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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

A

A window to the soul

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This thread has really provided little to no concrete information about the situation.

<removed>....Stop putting words in her mouth and skewing up all things good & lovely.


I'm not foolish enough to attempt to talk
Reality check... And yet ya did, didn't ya cowboy cowgirl?
 
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Tallulah

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I don't think we have enough information to pronounce the ISTP (or J) toxic. Orobas already said she's fond of the woman in general. She's not trying to sap O's energy; she appears to be venting and O read it as negativity or contempt for the ISFP, which we've established to be in question, due to the Fe/Fi misread. I've been around lots of toxic people, and this ain't it, at least not from the description provided here.
 
A

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I don't think we have enough information to pronounce the ISTP (or J) toxic.

I present you with Exhibit A:

O's words in blue indicate severe distress from having to listen to the negative toxic bullshit banter. Classic toxic ISTP woman's words in red below.

BTW, there are a few toxic people that I'm fond of on this website. They're funny when they're ranting at themselves. They also have their rare charming moments.

Convo between 55 yo ISTP and 34 yo ENFP. The ISTP and her INTJ husband run a small church and are my ex in-laws/beloved parental figures.

Background: A young couple with three small children was about to be evicted from their home. The husband had lost his job, they had no car and they electricity and gas had been turned off. Both were raised in foster care and are about 20. The wife shared the story with a church member who then spoke with the ISTP/INTJ and the decision was made to allow the couple and the children to live in rooms at the church adjacent to the sanctuary. The couple appears the be SFPs, with the wife likely an ISFP. They do need a great deal of guidance-they need someone to teach them financial planning and how to be independent. They could use guidance on other aspects of life as well.....

The convo with the ISTP that made me want to dig my own eyes out as I was trapped in a car with her on the drive to church:


ISTP: Her children are malnourished and run around like dogs.

ENFP in my head: Did you just call her children dogs? Really? She loves them and holds the baby all the time and breastfeeds it and the older kids are typical little rowdy toddler boys. Malnourished??? With three small kids, of course it makes sense to let the older two play while she cares for the baby.

ENFP-what I said: Ah, did their pediatrician say they are malnourished?


ISTP: Well all she does is feed them milk all day long and they wont eat meals. I have tried to feed them meals and they just wont eat them. She also hasn’t toilet trained any of them, but I don’t want her doing it at the church as it will ruin the carpet.

ENFP in my head: So are you like hovering over them trying to get them to eat? How many times did you do this, cause that would bother me? Milk is actually quite nutricious, and the kids seem very healthy. Also, her kids are under three-perhaps you forgot your grandsons were not potty trained until 3…

ENFP-what I said: Um, well milk is okay, I guess. Do they have cavaties or signs of deficiencies?

ISTP: The kids are sick all of the time because she is filthy and her children are filthy. They wear diapers all day long and she doesn’t dress them in clothes at all or even bother to clean. She was using the paper plates and napkins in the kitchen and left dirty dishes in the sink. The diaper bin was full and the whole church smelled bad.

ENFP-what I said: Um, yeah I remember you mentioning she did that back when she first moved in. Once you gave her a list of what needed to be done has she been better about cleaning?

ISTP: Well, yes, I guess, but it is only a matter of time before she slacks and let’s everything get messy again.

ENFP-in my head: She treats the area given as her personal living area. Why would you allow her to live there, then assume you could mandate in her personal living space, how she dresses herself or her children. Did you tell her certain kitchen items were off limits? Did you tell her that she needed to pick up the area? Once you gave her a list of things to do, she has been doing it, but that doesn’t change your complaint….why are you complaining about something she isn’t doing anymore?


ENFP-what I said: Well, all the kids have been pretty sick this year. The toddler and my boyfriend keep getting sick-a lot of colds and sore throats. That may be why her kids have been sick-plus they likely give each other bugs. Did you give her specific guidance on cleaning the area?

ISTP: Well it should be obvious! (God love presumptuous Fe)

ENFP-what I said: Um, well sometimes it can be helpful to be pretty direct and list things because different folks have different ideas of the way things are supposed to be. Especially with a foster care upbringing, it may be valuable to give clear direction about what you need.

