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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

Randomnity

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Also, if this woman is an istj (nothing screams "non-istp" to me fwiw, I see some patterns of myself in there, unfortunately) you might actually be seeing your own "exploratory Fi" in her, rather than "Fe judgment" (Not that Fi is immune from making "judgments", but that's beside the point). Just something to consider. :)
 

Orangey

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The kind of posts I've been seeing most recently seem likely to make the OP feel more confident in their negative opinion of Fe, due to her being condemned for her feelings on this matter. I consider this unfortunate, because she seemed to actually want to understand why the other woman acted the way she did. Many Fi users hold negative opinions of Fe, and never even give us a chance to explain our side of it.

Who cares what her opinion of Fe is? We're not even sure if what we're talking about has anything to do with Fe or Fi.

People are angry with you because they feel that you are devaluing the ISTP's attempt to help, and calling her lacking in compassion, simply because it wasn't done the way you would have done it. They are not understanding that you are actually most annoyed because of your perception that the ISTP was condemning not her actions, but the woman as a human being.

No, I think most people recognized early on that Orobas was confusing the ISTP's condemnation of actions as a condemnation of the person. The problems now stem from the bolded; it is as though, by setting up this artificial interpretation of the ISTP woman's behavior as Fe, and her own as Fi, and then giving long explanations about how Fi is nothing other than unconditional love, she is suggesting that she never would have behaved or thought the way that the ISTP woman in the story did.

This seems like BS for three reasons; (1) we don't know if the behaviors being described fit Fi or Fe, (2) she hasn't experienced being entangled in this family's affairs, and (3) she doesn't know all of the particulars of the situation. How can she be so presumptuous as to know that she would not behave similarly if in the same situation? The only way she could say that with confidence is if she bought into some idea that Fi somehow exalts her (or, if not Fi, then some other quality about herself.)
 

cascadeco

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Also, if this woman is an istj (she doesn't seem non-istp to me fwiw) you might actually be seeing your own "exploratory Fi" in her, rather than "Fe judgment" (Not that Fi is immune from making "judgments", but that's beside the point). Just something to consider. :)

Yeah.. this is a reason I start prickling a bit when it comes to Fe/Fi discussions - as most of the statements this ISTP made are things I could see my ISTJ mother saying.. I mean, my ISTJ mother can be incredibly blunt and more emo-y with regards to how she judges other people, and statements she makes about them. Nothing terribly fine-tuned/diplomatic with her when it comes to her value judgments and how she feels about a given thing/situation. As well, she is MUCH more concerned with 'proper' ways of doing things. Which is why I brought up Si as another player in the mix of at least behavioral niceties and expectations. It's certainly not just Fe.
 

Orangey

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Yeah.. this is a reason I start prickling a bit when it comes to Fe/Fi discussions - as most of the statements this ISTP made are things I could see my ISTJ mother saying.. I mean, my ISTJ mother can be incredibly blunt and more emo-y with regards to how she judges other people, and statements she makes about them. Nothing terribly fine-tuned/diplomatic with her when it comes to her value judgments and how she feels about a given thing/situation. As well, she is MUCH more concerned with 'proper' ways of doing things. Which is why I brought up Si as another player in the mix of at least behavioral niceties and expectations. It's certainly not just Fe.

Agreed.
 

proteanmix

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Proof positive? Did I not include enough caveats in my post? Was I not abstracting the idea enough beyond the specific case?

No, I don't think you were.

So are you saying that you believe that respect is an attitude to be inculcated in oneself, and that that is the ideal version of respect?

I'm saying that basic human decency and respect towards other humans doesn't preclude Fe or Fi. As I understood you, Fe respects based on social standing/status/worth/value vs. Fi respecting you simply because you're another human being. Then you went on to describe why Fi respects others,

...also includes the more neutral "human decency" version of respect, an acknowledgment that others are different, and that even if one doesn't like the other person, there are still boundaries that one doesn't cross.

Your Fe version of respect is paper thin and does come across as superficial, especially the bolded:

The Fe/Ti version appears to align with notions of being credentialed, trustworthy, of having to earn status/position much as one earns money...The Fe/Ti usage equates "respect" with admiration and esteem...The "admiration" version of respect seems to think it's OK to be disrespectful (to whatever socially acceptable degree) to those who haven't earned respect, yet.

Tell me when you compare and contrast those statements how one come across vs. the other?

Or was my use of the common understanding of Jesus' teachings (whether or not one is Christian) too morally loaded for you?

That too. When you compare something to Jesus what do you expect?

I'm not saying either one is ideal, but that they are different qualitative understandings that share the same word. Thank you for phrasing it as a question and leaving open the possibility that I did not mean to offend.

You may not have said it explicitly, but I did interpret that you implicitly felt one was more ideal.

In general, I associate Fi with "inculcating attitudes." That the attitudes are relatively constant and tend not to change based on external circumstances. The Jesus' love example was in that vein: the attitude is within oneself, and not dependent on the external object of the love.

How are you figuring that the ISTP isn't feeling this or doing this?

Fe is more reactive and adaptive to the external circumstances. This does not imply that it is "superficial." Rather, its expression is necessarily (and deliberately) variable. As my INFJ Mom put it to me,"<Uumlau>, I will always love you, but sometimes I really don't like you." The external circumstances bring in conditions that are invisible to Fi, and the "inculcated attitude" has implications that are invisible to Fe.

Firstly, you didn't say this at first and this is way more neutrally worded. Secondly, because one Fi user doesn't see external circumstances, doesn't mean they're invisible to Fi and nor does it mean Fe is blind to the inculcated attitude. I'm around a lot of SFPs and they don't act like this, so maybe this is an NFP thing. Even look at O's example about her friend's mother being mugged...what options did she really have? Was she going to not going to give the person mugging her (I assume they had a weapon) what they wanted? How was that even Fi? The external circumstances were that she was being mugged, not that it was some twisted Fi Moment of Kindness.

