feel like at least I asked and tried to see what was really going on. I'm just wondering now if this is what people think when the call FJs nosy and being in things they don't belong in.

Since geography has no bearing in your opinion, how far would you go? You could contact O, find out the name of the church, make a donation or pay a visit. ?

Just curious.

Yep, that's what I believe I'm doing right now.
 

Tallulah

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Great post on page 10, Orobas--my answer is, no, you can't expect her to change her venting style to make you more comfortable, and it helps if you can see that she's just venting and isn't a cruel person. I think you could ask her not to vent to you if it still makes you uncomfortable, though. Maybe tell her you tend to internalize it when you hear things that sound negative, and it stresses you out, even though you know it's just venting. My sister calls me to vent because she knows I won't internalize it or think it's anger directed at me or anything. My mom doesn't respond well to venting, so my sister learned that and doesn't vent to her anymore.

BUT, one thing I've learned from these Fe-Fi threads is not to get upset when a Fi friend feels something is wrong in our relationship and says potentially hurtful things in the heat of the moment. I've learned that that usually means that they really care about the friendship and (sometimes) will say things like that just to get things in the open and keep you engaged and communicating. It really throws me for a loop, because I'd never say those things unless I was prepared to deal with long term consequences or the possible end of a friendship, but Fi seems to be fine after it's gotten it out in the open. So I know now not to attach as much weight to it as I would if I were dealing with an Fe friend. So yeah, I'm learning to flex to Fi, too.

As far as Vasilisa's comment about saying "You hurt my feelings when you say that..." that's fine if someone has hurt YOUR feelings. But if that's your tactic to get an Fe user to stop venting to you, they'll probably be embarrassed AND think you're overly sensitive. Seriously. Because she's not venting about you, she's venting about someone else. See my first paragraph if you want ISTP to stop venting to you.

Edit: YES, Z Buck! Me, too. I vent to resolve conflicts and frustrations, too. Nothing is ever set in stone. Sometimes what I say is just giving voice to something that's been rolling around in my head and bothering me, resulting in my feeling powerless. Sometimes I can vent about it and kind of resolve it and then need to come back through it again, b/c it bothers me so much. But it's always getting someone else's opinion so I won't go nuts, and getting it out of my head so I won't go nuts.
 

PeaceBaby

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Yep, that's what I believe I'm doing right now.

What do you believe you are doing right now? Helping the situation by pressing O into doing something?

I was asking about you, personally, getting involved - you taking action for this family. How far are you willing to go? If it's only as far as pressing O here in this thread, then I get that. How much farther?

I feel your challenge, and I take you up on it. You seem very "in your face" at the moment but I am willing to take this farther.


Are you spurred to action? Wanna work together and come up with an action plan for this family with me? Think about it.

Edit: just saw your rep. Let's do this! :)
 
Last edited:

cascadeco

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Goodness, this is a rather bizarre thread.

Tallulah, definitely related to your comment on venting only to those you really trust and have a more invested relationship with. And to Jennifer's point... for me, to be able to show the negative or confused thoughts/opinions going on in my head (or, truthfully, even the solid/unchanging but not-so-nice opinions that I've formed), and actually externalizing them, means I trust enough in the relationship and that the other person isn't going to be hurt or offended by what I say. Because, well...that's ME. So it's like...if they can't take those rougher edges, then in the end they can't really take me in my entirety. I think this is why I have so few relationships where I can show the majority or all of my sides. Most people get the bits and pieces that I think they can take or *understand*.

But... in the end... isn't this what most adults end up doing? Learn as they grow up that they need to be selective in who they let in? Figuring out who to allow close into their life and who not? I suppose we all just have our unique traits and needs out or relationships.

It's, um, probably notable that irl my close friends are either INFJ's or xNTJ's, with a few NTP's and an ISFJ thrown in. I don't really have any super close NFP friends - or SFP ones, actually. I think I've always had difficulty with dom/aux Fi - my more unvarnished, full self is going to be less palatable and ripe for dissension and misunderstanding to them, and to be fair, theirs is to me too. So, yeah. Everyone's going to have their own preferences and also it's not going to be super clearcut within a type - I mean, I know other NFJ's on here who have close NFP friends so it's pretty individual too.
 

Randomnity

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I have been told myself that I sound too sure of things when I vent, that I phrase them in such a way that it sounds like I’ve made finalized decisions. I related very much to what Tallulah wrote. I am careful who I vent to because of it. I get hurt and offended if someone- whom I had trusted knew me well- sees my venting as cruel. I don’t think I ever make finalized value judgments about people. I’m not making non-negotiable declarations when I vent, I’m issuing statements about the way things appear to me. If I’m particularly heated in doing so, it’s because I’ve found <whatever I’m venting about> particularly troubling. Quite often, I vent to work out conflicting information in my head (e.g. “I want to help these people get back on their feet” and “They aren’t using my help to get back on their feet”).

I don’t think it’s a matter of feeling one thing and acting in another. When I vent, it’s because I’m trying to figure out what I feel in the first place, it’s because I’ve got contradictory sentiments happening simultaneously and I’m trying to merge them.
Exactly. And I refuse to believe Fi just believes everyone is sunshine and rainbows 100% of the time and Fi never badmouths anyone EVARR (well, you can look on the forum for lots of evidence of the latter, so I know that part isn't true). Is it just that Fi doesn't vocalize their negative feelings about anyone until they've decided the person is a despicable human being? From the horrified Fi reaction here it kinda seems like that might be so....which would be very interesting.