ISTP: well she says she is a little slow and her kids, well, they don’t even talk yet. They just stare at you when you talk to them. All she does is hold the baby, so I am not surprised.

ENFP-in my head: Don’t you recall that your grandson was 2 and a half and barely talking? Don’t you notice that this grandson is 3 and half and wont speak to strangers? Whay do you treat a delay in speech as a failing on her part? Why haven’t you encouraged her to take the kid to a professional?

ENFP-what I said: well she seemed very introverted the time I meet her-(likely an ISFP)-perhaps the children are introverted or just shy around strangers. Have you considered helping her contact ECI to get the children screened if you think there is a reason for delayed speech.

ISTP: Well, then they would just take her kids away for being so filthy and being in diapers all the time. And an introverted person wouldn’t have gone around begging for help on main street to a stranger would they?

ENFP-what I said: She was begging for a place to live?

ISTP: Well no, but she just started talking to the other lady from our church and telling her a Sob story about her life, so what else could we do?

ENFP-what I said: Did she actually ask for money or help or a place to live? Did she seek anything from you?

ISTP: well, no but god spoke to us, so we had to offer her help.

ENFP-in my head: Fucking faceplant. Let me get this right….the women shares her story-likely because she felt like she was with someone who might be able to give her reflective feedback or maybe just listen…this is how Fi works. .instead you guys took it as an Fe call to action. She never asked you for help, yet you made her an offer of help. Once she (poor dumb little lamb) accepted your offer of help, you moved her into your church and began a daily barrage of all the things she is doing wrong as a mother, but never directly, only in this oblique passive aggressive manner. Note you never talk about the father but instead harp on this women. Instead of giving her direct feedback and guildlines, you look down upon her and insult her as being a horrible person daily and whisper behind her back but then smile nicely when you actually speak to her face.

ISTP: Anyways if she cared about her kids, she wouldn’t have cancelled her doctor’s appointments.

ENFP-what I said-She cancelled her dr’s appts? Why?


ISTP: well I don’t know, she just texted us and said she didn’t need any more rides, that she had canceled her doctor’s appointments. It makes our life so much easier as it really was difficult to have to change our schedule to give her a ride.

ENFP-in my head: Ah, I get this. You made her feel like shit everytime she asked for a ride, emo guilt tripped her, until she executed a shitty Te boundary. She was tired of your emo guilt trips so she found a way not to have to ask you for anything. A stupid move on her part, but I GET it.

ENFP-what I said: Perhaps she felt she was burdening you, and so tried to find a way not to ask so much of you by canceling the appointments. I can see myself doing that.

ISTP: Well if she really cared, she would be living there and would do a better job cleaning up.

ENFP-in my head-Didn’t we already talk about how she is doing a better job cleaning? Yet you keep mentioning this….

ENFP-What I said-Have you given them guidance on when they need to have a place of their own?

ISTP: well you’d think they would have done that by now. It’s obvious (god love presumptuous Fe)that they cant stay there.

ENFP: did you tell them when they need to leave?


ISTP: well finally last week I had to tell them directly that they needed to be out by the first.
ENFP-in my head-you gave them 1 week to find a new place?????? WTF????

ISTP: yeah they don’t even come into the church service anymore. No effort at all. They just sleep in until ten or so on Saturdays and Sundays watching television.

ENFP-in my head: really? I wonder why they don’t seek your idea of jesus anymore? So far you have done a really nice job exemplifying why I detest seeking help from others as so often it comes with these nasty judgments and pity combined with condemnation. So much for Christian giving if it isn’t in the spirit of giving but rather just meanness. And on Saturdays? What business is it of yours what time they sleep in till???

As we arrived at church the ISTP did the grossest thing. She takes my arm, pulls me close to her side and says “Well somebody said we may have hurt her feelings, given she cancelled her dr’s appts, but I think if her feelings were hurt, she would have showed it by moving out by now.” Then she snickered. I wanted to throw up. I had become part of the “in-crowd”

ISTP: Well even though they are moving out, I will still have to stop by their house because she obviously (god love presumptuous Fe) doesn’t know how to parent her children.