Is due diligence outside the purview of Fi? That's what I'm understanding, but once again please correct me if I'm wrong.

On top of this, and has been stated repeatedly in this thread O's came in bad-mouthed and talked about the ISTP woman "behind her back" the same way the ISTP talked about the ISFP "behind her back." Why won't either one of you address the similarities of the situation?

Do you really NEVER say anything unflattering about someone when they're not around. It absolutely never happens? Never said anything about a boss or coworker? An ex? A friend? A family member? A politician? A bill collector? Even though you care about the person they never do anything that frustrates or annoys you enough to say something unflattering when they're not around? I think it's called "blowing off steam" and it seems common enough to have a colloquial expression attached to it.

If you haven't I'd like to know your secret. I don't think what she said was disrespectful, I think she was venting.
 

Athenian200

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Who cares what her opinion of Fe is? We're not even sure if what we're talking about has anything to do with Fe or Fi.

I do, for one. I care about what other people think of me, and what they think of other FJs. The point is that she BELIEVES that it does. Type cannot be determined in any objective way. So, if we're not willing to work starting from her assumptions, we can't even have a civil or productive discussion. So, I presented my view of what the situation would have meant IF the person were an Fe user, she were an Fi user, and the misunderstanding was a result of conflict there.

Besides, her misunderstandings in this situation seem to fit my own experiences with Fi users misunderstanding me. It doesn't seem far-fetched to me that this could in fact be an Fi/Fe conflict.
No, I think most people recognized early on that Orobas was confusing the ISTP's condemnation of actions as a condemnation of the person. The problems now stem from the bolded; it is as though, by setting up this artificial interpretation of the ISTP woman's behavior as Fe, and her own as Fi, and then giving long explanations about how Fi is nothing other than unconditional love, she is suggesting that she never would have behaved or thought the way that the ISTP woman in the story did.

That is exactly the kind of behavior Fi users tend to engage in that frustrated me a couple years ago. I later discovered that Fi users tend to espouse ideals, not expecting us to take them as realistic depictions of their behavior. They tend to judge things according to ideals as well, while not really expecting them to be practically achievable. Also, I first assumed that they wanted to be seen as unconditionally moral or loving, when in reality, they merely mean to say that they value such things and strive for them, not that they embody them. It seems like she's talking about behavior, when she's actually judging the (seeming lack of) ideals she believes that the other person holds, based on their words alone. This can be very aggravating, I realize.
This seems like BS for three reasons; (1) we don't know if the behaviors being described fit Fi or Fe,

I believe I addressed that above.

(2) she hasn't experienced being entangled in this family's affairs,

Again, that's something you have to learn about Fi... Fi users are dismissive of experience or the effect of the external environment. It appears quite arrogant, but it's not intended that way. She's mostly judging something that has nothing to do with the families affairs. She's judging whether it's right to condemn a person for their behavior, if they didn't realize it was wrong. That's the only thing she's considering, no external information would be considered even if it were available.
and (3) she doesn't know all of the particulars of the situation. How can she be so presumptuous as to know that she would not behave similarly if in the same situation? The only way she could say that with confidence is if she bought into some idea that Fi somehow exalts her (or, if not Fi, then some other quality about herself.)

She isn't trying to exalt herself, she's expressing her ideals of what's "right." She doesn't actually expect herself or other people to live up to those ideals. Fi ideals seem weird to us, because there is no expectation of actually living up to them, they're just there... and the person judges things according to them... and this doesn't always result in action. It's like a contemplated moral ideal. But it isn't meant to serve the same purpose as Fe, it's meant to back up other functions like Ne and Se.
 

sculpting

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But she didn't say those things to the ISFP, she said them to you. Therefore she did not intend to hurt the ISFP, she intended to vent to you.

It hurts because in some sense I forsee the pain that the comment would have had upon the ISFP. It would have hurt her very much. When I forsee that pain-I FEEL that pain. I carry that angst and sadness myself for an event that never actually happened. The potential of the event is enough to make me cringe and hurt for her. I very much realize this will seem strange-but it is how Fi works for me and perhaps others-I cannot say. It makes it VERY hard for me to say mean things about others, although it is easy to comment upon their actions in a more objective sense.

Fi connects me to others. (granted it is a cute psychological mirror trick that forces empathy, even when not in my own best interest, but it is still my reality and what defines right from wrong.)

Orobas, will you start getting more involved with this woman who is obviously in need? Do you think deeper involvement will change your perspective about this situation?

So, combining with my response to Orangey above...From a distance I start with no assumptions of ill intent or cheating and assume the other party will honor their word. I assume best intent and feel empathy and connection to them as a felow human and assuem they are undergoing hard times. Thus it isnt okay to disrespect this person or be mean. Basic trust and respect is given automatically. Based upon evidence I may change my judgment. I may find that even when approached in a positive way, the family fails to respond. At that point I would reduce my support in stages with explicit warnings and boundaries defined. Eventually, like my sister, I would establish distance.

Unfortunately in this case, everything was confused from the start and communication muddied.

This just seems like an elaborate way to backtrack and easily disavow the things that you say. And as folks have been trying to tell you, any "pieces [you are] missing" are pieces of information about the situation, not information about Fi or Fe.


Fi is nonlinear, thus it will not be logically consistent, especially from moment to moment. Sure it is all over the place but I dont judge myself on logical consistency, so it isnt a big deal.

Emm, no when I say pieces, I mean an understanding of the mind of another person-the mom-in-law that allows me to reframe and understand why she is acting in a way that I initially judge as cruel. If placing that in the frame of Fe-Fi (or Ti-Fi or 34yo vs 55yo or alien vs predator) allows a better understanding, then I will explore those avenues until I find a solution. The base Fi assumption is "People typically have the best intent". She was Fi judged as "cruel" yet "she likely had the best intent" are not consistent values-illogical to Fi I suppose. You cant have the best intent and be "cruel". So I have to place myself in her shoes to try and understand what she sees/feels that makes her actions "not cruel".

