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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

Tallulah

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Orangey, Randomnity, Protean and cascade have made all the points I would have attempted to make, but I'll add this:

It greatly bothers me that the ISTP's venting is being characterized by Orobas as "cruel." Saying a few unkind things out of frustration doesn't even begin to approach what I would consider to be cruel behavior. That is a bit dramatic. Cruel behavior would be giving them hope and taking it away on a whim, just to watch them suffer. Cruel would be telling her to her face what a horrible mother she is, and berating her for not making a better life for her children. Cruel would be letting them stay on the streets, in the cold, with no place to stay, and small children to house, knowing that you could provide shelter for them, at least temporarily. Maybe "cruel" is a slight exaggeration on Orobas' part...? Maybe like some of the ISTP's rhetoric was in her vent session? If so, it should be a little easier for Orobas to understand. Because if she really sees the venting as "cruel," it must be unbearable to live in this world for Fi.

The post you took so much offense, to, Orobas--Orangey's post--made some very, very good points. Why is it so much better to have warm, fuzzy feelings about this woman, than to actually DO something that helps her out, that gets her off the street, that puts food in her children's mouths? Why does the ISTP get painted in such an unkind light? She's actually DOING something. Venting is her coping mechanism. Why fault her for it? Why not see it for what it is?

Something else I've noticed is that the moment someone professes to be a Christian, people will come out of the woodwork to judge YOU for judging others, or for not being absolutely perfectly Christlike at all times. Christians are human. The Christian life is a journey, a lifelong process of trying to live according to Christ's teachings. Maybe the ISTP is working on herself. Maybe she extended herself in an act of charity, trying to do the right thing, but it's a challenge for her to deal with the repercussions of other people's behavior? Maybe she needs to work on that, and maybe she knows she needs to work on that. Maybe she's working on that, and she'll work on gossiping later? Christians aren't perfect, but many are really trying to do the best they can. That's something you won't know unless you're inside her head, though.
 

sculpting

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proteanmix;1462282 [LIST said:
[*]She also hasn’t toilet trained any of them,
[*]The kids are sick all of the time because she is filthy and her children are filthy.
[*]They wear diapers all day long and she doesn’t dress them in clothes at all or even bother to clean.
[*]She was using the paper plates and napkins in the kitchen and left dirty dishes in the sink.
[*]The diaper bin was full and the whole church smelled bad.
[/LIST]

Are those valid reasons to be upset and frustrated?
.


So to address these points more specifically...the ISTP does see these as signs of neglect and poor parenting. I disagree. She is making a lot of noise, but when probed on each count she didnt provide in depth support for her claims-instead she would attack from a different angle...ah very Nish actually. Silly context shifts. Like she was looking for reasons to poke, once i discounted her first point actually.

  • The kids are not potty trained-but they are under three. Many, many kids-including her four grand children were not potty trained until three. This is not neglect.
  • They are sick all the time-having colds and ear infectious has little to do with a dirty face. All the kids and many adults are actually sick this year-including her grandkids and poor ummy who keeps getting sick from my kid. It is just a rough fall/winter to be honest with a lot of crap going around. This is not neglect.
  • She was using church paper plates and not doing dishes. She had a dirty diaper pail and the church smelled.-Once she asked them to address these issues, they were addressed and not repeated. But she keeps bringing the issue back to light even though the problem was solved. This was potentially not thoughtful, but if the issue was addressed-it is over isnt it?
  • They wear diapers all day long and she doesn’t dress them in clothes at all-so the diapers are a requirement if not potty trained. But is it a requirement or neglect to let kids run around in your living area in a diaper without wearing an outfit? To call that neglect would be silly. Tacky, sure, but neglect?
  • Her and her kids were dirty--little kids are dirty, messy creatures. Three little kids are a lot to keep up with. It doesnt surprise me that the kids are not perfectly clean (actually there isnt a bathtub there or a shower-they go to the YMCA to bathe). But is a dirty kid neglect? Again tacky, sure, but neglect?

  • The kids eat everyday. My MIL just didnt like it that the mom gave them milk in a sippy cup or what the mom fed them or that they didnt eat at the same time everyday. Neglect? no...

Its the same story with all of the complaints. Is it ideal parenting? perhaps not, but the complaints are not legitimate according to any external objective measure of "neglect". In her opinion it is neglect-because it isnt what she would do....it doesnt fit her specific ideas of what "good parents" do...In my mind legit complaints are inability to pay bills, feed children, or physical/emotional/sexual abuse of these children. These children are not abused at all and to say so is silly.

I address that discrepancy, that is what unsettles me as a Fe user. That is inconsistent, that is where actions, behaviors, words, and feelings misalign. To me that is the travesty of the situation. You say you love your kids, you hug them and kiss them, but you won't even change their dirty diapers? How is that consistent? How is that caring and loving?.

What determines what we provide to our children as parents? We each give birth and then identify the things that we find most important to bring them as healthy adults. We impart our values and our ideas about the way we think they should live. As we do so, we select what WE value. I value ideals over external displays of politeness or over structured environments, thus in effect I devalue some things that some Fe users would innately value. I love the child enough to impress my values upon them I suppose.

Where is the line drawn? How many "actions" must one fail to do before it becomes "neglect"?

A dirty diaper is seen as a sign of no love? Taking your kid to the store in just a diaper? Unbrushed hair? bottle cavities? Mismatched socks? A crooked haircut? Letting the dog kiss them? Hair that is too long? Clothes that dont make a cute outfit? A dirty face? Not using napkins at dinner time? Dirt in the corner? Drinking milk through the big straw rather than the skinny straw? Not pulling their hand in the air everytime they cough? giving them milk when they have a cold? Letting them drink sprite with a happy meal? Feeding them happy meals? Pants that are too short? Letting kids sing loudly in the cart at the grocery store? Letting them take off their shoes during dinner at a restaurant? Eating french toast and ice cream for dinner? Putting them to bed grimy because they fell asleep on the way home from the playground? Letting them open the door of the freezer and drive thomas through the bag of busted flour, then through it in the air to create "snowclap"? Oh, there was that time he filled the vacuum up with water put of the facet...