ENFP-in my head: YOU DETEST THIS WOMEN. YOU LOOK DOWN UPON HER WITH DISGUST. YOU TREAT HER BADLY AND CALL HER CHILDREN DOGS. WHY, THEN, DO YOU INSIST ON HELPING SOMEONE YOU FIND SO BENEATH YOU??????? IF YOU FIND HER SO FOUL, WHY NOT JUST LEAVE HER ALONE?

ENFP-what I said: Oh, that’s nice.
 
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Southern Kross

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Orangey, I agree there is are certain unspoken obligations that the homeless family have to the church and the volunteers, but its really hard if you constantly have to reiterate your gratitude (either directly or indirectly through actions). I have a cousin in another city that I have stayed with so I could do some errands. She would always claim she's glad to have me (and would encourage me to come) but her behaviour made me feel like I had to constantly thank her for every little thing she did - eg. reminding me that I was lucky to stay with her etc. While I was grateful for the free bed and breakfast in the morning etc, I began to really resent the expectation of constant gratitude - I see this as being an ungracious host. After 2 such trips I have stopped staying with her, even though it was only a minor issue in the scheme of things, I'd rather pay for a bed in a hostel than have to endure it.

Just because this family is desperate and had no other real options, doesn't give people the right to exploit their desperation and demand whatever they feel like from them; they must remember to be a gracious host. Note: I'm not saying the church have necessarily been a bad host - I'm just saying that by offering to help, they also have obligations to fulfill. To quote another Jewish saying, the Talmud says: "If you save a life you must take responsibility for it". Offering help to someone to make yourself feel better then cutting them loose without giving them a real chance to get on their feet is pretty bad behaviour too (if this was the case).
 

Tallulah

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Not enough info? Well okay, I present you with Exhibit A:

O's words in blue indicate severe distress from having to listen to the negative toxic bullshit banter. Classic toxic ISTP woman's words in red below.

BTW, there are a few toxic people that I'm fond of on this website. They're funny when they're ranting at themselves. They also have their rare charming moments.

I think we just differ on what constitutes toxic. All of that, even the red parts, reads as frustrated venting to me. It offended Orobas' Fi sensibilities, and it seems to be offending yours now. My Fe doesn't see it as toxic at all. I can handle a good bit of Fe/Ti ranting before I start to feel drained. People I've considered toxic and had to cut out of my life (after a long period of trying to understand them) are people who a) come seeking my advice for the same problems over and over and over, but never end up making any changes because they just like the attention, b) are so insecure that they feel the need to try and bring me down in subtle or overt ways, or c) are people who I like okay, but who are easily set off, causing me to feel like I'm walking on eggshells around them, trying not to upset them or anger them.

I don't think it's healthy to write people off as toxic when they likely just have a different communication style, though. If that were the case, I'd write off every Fi-dom friend every time they said something in the heat of anger as toxic, when really, they just communicate their frustration differently, and at different speeds/times than I do.
 

Orangey

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<<vocabulary word removed>> Stop putting words in her mouth and skewing up all things good & lovely.

I know you've found a new and fun vocabulary word and everything, and I'm sure you're real excited, but that doesn't mean that you should use it any old time you feel. Branch out, my friend. Branch out.

<<pejorative removed>>

Reality check... And yet ya did, didn't ya cowboy?

You're a real wit, aren't ya?

Orangey, I agree there is are certain unspoken obligations that the homeless family have to the church and the volunteers, but its really hard if you constantly have to reiterate your gratitude (either directly or indirectly through actions). I have a cousin in another city that I have stayed with so I could do some errands. She would always claim she's glad to have me (and would encourage me to come) but her behaviour made me feel like I had to constantly thank her for every little thing she did - eg. reminding me that I was lucky to stay with her etc. While I was grateful for the free bed and breakfast in the morning etc, I began to really resent the expectation of constant gratitude - I see this as being an ungracious host. After 2 such trips I have stopped staying with her, even though it was only a minor issue in the scheme of things, I'd rather pay for a bed in a hostel than have to endure it.