Fi-sorta like Ti but all fucked up and emo. :)
 

proteanmix

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It hurts because in some sense I forsee the pain that the comment would have had upon the ISFP. It would have hurt her very much. When I forsee that pain-I FEEL that pain. I carry that angst and sadness myself for an event that never actually happened. The potential of the event is enough to make me cringe and hurt for her. I very much realize this will seem strange-but it is how Fi works for me and perhaps others-I cannot say. It makes it VERY hard for me to say mean things about others, although it is easy to comment upon their actions in a more objective sense.

Fi connects me to others. (granted it is a cute psychological mirror trick that forces empathy, even when not in my own best interest, but it is still my reality and what defines right from wrong.)

OK, what is your next step after this? Is there a next step or is this enough for you, to feel this and nothing more needs to happen? I'm asking this seriously because I'm not understanding.

I feel this, and then feel compelled to move. It is not enough for me to just feel this...this moves me to action. It fuels me into DOING SOMETHING. I don't stop at this point. Maybe this is a difference between Fe and Fi because if I feel this strongly about something I have to do something. I feel disturbed and rattled internally if I don't move.

Also, why didn't you feel this with the ISTP? You felt the ISFP's "pain" but did you not feel the ISTP's frustration? How did you rank who's emotions were more insistent and valid? Why did you automatically empathize with the ISFP but not the ISTP?

So, combining with my response to Orangey above...From a distance I start with no assumptions of ill intent or cheating and assume the other party will honor their word. I assume best intent and feel empathy and connection to them as a felow human and assuem they are undergoing hard times. Thus it isnt okay to disrespect this person or be mean. Basic trust and respect is given automatically. Based upon evidence I may change my judgment. I may find that even when approached in a positive way, the family fails to respond. At that point I would reduce my support in stages with explicit warnings and boundaries defined. Eventually, like my sister, I would establish distance.

So could it be possible that the ISTP/INTJ couple began this way as you describe you would, and as their involvement and knowledge of the situation increased, their evaluation and feelings towards this woman and her family changed and what you experienced in that car ride was a manifestation of the change in attitude? Not any condemnation of the ISFP as a human, not hypocrisy, not undue and harsh criticism, just the natural flow that occurs once you gain more knowledge and insight into a situation? That she asked them to leave as a way of distance? That she wasn't quite sure of what she was getting into when she offered assistance in the first place?

This is what I'm getting at and what several people have been saying all along.
 

sculpting

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No, I think most people recognized early on that Orobas was confusing the ISTP's condemnation of actions as a condemnation of the person. The problems now stem from the bolded; it is as though, by setting up this artificial interpretation of the ISTP woman's behavior as Fe, and her own as Fi, and then giving long explanations about how Fi is nothing other than unconditional love, she is suggesting that she never would have behaved or thought the way that the ISTP woman in the story did.

Um, I would never have said mean things like my mom in law did? hehe. Actually i would do my best not to say mean things, but of course, when I have been very hurt I have said horrible, horrible things and be very terrible and evil to others. The are some of the worst things I have ever done. In retrospect I carry those moments forever branded upon me as lessons of how I have to learn to control my emotions and my actions as to not hurt others around me..

Mom in law WAS attacking the person-she just didnt understand she was. She didnt understand the effect it has on me, and she doesnt understand how much it may hurt the women as well. When an Fe judgment is passed upon an Fi user...it IS attacking the person, because Fi is our essence. However I can take Te nudges or even Ti pointed barbs all day long...they hit Te.

Yeah.. this is a reason I start prickling a bit when it comes to Fe/Fi discussions - as most of the statements this ISTP made are things I could see my ISTJ mother saying.. I mean, my ISTJ mother can be incredibly blunt and more emo-y with regards to how she judges other people, and statements she makes about them. Nothing terribly fine-tuned/diplomatic with her when it comes to her value judgments and how she feels about a given thing/situation. As well, she is MUCH more concerned with 'proper' ways of doing things. Which is why I brought up Si as another player in the mix of at least behavioral niceties and expectations. It's certainly not just Fe.

I suppose since Fid picked up on the Fe-isms straight away I just assumed they made sense. But you are very correct in the S component-Se I suspect. As an older ISTP she is interesting as she was exceptionally practical, pragmatic and tough when younger but now all the Fe like things she notes have a very heavy S to them. They involve physical things about clothes, hair, the house, eating and drinking of certain foods, but in a neurotic way that is really hysterical when it isnt pointed at you. Hehehe, when my inf Si kicks in I roam around scrubbing baseboards with toothbrushes , so I wouldnt expect inf Fe to besmooth ly displayed. However she is really disorganized in other aspects of life and late to most everythingand cant plan logistically for anything and doesnt have an once of Fi in her bones. . I do love her a lot though
 

uumlau

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No, I don't think you were.
Fair enough.

FWIW, I think the ISTP was simply venting. That wasn't the topic of my post, hence you drew conclusions as if I were responding directly to the OP, rather than opining about "respect."

I'm saying that basic human decency and respect towards other humans doesn't preclude Fe or Fi.
Agreed.

Tell me when you compare and contrast those statements how one come across vs. the other?
What do you believe is the difference between "respect" and "disrespect"? People draw the line in different places. The admiration version of respect isn't superficial, but you seem to feel that it is. It's the "neutral" version of respect that gets confusing, regarded as either positive or negative depending on one's context, c.f., the "socially acceptable" caveat I included.


That too. When you compare something to Jesus what do you expect?
Kind of like Godwin's Law, eh?