(as in, Fi here is reading the negative words of the istp - and we still don't know whether they are just 100% factual rather than negative whining - as proof that the istp has "cruelly" decided that this woman is a despicable human being)
 

proteanmix

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What do you believe you are doing right now? Helping the situation by pressing O into doing something?

I was asking about you, personally, getting involved - you taking action for this family. How far are you willing to go? If it's only as far as pressing O here in this thread, then I get that. How much farther?

I feel your challenge, and I take you up on it. You seem very "in your face" at the moment but I am willing to take this farther.


Are you spurred to action? Wanna work together and come up with an action plan for this family with me? Think about it.

These are the suggestions I've made on what can be done in this thread:

1. If money management is an issue, is Orobas willing to teach the woman basics of money management. I suggested that she collaborate with the woman via Google Docs (or whatever collaboration tools they find) and help her build a basic budget. That does not require being within the same geographic reason as long as the woman has internet access.
2. If the woman is in need of emotional support, is Orobas willing to get the woman a prepaid cell and just talk to her a couple of times per month.
3. Ask the woman personally, what her needs are if she can support or assist her.

If Orobas chooses to give me the information for the church, I promise I will make a monetary donation. You have my word right now in this thread. If you're asking me how far I would personally go to find out if there is neglect, then if Orobas gives me the name and location of the family I will call their local Social Services and tell them my concerns. I'll allow the local social services to judge whether there is legitimate neglect happening, because I don't think Orobas is in any position to make that call and O feels her MIL is misappraising the situation. I have done this several times before when I heard my neighbor beating the hell out of his girlfriend. I don't play around with this if I think something is really going on, and I have no problems with doing it.

I think it would look extremely odd for me, an anonymous internet person to ask specifically about the details of this situation regarding this family to the MIL and the family in question. If you're asking would I make contact with the family in question personally, I'm scrambling my brain with how I could gracefully, without outing how I know about the situation and I do feel uncomfortable with doing that. But I'm in a different position that Orobas, she has at least met them while I have not. She's in a better position to be of meaningful assistance than me.

This is what I would do if O let's me know who the people are.
 

Vasilisa

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As far as Vasilisa's comment about saying "You hurt my feelings when you say that..." that's fine if someone has hurt YOUR feelings. But if that's your tactic to get an Fe user to stop venting to you, they'll probably be embarrassed AND think you're overly sensitive. Seriously. Because she's not venting about you, she's venting about someone else. See my first paragraph if you want ISTP to stop venting to you.
I don't know if I posted that for tactical purposes. I felt for what Orobas said about having to bend, and I offered a suggestion for mental health in situations sort of similar. Orobas can use whatever adjective describes her feeling. All I am saying is that it can help to just honestly express that heartfelt emotion, without any qualifiers (I'm just easily hurt, I'm squeamish to negativity) or perceptions/projections regarding the other party (you sound so cruel it makes me want to scream) and see how they react and go from there. Someone can dismiss any emotion you admit to for any reason, but they cannot deny it. It can be a way to start a dialogue if both parties have an interest in that. They may not. Mostly I see it as a possible way for Orobas to feel true to her heart and true to her friend.
 

PeaceBaby

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proteanmix, thanks for your reply. I appreciate it; I appreciate you.

These are the suggestions I've made on what can be done in this thread:

1. If money management is an issue, is Orobas willing to teach the woman basics of money management. I suggested that she collaborate with the woman via Google Docs (or whatever collaboration tools they find) and help her build a basic budget. That does not require being within the same geographic reason as long as the woman has internet access.
2. If the woman is in need of emotional support, is Orobas willing to get the woman a prepaid cell and just talk to her a couple of times per month.
3. Ask the woman personally, what her needs are if she can support or assist her.

Those are all good suggestions. They presuppose naturally, that O can establish a rapport and trust with this young mom, and the young mom is open to it.

If Orobas chooses to give me the information for the church, I promise I will make a monetary donation. You have my word right now in this thread.

Awesome - there are ways we can make a monetary donation and keep it anonymous. If there are more people interested in this thread to give a small donation towards some specific help for this family, I can set this up.

If you're asking me how far I would personally go to find out if there is neglect, then if Orobas gives me the name and location of the family I will call their local Social Services and tell them my concerns. I'll allow the local social services to judge whether there is legitimate neglect happening, because I don't think Orobas is in any position to make that call and O feels her MIL is misappraising the situation. I have done this several times before when I heard my neighbor beating the hell out of his girlfriend. I don't play around with this if I think something is really going on, and I have no problems with doing it.

Let's be careful about that step. Needs some research first. If ISTP MIL hasn't felt the need to go that far, I am going to trust her judgement atm that it doesn't need to happen.

I think it would look extremely odd for me, an anonymous internet person to ask specifically about the details of this situation regarding this family to the MIL and the family in question. If you're asking would I make contact with the family in question personally, I'm scrambling my brain with how I could gracefully, without outing how I know about the situation and I do feel uncomfortable with doing that. But I'm in a different position that Orobas, she has at least met them while I have not. She's in a better position to be of meaningful assistance than me.

Agreed; the cool thing is - there is stuff we could do without directly involving the family or embarrassing anyone. That's where some creative brainstorming comes into play. If you and other folks are serious about this in thread, I will explore some avenues and come back with answers so we can plan further. Interested?

Anyone else here too is welcome to please PM me or post on my wall.
 
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