Just because this family is desperate and had no other real options, doesn't give people the right to exploit their desperation and demand whatever they feel like from them; they must remember to be a gracious host. Note: I'm not saying the church have necessarily been a bad host - I'm just saying that by offering to help, they also have obligations to fulfill. To quote another Jewish saying, the Talmud says: "If you save a life you must take responsibility for it". Offering help to someone to make yourself feel better then cutting them loose without giving them a real chance to get on their feet is pretty bad behaviour too (if this was the case).

I agree, and I never said that beneficiaries never have the right to feel resentful towards their benefactors. I was merely stating that, given the info we've been provided in this thread, I think it would be utterly imprudent and irresponsible for this particular ISFP woman to discard the material benefits of the situation to herself and (more importantly) her children because she's feeling resentful. Some things in this world are more important than our individual selves and how we feel.
 
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Amargith

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O, you make the most head-spinning threads :laugh:

Question...I was intrigued by the Fi/Ti rant.

Could it be that Fi cannot fathom the emotional inconsistency displayed when reaching out to people (why are you helping someone who you're clearly showing contempt for, in a way that will only push them further into that emotional tar pit, aka the self-esteem issue), while Ti cannot fathom the logical inconsistency displayed when offered assistance (why are you not responding to me when you get everything you need to fix all the systematic flaws which landed you here in the first place??)

I think it hurts FeTi users to see that someone has all the material and logistical shit they need to fix their situation and *still* somehow make a mess of it, while it hurts Fi to see that their acts of kindness are incongruent with the frustration they're displaying at this person (even worse when you *are* that person as you feel like you're on borrowed time and their frustration is incredibly hard to shut out making you all stressed and lose your confidence even more), as well as the blindness they display to making the emotional mess inside an Fi-user's head even worse.

In other words:

FiTe users need to have emotional consistency *before* they can fix things externally. That means that the ISFP needs to feel like she *can* do this, needs to sort out what doesn't *feel* right inside (self-esteem damaged, avoidance issues accompanying that, she basically needs her confidence build up with small tasks bit by bit, showing her that she *can* succeed in life and she needs that emotional guidance first and foremost as things start there for her), BEFORE she can actually fix all the logical flaws which make her perhaps not the best mother around. Unfortunately, for the kids, it needs to be the other one first, but fixing that is impossible unless you fix the mom (to be very blunt here), which is the very frustrating thing, as well as probably hard to understand for TiFe users who probably hurt at the sight of logical inconsistency and ache to fix that instantly.

It also explains the argument here. You wonder how you can possibly feel one way about a person and then act another, and then hold what seems like resentment towards the person who didn't ask a thing, as it's not exactly fair in your mind nor consistent. While Fe-users are wondering why on earth no one is seeing the logical inconsistency causing the situation and doing something about it already! How they feel about the person takes a back seat, in the face of a goal to be reached and is just a byproduct as such, whereas to us its the crux to understanding what this person needs emotionally to stand strong in life and to permanently resolve the situation they're in. That however, can make it drag on forever and isn't always equally practical nor realistic.

However, when Fe-tactics are applied to Fi-people..especially young people, they have the opposite effect as the prodding to move ahead has a paralyzing effect on Fi which cannot ignore the amount of emotional inconsistencies going on and gets bogged down in that. You're effectively adding to the burden of the person as they now not only have to figure out their own head aches, but also why they're causing yours (or try and avoid it all together) and they never get around to what they have to fix in order to get out of this hole. Vice versa, having Fi applied to an Fe person makes them probably go: Ok, you're sweet to me, but ultimately that doesn't help me here! Add to that that we tend to want to respect people's personal bubbles and wait till we're asked to do something (as we experience that as nosy ourselves), and the perception of laziness, not as good a friend as they thought and unreliable easily come to life.
 

Athenian200

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Not enough info? Well okay, I present you with Exhibit A:

O's words in blue indicate severe distress from having to listen to the negative toxic bullshit banter. Classic toxic ISTP woman's words in red below.

You're offended just because she believed something negative about the other person? The OP seemed offended mostly by the feeling that the ISTP looked down on the other person as a human being, and not so much the fact that she criticized her, but you seem offended that she said ANYTHING negative about another person, regardless of whether it might have been true. That's a little extreme, don't you think?