You may not have said it explicitly, but I did interpret that you implicitly felt one was more ideal.
I have a feeling that both Ti and Fi are more "idealistic" than their extroverted counterparts. This is a trait, not a virtue. Te and Fe are more "realistic", and similarly this is a trait, not a virtue.

How are you figuring that the ISTP isn't feeling this or doing this?

She was engaging in gossip and venting, and just needed someone to listen. The problem is how to interpret the actions. I usually feel uncomfortable when others speak about third parties this way.


Is due diligence outside the purview of Fi? That's what I'm understanding, but once again please correct me if I'm wrong.
Fi sees different things to be diligent about.

On top of this, and has been stated repeatedly in this thread O's came in bad-mouthed and talked about the ISTP woman "behind her back" the same way the ISTP talked about the ISFP "behind her back." Why won't either one of you address the similarities of the situation?
O was asking our opinion on how to deal with and interpret the situation. The "ISTP woman" wasn't asking O's opinion.


Do you really NEVER say anything unflattering about someone when they're not around. It absolutely never happens? Never said anything about a boss or coworker? An ex? A friend? A family member? A politician? A bill collector? Even though you care about the person they never do anything that frustrates or annoys you enough to say something unflattering when they're not around? I think it's called "blowing off steam" and it seems common enough to have a colloquial expression attached to it.

If you haven't I'd like to know your secret. I don't think what she said was disrespectful, I think she was venting.

Not never, but very rarely. When I do so, I try to do so in a very careful manner, because how I approach the topic says more about me than it does about the person of whom I am speaking.

Yes, she was venting, but she was also, to a degree, disrespectful.
 

PeaceBaby

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Well, this thread has gone exactly where I would have predicted ... who says you need Ni to see the future? :laugh:


I feel this, and then feel compelled to move. It is not enough for me to just feel this...this moves me to action. It fuels me into DOING SOMETHING. I don't stop at this point. Maybe this is a difference between Fe and Fi because if I feel this strongly about something I have to do something. I feel disturbed and rattled internally if I don't move.

Since I am an Fi user who is driven to help, to do real stuff in the real world, I'll add a little bit. I have logged probably thousands of hours of community service at this point in my life. The problem for me is that Fi out is a huge energy drain. I can totally get why some Fi users retreat from trying to do as much as their heart asks of them. Personally, I have burnt myself out in the past, and still have trouble with maintaining the right energy balance. Fi drives you to try to help everyone according to your ideals or you feel like you have failed. If you care about one, you should care about all. You'll say that's not logical, but it's logical.

Also, why didn't you feel this with the ISTP? You felt the ISFP's "pain" but did you not feel the ISTP's frustration? How did you rank who's emotions were more insistent and valid? Why did you automatically empathize with the ISFP but not the ISTP?

I feel both sides here ... yet it's more natural for Fi to side with the underdog, no? The ISFP is at a deficit in many ways - knowledge, finances, lack of parenting experience, stability, to name a few. The ISTP is in the power position, and offers help yet seems to be using it to judge the people instead of their actions - and their actions are what need assistance. I think it would be a great idea to engage the ISTP in some dialogue focussing on compassion; it would be a long-term proposition though meant to expand the definitions of it for herself too. She sounds like a person who is pretty hard on herself. At least short-term, in a convo like this, I think O should share a little of how what's being said appears to her, without causing any unnecessary rift between herself and the in-laws.

I'll pull this quote out earlier from skylights:

skylights said:
Fi is about internal consistency; this woman's speech and behavior are not consistent. she may be generous but she does not seem to believe behind closed doors what she demonstrates outwardly through behavior. her goodwill thus seems disingenuous. so Fi looks for other motives for the behavior: perhaps she is doing this because it makes her feel superior, which would seem to be more in line with the things she says, etc....

It's not just what you do, to Fi it's about what you say and what you feel inside about it too. This consistency ... is vital. If you're going to be generous, be generous through and through, not begrudge the people you are helping behind their backs. Not hitch your assistance to a whole wagon of unspoken, assumed conditions, where you choose to "pull the pin" if the people being helped don't "give back" the way you expect they should. I'm not saying you can just "give give give" ... the context of helping should be placed up front and center. For this church example, if they had told the family, "We will allow you to live with us for 8 weeks while you save enough to get your own place again, and will help you get set up with a young mom's group for support and learning, and teach you to what standards we expect the place to be kept up to while you are here. Do you agree to this?" THEN there's a time to hold people to standards ... I am not sure this happened in this situation?

Complaining about this feels more condemnatory than just "blowing off steam" ... it feels like writing people off as losers, failures, which feels wrong to do. Does that help explain it?
 

sculpting

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OK, what is your next step after this? Is there a next step or is this enough for you, to feel this and nothing more needs to happen? I'm asking this seriously because I'm not understanding.

I feel this, and then feel compelled to move. It is not enough for me to just feel this...this moves me to action. It fuels me into DOING SOMETHING. I don't stop at this point. Maybe this is a difference between Fe and Fi because if I feel this strongly about something I have to do something. I feel disturbed and rattled internally if I don't move.

Also, why didn't you feel this with the ISTP? You felt the ISFP's "pain" but did you not feel the ISTP's frustration? How did you rank who's emotions were more insistent and valid? Why did you automatically empathize with the ISFP but not the ISTP?

Pain>frustration always until the circumstances are fully understood. My apologies, it is just the way it is-for me, not sure about others. I actually felt frustrated for the ISTP as well. However then I started doing the thing that drives ENTPs fucking bonkers. Instead of seeking more clarification, I started providing solutions. You should do this, you should try that. Yeah, not the best approach when she was venting, so I changed tactics in mind stream and then started asking her questions to try and change her perspective.