I know this seems like a silly distinction and I know this ISFP and family needs to improve things, no argument...but how and where do lines get drawn about what actions consititute good parenting? (I am totally cool with firm guidelines on this...I am more hesitant about opinions or what "should" be done and more looking for what needs to be done)
 

PeaceBaby

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The point made in the above paragraph is a good one, and it seems like the church woman is also being condemned for not already knowing it (just like it seems she is condemning the ISFP for not *magically* picking up on certain ‘rules’). Just like it would be best to reserve harsh judgment on the ISFP until she refused to do things that were made clear to her- wouldn’t it be best to reserve judgment on the church woman until she was given a chance to consider new information?

Agreed.

Christians are human. The Christian life is a journey, a lifelong process of trying to live according to Christ's teachings. Maybe the ISTP is working on herself. Maybe she extended herself in an act of charity, trying to do the right thing, but it's a challenge for her to deal with the repercussions of other people's behavior? Maybe she needs to work on that, and maybe she knows she needs to work on that. Maybe she's working on that, and she'll work on gossiping later? Christians aren't perfect, but many are really trying to do the best they can. That's something you won't know unless you're inside her head, though.

Agreed.

-----

Another small thought: why O says the venting is cruel is because if the young mom is an ISFP, her Fi will almost certainly pick up on the negative feelings from the ISTP. Unlike an Fe user, she will not be able to readily dissociate the feelings this other person has for her from her feelings about herself. She will feel that if this person finds me useless and contemptible, that's what I must be. She'll hear it in her tone, and feel it from her manner, and see it in her actions. It's just the way young Fi orients. It tends to believe that the feelings other people have for you are legitimate, more so even than one's own opinion of oneself.

That's the part that's cruel folks. It will cause the hurt Fi to withdraw and the ability to really help here will suffer for it. I am not blaming anyone in particular for that either. It takes a great deal of experience to feel out what tool is the best to help each individual with.

It's very likely the ISTP is venting because she feels her opportunity to help is slipping away, and can't for the life of her understand why.
 

sculpting

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Complaining about this feels more condemnatory than just "blowing off steam" ... it feels like writing people off as losers, failures, which feels wrong to do. Does that help explain it?

Tallulah^^Peace baby captured why it seems cruel here. She is venting-but it is exceptionally unkind. Even if she and other Ti users wouldnt feel it to be meant to be unkind, if heard by the person being commented on, it would do a great deal of emo damage and actually defeat the efforts being made to help the person.

Orangey, Randomnity, Protean and cascade have made all the points I would have attempted to make, but I'll add this:

It greatly bothers me that the ISTP's venting is being characterized by Orobas as "cruel." Saying a few unkind things out of frustration doesn't even begin to approach what I would consider to be cruel behavior. That is a bit dramatic. Cruel behavior would be giving them hope and taking it away on a whim, just to watch them suffer. Cruel would be telling her to her face what a horrible mother she is, and berating her for not making a better life for her children. Cruel would be letting them stay on the streets, in the cold, with no place to stay, and small children to house, knowing that you could provide shelter for them, at least temporarily. Maybe "cruel" is a slight exaggeration on Orobas' part...? Maybe like some of the ISTP's rhetoric was in her vent session? If so, it should be a little easier for Orobas to understand. Because if she really sees the venting as "cruel," it must be unbearable to live in this world for Fi..

You guys do call us overly sensitive... :)

The post you took so much offense, to, Orobas--Orangey's post--made some very, very good points. Why is it so much better to have warm, fuzzy feelings about this woman, than to actually DO something that helps her out, that gets her off the street, that puts food in her children's mouths? Why does the ISTP get painted in such an unkind light? She's actually DOING something. Venting is her coping mechanism. Why fault her for it? Why not see it for what it is?.

It wasnt simply the warm fuzzys...it was the notion of not having respect for others and the idea it is okay to look at others with contempt but then profess to want to help them.

Something else I've noticed is that the moment someone professes to be a Christian, people will come out of the woodwork to judge YOU for judging others, or for not being absolutely perfectly Christlike at all times. Christians are human. The Christian life is a journey, a lifelong process of trying to live according to Christ's teachings. Maybe the ISTP is working on herself. Maybe she extended herself in an act of charity, trying to do the right thing, but it's a challenge for her to deal with the repercussions of other people's behavior? Maybe she needs to work on that, and maybe she knows she needs to work on that. Maybe she's working on that, and she'll work on gossiping later? Christians aren't perfect, but many are really trying to do the best they can. That's something you won't know unless you're inside her head, though.

Perhaps this behavior is because of the drive to convert or evangalize? Thus a person is telling you how you are flawed and live in sin and need to change and live according to the ideals of a religion, but you watch them as they "work" on their issues by treating others badly, being judgmental and being gossipy. (maybe we could all wear nametags with what issue we are working on? :)) It creates a very bizarre contrast and is actually repulsive when you feel as though you lead a reasonably good life. I suspect that if the drive to convert was not so strongly exerted, then you would not see this sort of critique nearly so often.
 

sculpting

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Agreed.



Agreed.

-----

Another small thought: why O says the venting is cruel is because if the young mom is an ISFP, her Fi will almost certainly pick up on the negative feelings from the ISTP. Unlike an Fe user, she will not be able to readily dissociate the feelings this other person has for her from her feelings about herself. She will feel that if this person finds me useless and contemptible, that's what I must be. She'll hear it in her tone, and feel it from her manner, and see it in her actions. It's just the way young Fi orients. It tends to believe that the feelings other people have for you are legitimate, more so even than one's own opinion of oneself.

That's the part that's cruel folks. It will cause the hurt Fi to withdraw and the ability to really help here will suffer for it. I am not blaming anyone in particular for that either. It takes a great deal of experience to feel out what tool is the best to help each individual with.

It's very likely the ISTP is venting because she feels her opportunity to help is slipping away, and can't for the life of her understand why.

well said PB. (Also ZBuck, excellent points as well.)
 