This rant about "negative toxic" things is not helping the OP, or anyone else.

Anyway, I'm not saying that the sentiments couldn't be viewed as negative and toxic (they could), but I don't think that's the only way to view them. It's not a black and white issue.

I believe that most of the disagreement on this issue stems from different ways of looking at the situation, and different standards of behavior that people hold others up to. It isn't from negative intention or malice on the part of any party.
 

Totenkindly

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There's also the issue where there is no way to discern whether or not the OP is being accurate in "quoting things verbatim," so it's hard to explain why someone I never met might be "toxic" (the opening question was extremely loaded); and meanwhile, the issue of potential abuse of the kids, a valid concern regardless, is still being conveniently ignored in favor of once again hashing over Fe/Fi issues. At least the abuse issue is something concrete that could be resolved, even if the rest is subjective.

I think we just differ on what constitutes toxic. All of that, even the red parts, reads as frustrated venting to me. It offended Orobas' Fi sensibilities, and it seems to be offending yours now. My Fe doesn't see it as toxic at all. I can handle a good bit of Fe/Ti ranting before I start to feel drained. People I've considered toxic and had to cut out of my life (after a long period of trying to understand them) are people who a) come seeking my advice for the same problems over and over and over, but never end up making any changes because they just like the attention, b) are so insecure that they feel the need to try and bring me down in subtle or overt ways, or c) are people who I like okay, but who are easily set off, causing me to feel like I'm walking on eggshells around them, trying not to upset them or anger them.

I don't think it's healthy to write people off as toxic when they likely just have a different communication style, though. If that were the case, I'd write off every Fi-dom friend every time they said something in the heat of anger as toxic, when really, they just communicate their frustration differently, and at different speeds/times than I do.

Yeah. All that. And it's pretty obvious there's an issue in this case (negligence/abuse of kids) that would be driving any seemingly judgmental commentary, which is different to me than someone who is continually toxic in any situation.
 

InvisibleJim

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What I like about Fe is that if you ask them a direct personal question they are willing to give a direct honest answer if they attribute it to themselves. If they are balancing lots of viewpoints they will make that very clear. Te is very helpful here.
 

cascadeco

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On the topic of rants:
These appears to be fluctuating, works in progress where a variety of perspectives, questions, comments and interim judgments are being tried out.

Fi rants typically and trying to understand why one would hurt another, will sound self centric with "I" involved, will involve words like mean, hurtful, cruel, and other Fi-ish judgments.

Te rants will typically be questioning of the competency or ability of another to resolve issues-thus may include others being stupid or useless.

Ti rants seem to be questioning the lack of logical consistency or another and trying to find motives that explain why someone would do the irrational

Fe rants seem to be seeking explanations for lack of adherence to acceptable social mores.

To any other party who doesnt speak our judgment language, there is a risk of hearing these rants come across very negatively it seems. Please feel free to edit/comment on these thoughts or expand upon them as you understand them.


Now I have to go deal with frozen pipes.

With respect to Fe, I have no idea what you mean by ranting about the lack of adherence to social mores. I think it's important to point out that 'adherence to social mores' has more of a direct tie to SFJ's (Si in conjunction with Fe, as the Si leads to more need to go towards the past and what is familiar and 'acceptable'/the 'norm' from a societal standpoint). Both SFJ's and NFJ's are other-focused (often more concerned with how the other is doing and impacts on the other vs. staying true to self, as our concept of self is different from that of an Fi-er), but NFJ's don't have a rulebook based on social mores/norms. NFJ's are more inclined to adjust to the unique needs of the other person, and the unique situation at hand, and their 'rulebook' is going to be more unique and based on their own Ni-based data. NFJ's are aware of the social norms, and might play along in a public setting, but when it comes to 1:1 interaction and situations such as described in the OP, they're really not concerned with there being some specific code/behavior/social more that must be followed. It's more general and custom-tailored to the individual, with of course an end-goal/*application* always driving things... less specific and rigid in how it is applied.