Next steps? Hmm.. emotions are not a call to action always. I dont feel compelled to jump up and do anything. I feel compelled to do internal value housekeeping actually and sort out what went right and wrong and why. What do i need to change, what did I feel that was okay to feel, why was I so upset by this. These reworking of values will form a better defined Fi ruleset to apply in the future. Better educated, more understanding, more appropriate to apply in the real world. A more fair and reasonable ruleset.

Sometimes emotions/strong values do prompt action. However with a shitty Fi ruleset, if I take action it may be innappropriate, thus the above remolding is required when I deal with a situation that leaves me in an emotionally conflicted state. This is where talking with others helps as the other perspectives can shed light on my misunderstandings. Typically what will prompt an immediate response of action is a violation of a very core Fi value-freedom of speech, hurting others, others being treated unfairly sometimes. More often though my long term Te goals are motivated by underlying Fi motives...but it can look really Te on the surface.

In this case...well I was just going to walk away, but an interesting comment I once saw about tert Fi in an INTJ. It doesnt like to get it's hands dirty and at some point will just walk away...if I walk away I am kind of doing the same thing. Internally idealistic, but not willing to get dirty in the trenches. That is a very fair appraisal and a valid critique from the Fe side.

So could it be possible that the ISTP/INTJ couple began this way as you describe you would, and as their involvement and knowledge of the situation increased, their evaluation and feelings towards this woman and her family changed and what you experienced in that car ride was a manifestation of the change in attitude? Not any condemnation of the ISFP as a human, not hypocrisy, not undue and harsh criticism, just the natural flow that occurs once you gain more knowledge and insight into a situation? That she asked them to leave as a way of distance? That she wasn't quite sure of what she was getting into when she offered assistance in the first place?

This is what I'm getting at and what several people have been saying all along.

I suspect...

  • They didnt know what they were getting into.
  • They had not planned or bounded the situation properly.
  • They did not understand the impact this would have upon them and didnt understand the emotional endurance required for a long term project like this
I also suspect..
  • The ISTP was not a willing party in this from the start.
  • Once involved, she tried to help, but her inf Fe can be SO very hard to deal with as it gets fixated on really weird trivial details but misses important stuff. To an FP, even me, she never stops nagging, little endless comments all the time, about everything. (i love her/she drives me a bit nuts)
  • She was likely more polite to the family, but they are such a mess, that the commentary was there from the start and the mom could see through her politeness and felt judged.
  • The ISTP likely tried to be really "nice" thus wasnt very direct in instructions or boundaries.
  • The ISTP also assumed certain things would be "obvious", not getting how uneducated these folks are, thus becoming more frustrated.
  • That the ISFP mom became quickly sullen, withdrawn and defensive (passive agressive) and after about a month started ignoring her outright and stopped attending services after about six weeks.
  • This intensified the feeling of being ignored by the ISFP and left the ISTP feeling unappreciated and even more critical of the ISFP, even though the ISFP was completing many of the requested tasks.

At this point it is personal towards the ISFP from the ISTP. She never comments on dad or family, but on mom, over and over again, and with every redirection or suggestion, she reroutes into another complaint about mom. This is an Ne observation...a repeating pattern of harsh critique towards one person. It triggers a red alarm for me, because I know the ISTP so well, and I know how annoying she can be when on a roll, so I expect it isnt simply a buildup of complaints but increasing hostility that she doesnt seem to be "heard" by the ISFP. I actually feel sympathy that she feels unheard and frustrated by the other person...but the commentary was very harsh.

INTJ DIL actually just said the dad was a bit defensive about financial advice, but otherwise he had no negative comment. He called them kids and said they needed to grow up.

Fidelia's initial observations were very good-boundaries and clear expectations as well as experience would have resolved many of the issues here that may be routed in communication and different value systems.
 

sculpting

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I have to get back to work before I get fired, but I wanted to say thank you very much to protean, orngey, random, cascadco, and especially athenian whose comments are really thought provoking but I havent had time to address yet. I know threads like this can be edgy and angstful and I apologize for the discomfort caused, but what can be of such value is hearing alternative views and realize how each person sees the world so differently.

By forcing me to hear your views or challenging my assumptions, growth occurs, so i am grateful to hear thoughts, even if they are very different from mine. I much appreciate the time you guys take to contribute and the thoughtful manner in which you do so.
 

proteanmix

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Since I am an Fi user who is driven to help, to do real stuff in the real world, I'll add a little bit. I have logged probably thousands of hours of community service at this point in my life. The problem for me is that Fi out is a huge energy drain. I can totally get why some Fi users retreat from trying to do as much as their heart asks of them. Personally, I have burnt myself out in the past, and still have trouble with maintaining the right energy balance. Fi drives you to try to help everyone according to your ideals or you feel like you have failed. If you care about one, you should care about all. You'll say that's not logical, but it's logical.

Actually, I didn't think to categorize it as logical/illogical. I know what burnout feels like, I've felt it and I pull back. When I recouperate I go back out again. If I feel driven to help a period of exhaustion is just that, a period, and I'm right back out there again when I feel refreshed.

BTW, I don't want to make this about who logs in the most community service hours, just to clarify. Whatever your chosen outlet is, then fine.

I feel both sides here ... yet it's more natural for Fi to side with the underdog, no? The ISFP is at a deficit in many ways - knowledge, finances, lack of parenting experience, stability, to name a few. The ISTP is in the power position, and offers help yet seems to be using it to judge the people instead of their actions - and their actions are what need assistance.