Z Buck McFate

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Another small thought: why O says the venting is cruel is because if the young mom is an ISFP, her Fi will almost certainly pick up on the negative feelings from the ISTP. Unlike an Fe user, she will not be able to readily dissociate the feelings this other person has for her from her feelings about herself. She will feel that if this person finds me useless and contemptible, that's what I must be. She'll hear it in her tone, and feel it from her manner, and see it in her actions. It's just the way young Fi orients. It tends to believe that the feelings other people have for you are legitimate, more so even than one's own opinion of oneself.

That's the part that's cruel folks. It will cause the hurt Fi to withdraw and the ability to really help here will suffer for it. I am not blaming anyone in particular for that either. It takes a great deal of experience to feel out what tool is the best to help each individual with.

This is the point I was trying to make myself- that it is possible to do harm by 'helping', if the church woman wasn't hiding her criticism very well. Only I don't see how it applies especially to Fi users. Anyone woman who is 20 years old, with children and basically homeless is probably going to have a very depleted self-esteem and be impressionable (value the judgment of others over her own). Having someone around her who is disgusted with her (at least, before it's made clear why the judgment is there, thereby opening a door to show how change is possible) is not a good idea.

[edit:] I want to point out that I agree with others who have speculated the church lady might have been venting. Je exploring always looks like end-all assertion to it's introverted counterpart.
 

skylights

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edit: apparently i have been kind of an ass in general today. i'm sorry if this post comes off that way. my intention is just to clarify/help...

holy hell this thread moves.

tl;dr version of this whole post: not believing in your actions can be just as harmful as not acting at all.

proteanmix, i just have felt (just an emotional sense) like one of your main points in every Fe/Fi thread that i have read is to talk about how little or how low-quality empathy Fi thinking has. perhaps that snippet i quoted was not an example of that, but i have felt it elsewhere in your posts in this thread. it's frustrating, because i identify very much with being empathetic - it is a core part of who i am - and i see plenty of empathy coming from what orobas has written here. i also have trouble thinking that you, especially as a mod, were not aware that i deleted that post within seconds of writing it because i realized it was an overreaction and unfair. i don't really retract my comment - i still feel disdain coming from you towards how orobas felt and that was what caused me to react - but i am sorry that i posted it. it was a dumb reference and not meant to misconstrue your point. it should have been a type-and-backspace; alas, i acted in anger and posted. this thread has me heated because of the value judgments being thrown left and right... i can feel anger and frustration from others and it builds inside me until i do dumb things. so, i am sorry for making that comment, but i do sometimes feel that maybe your protectiveness of Fe ends up slipping into disdain for those of us who utilize less of it. in any case, my apologies.

If some expectations were not communicated, then it's simply because the ISTP/INTJ overestimated the good sense/functionality of the family that they were taking in. [...]I mean, since no repayment was being asked for at any point (hence no legal documents were required), why would anyone have drawn up a list dealing with that kind of minutiae? With less ignorant beneficiaries, such a list would have only served to condescend.

good point.

First of all, given the things the "ISTP" supposedly said in the OP, it is an extremely over-dramatic interpretation to say that she was "negating their worth as people." All she did, so far as I can tell, is sneer at some of the ISFP lady's crude behavior behind her back. What is the harm in this, besides being perhaps in poor taste? It's not like the ISFP lady even knows what was said, or that anything was said at all. Second, yes, shelter and physical well-being are MORE important than the ISFP lady's feelings, especially when it's not only her own well-being involved, but that of her children as well. If she thinks otherwise, then she IS just as stupid and irresponsible, and unsuited to parenting, as the ISTP was implying in the OP. Third, why is it necessary, in the first place, for the ISTP lady to respect the ISFP lady in order to give her aid? Why is that an expectation of her giving? One can maintain civil interaction without sharing mutual respect, and respect is something that has to be earned anyway. So why, especially given the description of the ISFP lady's ignorance, should the ISTP lady respect her? What has she done to earn it?

please don't call me or my interpretations dramatic. it's not drama; it's Fi judgment. i think it's great if we're debating and you refute my points... i mean, i'm not going to learn or grow otherwise... but saying that my points are dramatic seems like an attempt to discredit them without really even addressing them.

as to your questions – one of the the problems with helping someone while not respecting them is that your negative attitude will almost invariably seep into everything you do. sometimes my INTP dad, for example, will come to the kitchen table for dinner raging about some frustration or another. he thinks it's good that he has shown up to family dinner, but he is snappy, blunt, bangs things around, and makes it a generally unpleasant experience. similarly, this woman might be trying to help, but invariably her disdain is going to show up in how she treats the family. it's bad because it hurts at a soul-level - though i'm going to go ahead and assume this is a Fi thing.

why should her aid be accompanied by such feelings anyway?

because in an ideal world, all people would care for others at both a behavior level and a heart level. because otherwise, she has some other motive for helping - serving herself, most likely. and that will motivate her actions. will they help? perhaps, but it's living a shallow husk, in some ways. living pretense. what if everything was like that? what if our friendships were like that? what if no one you thought liked you and appreciated you really did?

At least the ISTP lady condescended to treat her with the appearance of respect to her face

we are different, then. i would prefer for someone to be frank with their feelings about me.

i have to give props to orobas, too, for suspending judgment in the situation. to Fi that feels disingenuous, but as i read others' posts i see more and more of how the Fi reactions are one-sided.

You make it sound as if this is some lifestyle disagreement, with the ISTP lady trying to impose her own lifestyle on the equally plausible/functional lifestyle of the ISFP lady. That is most certainly NOT the case.

do you know that? i thought it was assumed that we did not know the extent to which this woman was maltreating her children.

Well it seems like you expect the ISTP lady to be perfectly magnanimous because she's a Christian.

not perfectly magnanimous. i would be frustrated too... if i seem a bit harsh on this, it comes from years of being raised in catholicism. you see a lot of hypocrisy, a lot of people doing things for their own benefit that appear to serve others. it doesn't work to a certain extent because the heart of it is not there. it's a gesture, but a meaningless one. there is little goodwill behind it, just a latent desire that the problem goes away so we don't have to deal with it. it's entirely self-motivated, nothing altruistic. nothing that those people claim they stand for. it's weird: people who preach, who practice, yet who... don't believe.

incidentally flannery o'conner is an awesome writer on this sort of thing.

why don't you step into the gap and up to the plate? [...] If you care about something, there will be fruits of your caring...there will be some sort of output.

i think orobas already mentioned it... but there are so many cases like this in the world and only one of me. why does this woman in particular need or deserve her more than everyone else? i would not feel a moral mandate to help because there are so many people in situations like this or even worse. someone should help her. someone should help everyone. there is so much to deal with...