I mentioned this several times already: what does it mean to get in the dirt with someone? The ISFP is deficient, she needs help. No one questions that. Who's going to get in the weeds with her to help her through? The only person thus far who has done this is the ISTP. Not Orobas. Orobas is outraged and Fi-offended but she has not done anything that would give her deeper insight into the situation. When you get in the mud, what do you expect to happen when you start seeing the situation as a soldier on the ground not as a fly on the wall? Your perspective changes, things get unclear, the situation gets more complex. You see that the reason why the person may not have keep the dr's appt was because she was out late the night before and didn't wake up in time (this is hypothetical NOT that Orobas said this). You may see that the person takes the money they're given to care for the children and spends it on alcohol, clothes, and other nonsense. You see that the person's attention isn't going towards the kids because they're too busy trying to keep their romantic life in tact and the expense of the kids. Look at what Orobas said the ISTP complained about:

  • She also hasn’t toilet trained any of them,
  • The kids are sick all of the time because she is filthy and her children are filthy.
  • They wear diapers all day long and she doesn’t dress them in clothes at all or even bother to clean.
  • She was using the paper plates and napkins in the kitchen and left dirty dishes in the sink.
  • The diaper bin was full and the whole church smelled bad.

Are those valid reasons to be upset and frustrated?

Once you start seeing the details of the situation, who's the underdog? Does the person who appeared to be the underdog still look that way? We all believe the person is doing the best they can and trying to do their best. But at the same time you understand how they contribute to their own miserable situation. Even though they are trying to do better it can frustrate you as the person watching this and trying to help as much as they want and allow you to and still see them struggling. Why is it the person struggling can make the mistakes, but the person offering the help has to walk the straight and narrow? I'm beginning to believe people need to hit rock bottom in situations like this so they can start climbing out themselves. Unfortunately them hitting rock bottom means the kids will also hit rock bottom.

I address that discrepancy, that is what unsettles me as a Fe user. That is inconsistent, that is where actions, behaviors, words, and feelings misalign. To me that is the travesty of the situation. You say you love your kids, you hug them and kiss them, but you won't even change their dirty diapers? How is that consistent? How is that caring and loving?

For this church example, if they had told the family, "We will allow you to live with us for 8 weeks while you save enough to get your own place again, and will help you get set up with a young mom's group for support and learning, and teach you to what standards we expect the place to be kept up to while you are here. Do you agree to this?" THEN there's a time to hold people to standards ... I am not sure this happened in this situation?

I don't think this happened either from what has been explained, but is this a Fe failure or a communication failure? I think Orangey already addressed this...the couple may not have worked out all the minutiae of what living in the church meant. As I stated earlier, no one needs to explain to me that if I'm living on the good grace of another I need to clean up after myself, I need to empty trash and wash the dishes I dirty. Unless I'm paying rent, I give up a few freedoms in the name of having a roof over my head based on the generosity of someone else.

This more than likely frustrated the ISTP because to her (and me) it seems obvious to do these things. On top of that, the ISFP didn't regularly feed, bathe or clean the children and then seemed to be puzzled why they are sickly. This is neglect, plain and simple.

And once again, who's to say that the ISTP (who is her MIL and priobably felt comfortable enough with O to say what she said) didn't explain this to the ISFP and her family? You'd be surprised when you think you're clearly communicating with someone and they have not a clue of what you said. I would be insulted if someone told me, wipe the toilet after you're done, clean your dishes from the sink, don't leave stinky diapers in the trash if I were staying with them. Those are things I know to do! Is that really Fe?

Complaining about this feels more condemnatory than just "blowing off steam" ... it feels like writing people off as losers, failures, which feels wrong to do. Does that help explain it?

I suppose.
 

Randomnity

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yet it's more natural for Fi to side with the underdog, no? The ISFP is at a deficit in many ways - knowledge, finances, lack of parenting experience, stability, to name a few. The ISTP is in the power position, and offers help yet seems to be using it to judge the people instead of their actions - and their actions are what need assistance.
I actually see the kids here as the underdog. The mom is in a power position over them. :shrug:

I also tend to not see people as "underdogs" when they're abusing/neglecting their kids, but maybe that's a Fe thing. (heh). I like protean's explanation.

I'm reading some Fi comments as "it's better to not help, rather than help while secretly being horrified at this person's neglect" and I'm sure you're not saying that, but it's hard not to hear it from what you're saying.....
 

PeaceBaby

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Actually, I didn't think to categorize it as logical/illogical. I know what burnout feels like, I've felt it and I pull back. When I recouperate I go back out again. If I feel driven to help a period of exhaustion is just that, a period, and I'm right back out there again when I feel refreshed.

That's good. What I meant is logical/illogical was the following. "If you care about one, you should care about all." Not the burnout.

I agree, anyone can experience burnout. For me, extroverting the Fi, which is the impetus to help, is really draining, it doesn't recharge me. Just have to be careful.

BTW, I don't want to make this about who logs in the most community service hours, just to clarify. Whatever your chosen outlet is, then fine.

I thought you implicated above that Fi users didn't get their hands dirty. Wanted to counter that, not trying to boast, just laying it out plain.

I mentioned this several times already: what does it mean to get in the dirt with someone? The ISFP is deficient, she needs help. No one questions that. Who's going to get in the weeds with her to help her through? The only person thus far who has done this is the ISTP. Not Orobas.

Well, O said she lives 200 miles away; in all fairness, it seems only now is she pulled enough into the story to start contemplating how she could (or should) help. Don't you think? Or at least offer that as the benefit of the doubt?

Orobas is outraged and Fi-offended but she has not done anything that would give her deeper insight into the situation.

She made this post not to stand in judgement of Fe, but to understand better why her ISTP MIL was venting and saying the kind of things she said, which really seem to contradict her actions. Am I missing something there?

When you get in the mud, what do you expect to happen when you start seeing the situation as a soldier on the ground not as a fly on the wall? Your perspective changes, things get unclear, the situation gets more complex. You see that the reason why the person may not have keep the dr's appt was because she was out late the night before and didn't wake up in time (this is hypothetical NOT that Orobas said this). You may see that the person takes the money they're given to care for the children and spends it on alcohol, clothes, and other nonsense. You see that the person's attention isn't going towards the kids because they're too busy trying to keep their romantic life in tact and the expense of the kids.

I totally get this and agree - for example, I used to volunteer with teen moms, one of whom had a drug-dealer boyfriend who she would try to break off with, but then he would feed her needs, and not just for her habit, for a new TV, for a hookup ... things are messy, messy indeed. It takes a lot to get involved in these situations, and there are often no easy answers or solutions. I think that's part of the problem, when you first start volunteering, it seems like if you just offer all the information and be a good role model, it should be enough. But there's this special key inside of people, this inner place of motivation, that only that person controls. And most people give all that power away, for all the broken reasons people do. Difficult.

Look at what Orobas said the ISTP complained about:

  • She also hasn’t toilet trained any of them,
  • The kids are sick all of the time because she is filthy and her children are filthy.
  • They wear diapers all day long and she doesn’t dress them in clothes at all or even bother to clean.
  • She was using the paper plates and napkins in the kitchen and left dirty dishes in the sink.
  • The diaper bin was full and the whole church smelled bad.

Are those valid reasons to be upset and frustrated?

Oh yes, they absolutely are reasons to be upset. But O was asking ... why would she say those things? Is she exaggerating? I think your answer was to vent and blow off steam. I think what O was saying was that it feels more judgey of the person? Not of the situation. Do you think that the ISTP has a good opinion of the ISFP mom?

Once you start seeing the details of the situation, who's the underdog? Does the person who appeared to be the underdog still look that way?

I think it's important to be very careful here ... people sometimes are helping because they accept the edicts of their church for example, to help others. They are still in the power position because they have made the choice to get involved. They want the person to change according to their preconceived notions of what they need in order to improve their lives. It can be very subjective, and the person helping is still more in the position to step away or withhold. Yes, of course, there are master manipulators among us ... and good people get taken advantage of. The ISTP here could be a victim of trying to uphold a morality that they don't feel in their heart, but that still does not make them the underdog here.

I might not have had control in all of my volunteer matches, couldn't help encourage all of these girls to make changes that I thought would be beneficial for them and their babies, but I made that choice to get involved, which meant I had the power to step away.

We all believe the person is doing the best they can and trying to do their best. But at the same time you understand how they contribute to their own miserable situation. Even though they are trying to do better it can frustrate you as the person watching this and trying to help as much as they want and allow you to and still see them struggling. Why is it the person struggling can make the mistakes, but the person offering the help has to walk the straight and narrow? I'm beginning to believe people need to hit rock bottom in situations like this so they can start climbing out themselves. Unfortunately them hitting rock bottom means the kids will also hit rock bottom.

Totally agree. Very difficult.

I address that discrepancy, that is what unsettles me as a Fe user. That is inconsistent, that is where actions, behaviors, words, and feelings misalign. To me that is the travesty of the situation. You say you love your kids, you hug them and kiss them, but you won't even change their dirty diapers? How is that consistent? How is that caring and loving?

This is wonderful. Really. You've connected dots that not everyone connects. I know it seems ridiculous ... unbelievable! Yet, people struggle with real world responsibilities, real world obligations, ones that push them to their limits of maturity in their ability to place the needs of others in front of their own. Yet, there can still be love. Not caring perhaps, in the way we think of it, but there is still love there ... so what needs to happen is to tap into that love and use it to help mature the mom in a way that educates yet does not judge her. Without good modeling in the first place, already so much against her, but it is possible. Sometimes it's like planting seeds ... you really don't see the fruit of them until much farther in the season. Again, it comes to that inner key, that place where people make change not because they are obligated to, but because they are transformed to.

I don't think this happened either from what has been explained, but is this a Fe failure or a communication failure? I think Orangey already addressed this...the couple may not have worked out all the minutiae of what living in the church meant. As I stated earlier, no one needs to explain to me that if I'm living on the good grace of another I need to clean up after myself, I need to empty trash and wash the dishes I dirty. Unless I'm paying rent, I give up a few freedoms in the name of having a roof over my head based on the generosity of someone else.

Total communication failure. Not Fe. Te. Sometimes it's hard to swallow one's pride ... or feel that you are thought less of by these supposedly caring people who speak love with their tongues, yet none is to be felt from their hearts. You would use these acts of service to repay the debt, but not everyone transacts in the same way.

This more than likely frustrated the ISTP because to her (and me) it seems obvious to do these things. On top of that, the ISFP didn't regularly feed, bathe or clean the children and then seemed to be puzzled why they are sickly. This is neglect, plain and simple.

Well, I again think it's careful to remember the ISTP is venting, which I might add I totally get her need for, but perhaps she could be exaggerating to drum up sympathy for her end of the equation. I would want to see with my own eyes before I judged the level of neglect.

And once again, who's to say that the ISTP (who is her MIL and priobably felt comfortable enough with O to say what she said) didn't explain this to the ISFP and her family? You'd be surprised when you think you're clearly communicating with someone and they have not a clue of what you said. I would be insulted if someone told me, wipe the toilet after you're done, clean your dishes from the sink, don't leave stinky diapers in the trash if I were staying with them. Those are things I know to do! Is that really Fe?

It means you were raised to a standard to understand these rules. It's not Fe per se. Not everyone knows this stuff though, or wants to feel beholden to other people's standards, or judged because they lack them.
 

PeaceBaby

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I actually see the kids here as the underdog. The mom is in a power position over them. :shrug:

I also tend to not see people as "underdogs" when they're abusing/neglecting their kids, but maybe that's a Fe thing. (heh). I like protean's explanation.

I'm reading some Fi comments as "it's better to not help, rather than help while secretly being horrified at this person's neglect" and I'm sure you're not saying that, but it's hard not to hear it from what you're saying.....