I think I view things a bit oppositely […] The offerer to me shouldn't be the one who bends to accommodate the accepter of the offer, since it's the offerer who's sacrificing some aspect of their life in the first place -- it's the accepter who should be flexing, and if the 'terms' of the offer are unacceptable to them, then they'll need to find another alternative.

i see your points. i just think you have much more of an awareness than this family does. they probably have no idea they're being so disruptive, or at least don't really know how to change it. FWIW, i feel a similar way about being in someone else's house. i've been told i have decent Fe, but i don't know. i feel like that is general respect. but if the family has little idea they're acting in a disrespectful way... then... how could they know?

How, exactly, do you have the moral high ground here???

in my eyes Oro has the moral high ground because she has turned anonymously to a group of people who are gathered to help one another. she has not named the person she feels upset towards. it seems like a neutral case study. no names, no disclosure, no harm done.

In other words, I don't think that the ISTP intended to come across as devaluing the ISFP as a human being, but only to express her frustration and get sympathy. She may have sounded like she was condemning the person, but that's because we tend to identify the emotions with the ACTION, so what we really mean is that the actions appear uncaring, not that the person does. We don't know what the person is feeling, but the point being made seemed to be that the ISFP is performing poorly in her role as a mother, not that she's a bad person. Fi users tend to identify the emotion with the PERSON, so when we condemn the action as uncaring, it's assumed that we're condemning the person as uncaring, when that's not the case at all. We just want the person to start acting like how we believe that someone who cares should act.

this ^^ is excellent.

That is exactly the kind of behavior Fi users tend to engage in that frustrated me a couple years ago. I later discovered that Fi users tend to espouse ideals, not expecting us to take them as realistic depictions of their behavior. They tend to judge things according to ideals as well, while not really expecting them to be practically achievable. Also, I first assumed that they wanted to be seen as unconditionally moral or loving, when in reality, they merely mean to say that they value such things and strive for them, not that they embody them. It seems like she's talking about behavior, when she's actually judging the (seeming lack of) ideals she believes that the other person holds, based on their words alone. This can be very aggravating, I realize.

accurate. and the opposite can be aggravating, obviously. why bother to act on something you don't believe in? what's the point? who can ever trust you if your actions are not always in line with your beliefs?

I'm reading some Fi comments as "it's better to not help, rather than help while secretly being horrified at this person's neglect" and I'm sure you're not saying that, but it's hard not to hear it from what you're saying.....

it's better to not help than make a show of helping while secretly spreading hateful speech.

edit:
Z Buck McFate said:
Anyone woman who is 20 years old, with children and basically homeless is probably going to have a very depleted self-esteem and be impressionable (value the judgment of others over her own). Having someone around her who is disgusted with her (at least, before it's made clear why the judgment is there, thereby opening a door to show how change is possible) is not a good idea.

EXACTLY
 

proteanmix

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So to address these points more specifically...the ISTP does see these as signs of neglect and poor parenting. I disagree. She is making a lot of noise, but when probed on each count she didnt provide in depth support for her claims-instead she would attack from a different angle...ah very Nish actually. Silly context shifts. Like she was looking for reasons to poke, once i discounted her first point actually.

  • The kids are not potty trained-but they are under three. Many, many kids-including her four grand children were not potty trained until three. This is not neglect.
  • They are sick all the time-having colds and ear infectious has little to do with a dirty face. All the kids and many adults are actually sick this year-including her grandkids and poor ummy who keeps getting sick from my kid. It is just a rough fall/winter to be honest with a lot of crap going around. This is not neglect.
  • She was using church paper plates and not doing dishes. She had a dirty diaper pail and the church smelled.-Once she asked them to address these issues, they were addressed and not repeated. But she keeps bringing the issue back to light even though the problem was solved. This was potentially not thoughtful, but if the issue was addressed-it is over isnt it?
  • They wear diapers all day long and she doesn’t dress them in clothes at all-so the diapers are a requirement if not potty trained. But is it a requirement or neglect to let kids run around in your living area in a diaper without wearing an outfit? To call that neglect would be silly. Tacky, sure, but neglect?
  • Her and her kids were dirty--little kids are dirty, messy creatures. Three little kids are a lot to keep up with. It doesnt surprise me that the kids are not perfectly clean (actually there isnt a bathtub there or a shower-they go to the YMCA to bathe). But is a dirty kid neglect? Again tacky, sure, but neglect?

  • The kids eat everyday. My MIL just didnt like it that the mom gave them milk in a sippy cup or what the mom fed them or that they didnt eat at the same time everyday. Neglect? no...

Its the same story with all of the complaints. Is it ideal parenting? perhaps not, but the complaints are not legitimate according to any external objective measure of "neglect". In her opinion it is neglect-because it isnt what she would do....it doesnt fit her specific ideas of what "good parents" do...In my mind legit complaints are inability to pay bills, feed children, or physical/emotional/sexual abuse of these children. These children are not abused at all and to say so is silly.

Thank you for clarifying. I feel like if people knew some of this earlier maybe you wouldn't feel like you have to defend yourself.

Do you see them once in awhile when you go visit your ex in laws and base everything on what you see for a couple of days while your ISTP MIL has seen it at least for a month or so? You are good mother to your children so you believe this ISFP will be as well, even if she's off to a rough start. If you choose to, what can you do to get the ISFP the support she needs to care for a children? I'm no Pollyanna, she may or she may not get it together. One is no more likely to happen than the other. Prepare for both outcomes.

What determines what we provide to our children as parents? We each give birth and then identify the things that we find most important to bring them as healthy adults. We impart our values and our ideas about the way we think they should live. As we do so, we select what WE value. I value ideals over external displays of politeness or over structured environments, thus in effect I devalue some things that some Fe users would innately value. I love the child enough to impress my values upon them I suppose.

Where is the line drawn? How many "actions" must one fail to do before it becomes "neglect"?

Here's a website that lists possible signs of neglect:

Consider the possibility of neglect when the child...

  • is frequently absent from school
  • begs or steals food or money
  • lacks needed medical or dental care, immunizations or glasses
  • is consistently dirty and has severe body odor
  • lacks sufficient clothing for the weather
  • abuses alcohol or other drugs
  • states that there is no one at home to provide care

Consider the possibility of neglect when the parent or other adult caregiver...

  • appears to be indifferent to the child
  • seems apathetic or depressed
  • behaves irrationally or in a bizarre manner
  • is abusing alcohol or other drugs
  • Physical neglect includes the refusal of seeking necessary health care, child abandonment, inadequate supervision, rejection of a child leading to expulsion from the home and failing to provide for the child's safety as well as his or her physical and emotional needs. The child may rummage for or steal food.
If you are 200 miles away, how are you capable on a regular basis of observing whether or not these signs are present? Once again I ask, why wasn't the couple's family available to help them out? Is there any substance abuse? I feel like there are important details missing from this situation and you don't know either so you're leaping to conclusions and calling your MIL cruel. Your MIL may not know herself. In the end, does this negate the assistance this woman received?

A dirty diaper is seen as a sign of no love? Taking your kid to the store in just a diaper? Unbrushed hair? bottle cavities? Mismatched socks? A crooked haircut? Letting the dog kiss them? Hair that is too long? Clothes that dont make a cute outfit? A dirty face? Not using napkins at dinner time? Dirt in the corner? Drinking milk through the big straw rather than the skinny straw? Not pulling their hand in the air everytime they cough? giving them milk when they have a cold? Letting them drink sprite with a happy meal? Feeding them happy meals? Pants that are too short? Letting kids sing loudly in the cart at the grocery store? Letting them take off their shoes during dinner at a restaurant? Eating french toast and ice cream for dinner? Putting them to bed grimy because they fell asleep on the way home from the playground? Letting them open the door of the freezer and drive thomas through the bag of busted flour, then through it in the air to create "snowclap"? Oh, there was that time he filled the vacuum up with water put of the facet...

Honestly, these sound like criticisms (fairly or unfairly) that have been leveled at you with your own parenting style. You don't like what your MIL critiques because at some point you had the same critiques said to you. You see a lot of similarity between yourself and this ISFP, which puts you in a unique position to mentor her. You can do something about this, in whatever little way you can, if you choose to. You also have the choice not to do anything. But I'm not going to sit here and read you cry the blues about cruelty and hypocrisy and you're not lifting a finger to alleviate the situation.

No, ONE dirty diaper is not a sign of no love. Repeatedly having the children in dirty diapers is. Taking your kid to the store in just a diaper? I think it's cute in the summer, but not in the dead of winter. Unbrushed hair? Everybody runs out of the house a few times a month without brushing their hair. Having dirty and matted hair consistently, yeah I'd wonder. All the rest of the stuff you listed is petty and trivial...who cares about straws, mismatched socks, and Thomas through a bag of flour. The kids are playing. Your conflating possible indicators of real neglect with basic childhood antics. You seem to be ignoring the fact that there may be REAL neglect here and focusing on the fact that the your MIL isn't cotton ball soft to this woman's family.

I know this seems like a silly distinction and I know this ISFP and family needs to improve things, no argument...but how and where do lines get drawn about what actions consititute good parenting? (I am totally cool with firm guidelines on this...I am more hesitant about opinions or what "should" be done and more looking for what needs to be done)

Talk to the ISFP and find out what needs to be done. Even if you're willing to talk to her a couple times a month, just listen if you can't do anything else. She knows her situation better than any of us.

As far as good parenting, that's a slippery argument. Children's basic needs should be tended to, needs related to their food, clothing, hygiene and health. But I also understand what constitutes food, clothing, hygiene, and health are highly political and value driven. One parent may think it's totally OK to feed their 18 month YO a constant supply of Gatorade and another parent may not dream of such a thing. For example, I know with breastfeeding some women believe you shouldn't breastfeed past a certain age while others do so until their kids are four and five. It's a difficult question to answer, but there are very very basic things that let you know something is amiss.
 

xisnotx

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As someone who is looking to develop Fe..and as someone whose Fe is most likely their inferior function..the op doesn't seem to me to be very representative of how inferior Fe manifests in behavior, at least in my experience.

Personally,I find inferior Fe to be way less certain. It won't know how exactly how people are feeling but it will have a vague idea. It will also drive the person to want to know how other people are experiencing their emotions and why they are feeling what they are feeling. It will try to draw conclusions, but, at least in my case, since inferior Fe knows it isn't as good as it could be it will be very open to drawing different conclusions. Ultimately the goal of Fe seems to be to make other people have good feelings. While this obviously comes with judgement "What are they feeling?" "What do they want/need?"..these judgments don't exist just to exist..they exist to achieve it's goal.

Inferior Fe manifests itself in my behavior by trying and not being able to understand other peoples emotions. It makes me very conscious of how others might be affected emotionally by my behavior. At my worst it makes me a people pleaser and a bit paranoid that people are experiencing negative emotions due to me. Perhaps there are other ways in which it can manifest itself..but ime this is what it does to inferior users of it.

The istp in question sounds a lot like an istj I know. He'll make what I think are harsh judgments just like those in the op. I think it's Fi coupled with the whole SJ mindset being expressed. And, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't an Fe user look at the situation in the op and feel bad for the lady? And her kids? It seems to me that Fe would feel bad that people are obviously not being as happy as they could be. It wouldn't seemingly delight in being better, it would work to achieve an equality because Fe is never satisfied unless other people are satisfied. Something to think about..but ultimately you know the person in question better than I ever will.

But op I'm sure if you dig deeper you'll find that her intentions are sincere, regardless of her type. Especially if she is using Fe since it's goal isn't to judge but to produce results. Judging is just part of the whole getting results process. Fe just wants others to be happy.

My 2 cents.
 