I don't hear the Fi people saying it's better not to help. And the kids are the victims of circumstance, yes. Rather than just accept the ISTP MIL's account of the situation however, I would want to see it for myself. I wonder, as I already mentioned in my reply to protean, how much exaggeration is found in the venting to justify her upset feelings.

And if you all think ISTP is venting, why is everyone seeming to accept her venting at face value?

My Mom generally speaks in absolutes about stuff like this, until pressed ... "Your brother never changes his socks, it's just disgusting how he comes home and can't even change them." Well, really, he wears them for 4 or 5 days in a row, like any laundry-challenged INTP bachelor. It's not like he never changes them! :laugh:
 

Z Buck McFate

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Yeah, I can definitely see the ISTP lady's perspective, but.... still, it seems like wasn't trying to help the person in any way other than physically. She wasn't telling her what she needed to do, or anything that would have actually helped her in the long run. I can see both sides of this... on one hand, yes, she seems like a parasite. But on the other, nothing was done to discourage that behavior, and encourage her to improve her own situation. "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"? That seems to be the lesson here. They just kept giving her fish, and expected that she would realize that she needed to figure out how to fish. They never came out and told her that she needed to learn how to fish.

If you think it's hypocritical to help someone and be critical of them would it be better for the help not to be given at all?


I do think that people who step up to ‘help’ by giving someone a fish- then criticizing them for not starting to fish on their own directly thereafter- are just being cruel. I think the challenge of gaining the self-confidence and belief in oneself should be considered as much a priority as material help, especially since both parents were raised in foster care (if the stigma about foster care is even remotely true). Without the belief that one is capable of functioning independently in the world, there isn’t much point in putting forth the effort to do so. It’s like expecting a flashlight to work before putting batteries in it. And simply being critical of people who don’t know ‘how to fish’- for not fishing- is only reinforcing negative beliefs about themselves, reinforcing the belief that they aren’t capable. Anyone who ends up homeless is already, on some level, too aware of their incompetence- maybe not on an obvious level, but it's still there. That kind of help can be toxic, and do more harm than good.

With that being said, it isn’t really clear in the op, the extent to which negative judgment expressed actually got back to this woman- either with direct language or having it conveyed with snarky attitude.


So-to copper fish and proteanmix-the point of the post wasnt complete condemnation of the ISTP, even though we have gone back and forth a bit. Remember that often when you see someone externalize Fi, it is not a judgment, but exploratory. So the goal of the post wasnt to say "Fe is evil and the ISTP is SATAN" The goal of letting the values and sense of Fi offense be seen was to explore what pieces I am missing. I feel frsutrated, offended, hurt for the women thus....what am I not understanding?

I know others already tried making this point: Orobas, do you see how this^ could very well be what the church woman was doing with you, too? Just trying to work out her perceptions by saying them outlound to another person? Externalizing Ti in an exploratory way? Out of curiousity, how do you think the church woman would respond to being reminded of the fishing proverb, and pointing out that *maybe* the problem with the ISFP woman isn’t ingratitude so much as truly not grasping things which might seem clear to most people?


If you're going to be generous, be generous through and through, not begrudge the people you are helping behind their backs. Not hitch your assistance to a whole wagon of unspoken, assumed conditions, where you choose to "pull the pin" if the people being helped don't "give back" the way you expect they should. I'm not saying you can just "give give give" ... the context of helping should be placed up front and center. For this church example, if they had told the family, "We will allow you to live with us for 8 weeks while you save enough to get your own place again, and will help you get set up with a young mom's group for support and learning, and teach you to what standards we expect the place to be kept up to while you are here. Do you agree to this?" THEN there's a time to hold people to standards ... I am not sure this happened in this situation?

Complaining about this feels more condemnatory than just "blowing off steam" ... it feels like writing people off as losers, failures, which feels wrong to do. Does that help explain it?

The point made in the above paragraph is a good one, and it seems like the church woman is also being condemned for not already knowing it (just like it seems she is condemning the ISFP for not *magically* picking up on certain ‘rules’). Just like it would be best to reserve harsh judgment on the ISFP until she refused to do things that were made clear to her- wouldn’t it be best to reserve judgment on the church woman until she was given a chance to consider new information?
 

Randomnity

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I think it's fair to accept the ISTP's venting at face value, since we're accepting Orobas' venting about the ISTP at face value (at least i am).

I don't tend to exaggerate much myself, which is not to say this istp isn't - we don't have any way to know really, but I don't think istps tend towards that much, from what I've seen. But then, what does it really matter whether she was exaggerating? Are you just talking about the underdog thing? Even if she's exaggerating, it seems certain that there's some level of neglect going on, assuming the istp isn't completely making everything up for some reason.
 

proteanmix

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this ^^ is awesome.

in other news, calling Fi Level 1 empathy is shitty.

If you're referring to my post, please read it again. In fact, I'll go straight to the part where I said what I said
Of course, your first instinct is to help and that's what your MIL. But after that, you need to start getting to the bottom of the situation. Once you start doing that digging and untangling those knots you find out more of what's going on and even though you still want to help you often find out the person's hands aren't as clean as you initially thought.

TBH, I feel like this is Level 1 empathy. It's not intelligent empathy, it's not empathy with discernment or wisdom. It's instinctual empathy more or less wanting to see someone else out of misery because it disturbs you. Their hurt, hurts you so you need it to stop so you'll stop hurting, if that makes any sense. To me this is like finding someone beaten and bloody on the street and taking them into your home. You don't know why they're beaten to a bloody pulp, all you know is they are and you feel like you should help. That's level 1. Level 2 (to me) is asking what happened. Why would someone do this to you, what were events leading up to this. Then you get a fuller and more complete picture and you find out what that person's role in the situation was. Level 3 is figuring out how can this be fixed. There are more levels above this and each one has it's on nuances but this is what I'm thinking about the subject.

If you have read that I said Fi is Level 1 empathy then please re-read.
 
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