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I just think I'd rather someone help me in concrete ways, regardless of how they actually feel about me from moment to moment, than have wonderful, warm feelings toward me and not do anything to help. I'd rather people write a check to charity even if they secretly suspect they might be throwing money away than wait until they felt like their feelings perfectly matched their motivation to act. I'd rather someone put me up in their house but be wary that I might take advantage than not do anything because they might feel like a hypocrite.

It's fine to feel the opposite--but just know that doing good without waiting for perfect charity of heart STILL does a lot of good for a lot of people. There are plenty of people in need of charity that won't really care about the state of mind of the giver. The action will be enough for them. And they will think well of the giver because of that action.
 

Southern Kross

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I haven't read all the posts so my comments may be redundant but this is how this Fi user would react to such a situation (read: no offence intended to ISTPs or Fe-users in general):

Regardless of the ISTPs intentions, I must say there a few things I find more infuriating than conversations such as that (and I do have them regularly with my ISFJ mother). Its just full of my least favourite conversational elements: circular arguments, character assassination, self-righteousness, judgementalism, guilt trips, presumptiveness, playing the martyr and strawman arguments - these offend my Te as much as my Fi. Orobas, I really identify with your thought process and I doubt I would have remained as tactful as you did. It bothers me so much to see people punished over and over for mistakes (many of them probably unintentional) they are attempting to change and overcome them.

In fact, it seems to have rather irritated me just by reading it...

I think I would have actually preferred to hear the ISTP say outright (and here, I will channel my ESTJ sister): "I know its terrible to say but that woman and her children really disgust and irritate me. Yes, they've been through all these terrible troubles but can't she get her sh*t together and feed, clothe and take care of her kids properly. I can't wait till they leave." At least then she's acknowledging that she's being bitchy and unreasonable rather than trying to justify the harsh criticism through BS arguments.
 

Z Buck McFate

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accurate. and the opposite can be aggravating, obviously. why bother to act on something you don't believe in? what's the point? who can ever trust you if your actions are not always in line with your beliefs?

It isn’t that the church woman didn’t believe in helping, it’s that she didn’t understand why the mother wasn’t acting in a way which would normally indicate (to the church woman’s perspective) gratitude, motivation and/or whatever else. The church woman is projecting her own intentions/motivations into the mother according to her own experience and the interpersonal dynamics she’s accustomed to. And really, I think the people who see her behavior as venomous and spiteful are projecting something too (according to your own experience and what it would take to make you personally behave that way):

it's better to not help than make a show of helping while secretly spreading hateful speech.

I don’t actually agree that someone shouldn’t help if they feel a trace of doubt in whether or not they should be helping. That’s really impractical. My only point is- playing devil’s advocate- it’s possible for the ‘help’ to cause more harm. The first part of the paragraph quoted (to which skylight's quote above is a response) states: that it is possible to do harm by 'helping', *if* the church woman wasn't hiding her criticism very well. We all do the best we can with what we know. This applies to the church woman as much as it applies to the mother. The mistake is to see observable behavior and make negative final judgments about what the other person’s motivations/intentions are.

Now, since we’re only going off of a short story, there’s no way for us to possibly know what the church woman’s motivations/intentions are. There’s really no way of knowing- in this particular instance- if the ‘help’ is doing more harm because we don’t know how much has trickled down to the mother. It all depends on the need of the material help being given and the extent of the criticism trickling down. The people who can relate to her see her as just venting, working through what her impressions are aloud. The people who don’t relate to this need are assuming the motivations/intentions are venomous: “spreading hateful speech.” We’re all filling in blanks with our own experience.

Something tells me that if we had access to a more thorough purview of all sides to this event, all the little details would add up in such a way that there would be far more agreement about what would be best. But since it’s vague, we’re filling in blanks and arguing our own purviews which are largely self created at this point. It's like two different extremes are being argued here as if we're all talking about the same thing.

As always, sorry if this doesn’t make sense, I’m having a hard time articulating. It's just that this is something I've seen happen in threads before.
 

Southern Kross

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It isn’t that the church woman didn’t believe in helping, it’s that she didn’t understand why the mother wasn’t acting in a way which would normally indicate (to the church woman’s perspective) gratitude, motivation and/or whatever else. The church woman is projecting her own intentions/motivations into the mother according to her own experience and the interpersonal dynamics she’s accustomed to.
...
I don’t actually agree that someone shouldn’t help if they feel a trace of doubt in whether or not they should be helping. That’s really impractical. My only point is- playing devil’s advocate- it’s possible for the ‘help’ to cause more harm. The first part of the paragraph quoted (to which skylight's quote above is a response) states: that it is possible to do harm by 'helping', *if* the church woman wasn't hiding her criticism very well. We all do the best we can with what we know. This applies to the church woman as much as it applies to the mother. The mistake is to see observable behavior and make negative final judgments about what the other person’s motivations/intentions are.
I agree that she probably did wish to help. There's plenty of times people do tasks they find unpleasant but endure them in order to contribute. Fi-users may do this too if their values tell them it is the right thing to do regardless of how they feel about it.

Slightly OT: This (and what Tallulah said above) makes me think of Maimonides's 8 levels of charity, where different types of charity are ranked by how upright they are.

-Investing in a poor person in a manner that they can become self-sufficient.
-Giving to the poor without knowledge of the recipient and without allowing the recipient to know your identity.
-Giving to the poor with knowledge of the recipient but without allowing the recipient to know your identity (anonymous giving).
-Giving to the poor without knowledge of the recipient but allowing the recipient to know your identity.
-Giving to the poor without or before being asked.
-Giving to the poor after being asked.
-Giving to the poor happily but inadequately.
-Giving to the poor unwillingly.


And really, I think the people who see her behavior as venomous and spiteful are projecting something too (according to your own experience and what it would take to make you personally behave that way):
I'm sure she was just venting but I always find excessive criticism, especially when there is an reasonable explanation for the fault/mistake, to be very judgmental and lacking in the basic empathy needed to see the other side of the situation.

My main issue (and this is probably central to the Fe/Fi divide over how to read her behaviour) is that she isn't indicating that she's merely having trouble with this woman. She's stating that the homeless woman's behaviour is objectively wrong and unjustifiable. Its an assumption that her view (ie. she's lazy and a bad mother) is an absolute truth when it is merely an opinion (based on things that can mostly be explained by miscommunication at that); ie. "The reason I'm annoyed is that she is difficult and backwards" instead of "The reason I'm annoyed is that I find her difficult and backwards". I read the former as spiteful because its not really about her annoyance at all, its an attack on the other woman.

But then as you say, we can't speculate her real intentions. She may not have been effectively conveying what she wished to say. But I still don't blame Orobas for reading her words as I and others here have. :shrug:
 

Tallulah

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Yeah, this is why I think it's probably better for Fi-ers to talk to their Fi friends when upset, and Fe-ers talk to their Fe friends when upset. I can always tell when a friend is just venting and when they're really making a judgment call that could affect other people in a negative way. If someone wants to blow off some steam, I will listen and take it for what it is. I don't need them to tell me it's their opinion--I'll just take it as such. Usually, I'll ask a few questions to see if they really have an accurate picture of the situation, or if I have knowledge of the situation myself, I'll say, "Oh, that's not how I read the situation at all..." and then give them a different perspective. I have an Fe dom friend who tends to want to demonize certain people when she feels upset and powerless, and I have to pull her down from the ceiling, because she just goes into "off with their heads!" mode. I do think there are moments when someone realizes they're being unreasonable, but they are frustrated and need a place to let it out, and don't need anyone to tell them how unreasonable or unkind they're being.

I do sort of think back and wonder now if I've had a bunch of Fi friends think I'm a horrible person when I've vented in their presence. I do know of one instance where that happened--where I was venting about a third party (and really, if I vent around you, it's kind of a compliment, because I consider you a friend), and she told a mutual friend later that I was just so angry, and she didn't know what I expected her to do about it, etc. And I wasn't really angry, just frustrated. And I didn't want her to do anything but listen. I learned very quickly not to vent around her. We never really moved past a superficial friendship--we couldn't seem to accurately read each other.
 

Southern Kross

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Yeah, this is why I think it's probably better for Fi-ers to talk to their Fi friends when upset, and Fe-ers talk to their Fe friends when upset. I can always tell when a friend is just venting and when they're really making a judgment call that could affect other people in a negative way. If someone wants to blow off some steam, I will listen and take it for what it is. I don't need them to tell me it's their opinion--I'll just take it as such. Usually, I'll ask a few questions to see if they really have an accurate picture of the situation, or if I have knowledge of the situation myself, I'll say, "Oh, that's not how I read the situation at all..." and then give them a different perspective. I have an Fe dom friend who tends to want to demonize certain people when she feels upset and powerless, and I have to pull her down from the ceiling, because she just goes into "off with their heads!" mode. I do think there are moments when someone realizes they're being unreasonable, but they are frustrated and need a place to let it out, and don't need anyone to tell them how unreasonable or unkind they're being.

I do sort of think back and wonder now if I've had a bunch of Fi friends think I'm a horrible person when I've vented in their presence. I do know of one instance where that happened--where I was venting about a third party (and really, if I vent around you, it's kind of a compliment, because I consider you a friend), and she told a mutual friend later that I was just so angry, and she didn't know what I expected her to do about it, etc. And I wasn't really angry, just frustrated. And I didn't want her to do anything but listen. I learned very quickly not to vent around her. We never really moved past a superficial friendship--we couldn't seem to accurately read each other.
Yes, I'm guilty of playing the devil's advocate too much when the venting sounds overly harsh to my ears. Its very hard for me to maintain sympathy (and empathy for that matter) for someone if I think they are being cruel.

However, I'm like this with both Fi and Fe users.
 

skylights

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Z Buck McFate said:
And really, I think the people who see her behavior as venomous and spiteful are projecting something too (according to your own experience and what it would take to make you personally behave that way):

i see what you mean. and understand, that myself and other Fi users who have sympathized with the ISFP are relating to the ISFP because we're hearing a biased view of the story (no offense orobas, i just mean biased in the sense that any account is biased). if we were to talk to the ISTP herself, it probably would be different. we might see more of what was going on. all we have right now is the information we've been given.

I don’t actually agree that someone shouldn’t help if they feel a trace of doubt in whether or not they should be helping.

well, me neither, really. i mean, helping is never easy. even giving $2 to a guy on the street kind of sucks because there goes your two dollars. i'm just saying that it's better if her primary motivation is to willingly help. if it's not, maybe she should be helping in a different way, you know? one that's less likely to engender spite.

Tallulah said:
I have an Fe dom friend who tends to want to demonize certain people when she feels upset and powerless, and I have to pull her down from the ceiling, because she just goes into "off with their heads!" mode. I do think there are moments when someone realizes they're being unreasonable, but they are frustrated and need a place to let it out, and don't need anyone to tell them how unreasonable or unkind they're being.

yeah. my best friend is a Fe dom, and our friendship was really essentially started by venting to one another, actually. we thought it was funny... our "complaining club". what i've found that i think was good for both of us, is that we both tend to overdramatize when we vent, and once we're done expressing that, we get down to the nitty gritty of figuring out what to do about the situation. maybe it's that my mom is ESFJ and so i am used to having a Fe dom to bounce things off of, but i actually prefer having a Fe friend to speak with because she offers me a new perspective on things. we get into the Fi/Fe differences sometimes, but it doesn't often turn into the shitshow it becomes so readily on the boards... instead it's like "hey well maybe if you look at it this way" "oh good point". but before that happens, we have this period of time where we're just totally ridiculous and exaggerate and complain. i think it helps clear out the Feeling-charged loads that build. as long as we both know we're doing that... then it's ok. i don't know if this is true for other Fs as well, but i find it interesting.

a thought... it might also be that ISTP thought she had a different relationship with orobas than orobas thought she did. perhaps the ISTP thought she had a safe confidante in orobas, and did not realize that she was speaking to someone who might be looking more neutrally at the situation, instead of immediately giving her the benefit of the doubt. i know that i am a skeptic by nature and, except for with a few very close people, i have a very hard time suspending personal judgment...

Southern Kross said:
Yes, I'm guilty of playing the devil's advocate too much when the venting sounds overly harsh to my ears. Its very hard for me to maintain sympathy (and empathy for that matter) for someone if I think they are being cruel.

However, I'm like this with both Fi and Fe users.

me too.

but anyway, if someone very close to me were to say things like that, my immediate response would probably be to side with them, because i know their values and trust them.


Southern Kross said:
Maimonides' 8 levels of charity

that's interesting.
 

Tallulah

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a thought... it might also be that ISTP thought she had a different relationship with orobas than orobas thought she did. perhaps the ISTP thought she had a safe confidante in orobas, and did not realize that she was speaking to someone who might be looking more neutrally at the situation, instead of immediately giving her the benefit of the doubt. i know that i am a skeptic by nature and, except for with a few very close people, i have a very hard time suspending personal judgment - but if someone very close to me were to say things like that, my immediate response would probably be to side with them, because i know their values and trust them.

This could definitely be the case. When we vent to someone, there's usually an unspoken expectation that the person is "on our side," because we have some estimation of the relationship, and feel close enough to the person that we feel like they know where we're coming from. We don't have to say, "I know I'm being a real bitch right now, but I just have to vent..." because we feel like the other person knows we're not trying to be nasty, knows what kind of person we are. BUT if we feel that way about the person we're venting to, and they don't feel like they know us as well, or are as close to us as we think we are to them, it all goes off the rails. And can be really potentially damaging/embarrassing for the venter, because they wouldn't have opened their mouths if they didn't think the ventee would take it in the spirit in which it was intended. And therefore it becomes kind of obvious you'd misread the nature of the relationship.

I know it would be deeply embarrassing for me to vent to a friend and find out later that they were horrified by what I'd said, and that it possibly changed how they saw me as a person. Especially if they used words like "cruel." Because I know I'm not a cruel person, and it would just indicate that they really, really didn't know me. I don't know if I'd be able to carry on a friendship in that kind of situation. Partly because I know they'd be thinking that about me, and partly because I'd be thinking, well, if you can't handle that, we're probably not going to relate well to each other.
 

sculpting

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This could definitely be the case. When we vent to someone, there's usually an unspoken expectation that the person is "on our side," because we have some estimation of the relationship, and feel close enough to the person that we feel like they know where we're coming from. We don't have to say, "I know I'm being a real bitch right now, but I just have to vent..." because we feel like the other person knows we're not trying to be nasty, knows what kind of person we are. BUT if we feel that way about the person we're venting to, and they don't feel like they know us as well, or are as close to us as we think we are to them, it all goes off the rails. And can be really potentially damaging/embarrassing for the venter, because they wouldn't have opened their mouths if they didn't think the ventee would take it in the spirit in which it was intended. And therefore it becomes kind of obvious you'd misread the nature of the relationship.

I have encountered this with my entp best friend. When she vents it can sound very mean and when I vent she says it sounds whiny and self centered. (We fight like an old married couple about this stuff.) Because I have spent so much time around the ISTP ex husband and ISTP MIL, I actually have a really high tolerance for Ti ranting typically-I know it sounds really mean but I also know it is venting. In this case it left me very torn though, due to the dissonance between the professed goal-helping the person, and the potential effect of the words-which seemed cruel towards the person. The Fe layers also REALLY hit me the wrong way as well. Ti can be heard as Te. But Ti/Fe well, that hits Fi.

Once Fidelia got really upset at me about a post I made. Highlander pointed out "It wasnt what she said but how she said it that seems to have upset you". This ties into Athenian and Cascadeco's points about how the language may being altered during the venting to emphasize certain aspects due to the ISTPs feelings of unfair treatment. It is likely that I dont disagree or fault with her frustration or even her more objective observations of the family, but the way she innately packages and delivers the information liguistically and cognitively puts a spin on the information being conveyed, with the result being my sense of offense. However if this is her native and innate mode of communication it is unfair of me to fault her for that. I cannot expect her to think or respond or speak the way I would-thus her venting becomes exempt form my Fi judgments and she is no longer "cruel" but simply frustrated and trying to cope.

Another insight provided in the thread-you guys really can feel internally one way, yet act externally a very different way towards a person in need. That is weird. Likely this was what was the most offensive aspect for me, not the ranting, but the split between professed goal of kindness towards another combined with harsh judgment of another. But again, if this is how your minds work, if this is how you guys function cognitively, I cant call that a moral failing, just because it isnt what I feel, even if it seems very odd to me.


  • I can learn to re-encode her commentary, seek the message and look past the way the words sound. I suppose we all do this naturally anyways to get along, but is it reasonable to expect that other types will do me and other Fi users the same favor? I note the INFJs try very hard...
  • Also The harshest things I think are typically the things I say (or type). Inside I often care deeply, but dont express this in words. I dont think mean things about people to be honest. (Not because I am jesu-like, but because it hurts me cognitively to be mean to others, thus via negative reinforcement, I dont do it.) Fe users often may behave in a very nice way towards another but seem to feel dislike or perhaps even contempt of the other person. I often note that Fe users will see my initial harsh or blunt statement-then assume there must be a much, much harsher judgment underneath. Is it reasonable to expect that others can learn to only hear what we say and not assume anything past that?

I suppose the question is really-will I always have to be the one to bend? In the real world I expect so.
 

sculpting

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One last thing to note-often I see Fe users say they dont encounter any Fe-Fi issues in real life. Fi users then try and explain that the issues extend into real life.

But note how few Fi judgments I verbalized in the OP. In my head I felt very offended, but I didnt speak up at all. If pushed very, very hard by an Fe user, I dont say anything but instead just walk away and avoid them. Very rarely would I speak up in return-it feels really rude to do so, as they have a right to feel what they feel...

So I do wonder if perhaps these issues do extend into the real world-but the Fi users around you guys just dont say much about it??
 

Randomnity

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I suppose the question is really-will I always have to be the one to bend? In the real world I expect so.
I think if someone is uncomfortable with a situation, it's their responsibility to do something about it - whether that be "bending", asking for change, demanding, avoiding the situation, etc. Most people won't try to change their whole personality and ways of expression because someone else interprets it in a negative way (unless it's a serious problem).

Thanks for explaining more, though. It puts things in more perspective.
 
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