What I very well might rant about is people being oblivious to or not even factoring in other peoples' needs/personalities - so ranting about people who have a lack of interpersonal awareness of how their own actions impact other people - or in extreme cases, people who simply don't care how their own self/behaviors impact others.

Edit: Now, tying what I just said to the OP and what the 'istp' was saying, the bulk of her venting was tied to how the isfp's actions and behaviors were impacting not only the lives of the children (others) but also the lives/situation of the church and others. Focus obviously wasn't on how the isfp was doing as a person, emotionally, and her background and issues and feelings and what she's going through, but how all of her choices are impacting everyone else - not accounting for or knowing what other peoples' needs might be, but rather going with what works for her and how she does things. Although, as a result of how the isfp wasn't accounting for others, in the mind of the istp, the isfp therefore got lowered in her estimation and was therefore judged negatively as a result.

I also relate very much to the Te slant of lack of competency/ability to follow through.

Relate to Ti too.
 

Poki

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Hi guys,

Didnt have time to read the most recent comments, my apologies. But I did note the banter above about Toxic. My MIL...well she is a bit like my ex husband. and like the other ISTPs I have known in real life. They are exceptionally practical, pragmatic, problem focused, but not always great at long term logistical planning and I think it can fairly be said they aren't exactly known for sensitivity.

Having said that they can have very sweet caring Fe, it is real and sincere and they do seek to help others. It contrasts very sharply to protean's Fe which is extremely nuanced, refined, resolved, but they do feel very deeply. The Fe judgments appear childlike to be honest, but well meant. In this situation-in that particular convo, it did feel very toxic-it hurt me-fluctating frustrated Ti hitting flutuating frustrating Fi as Satine noted-however in general she is not a toxic person. I suspect she is emotionally exhausted at this point. In some ways it is almost an unfair expectation to place an ISTP in this sort of position as I would not anticipate she has huge reserves of empathic endurance.

A funny ISTP MIL story:

So one day we were getting ready to go to church. My older enfp son and I were out front and we saw a little snail on the ground crawling along. I bent down and I started explaining how the snail uses it's tail as a tongue and mouth and eats the stuff on the ground. We talked about the snail slime being lubricant to help the snail glide along and how the internal organs of the snail are inside the shell and protected. MIL comes out and asks what we are doing. I start telling her...

*CRUNCH*

goes the black high heel. "Tina the snails eat all the plants in my garden. We​
dont like snails." I am frozen in a state of awe-horror at the squished snail and I look over at the 11 yo ENFP to see if he goes with horror-sadness or yucky-squished snail-boy-delight. We sort of looked like mirrors at this point-eyes wide in shock but sort of grinning like crazy people. Then we both snickered due to a complete and total cognitive disconnect..​

Yeah sounds terrible, but I am laughing as I write this. We now affectionately call her "snail crusher". I suppose if you choose to hang out with folks who are drastically different from you, well you better be willing to roll with and adapt to those differences. The OP highlighted an aspect I hadnt really encountered before, thus you guys helped me develop a new interpretive tool kit of sorts, much appreciated.

As for the family, that wasnt the aim of the thread and I was hesitant to commit to action. Understand once I commit to helping someone, I must honor my words. If I say I will help, but dont or only help partially, then it is a total failing of honor and integrity on my part. Also realize that to help, I will/must open my heart and really care for this family-It is not simply a commitment of action but a commitment of an emotional bond. This opens me up to being hurt because action and caring are the same thing.

For future reference-
Commentary related to the abstract analysis of the topic, please continue in this thread.

For problem solving related to the family, offers or suggestions, please place those in my Blog-Residual Dipolar Couplings in the NF blog place. The family lives on the outskirts of Dallas, thus suggestions of resources near there would be of value. We will be helping the family move next week and I have asked DIL to allow me to help MIL and remove some of the burden as she seems emotionally exhausted.



On the topic of rants:
These appears to be fluctuating, works in progress where a variety of perspectives, questions, comments and interim judgments are being tried out.

Fi rants typically and trying to understand why one would hurt another, will sound self centric with "I" involved, will involve words like mean, hurtful, cruel, and other Fi-ish judgments.

Te rants will typically be questioning of the competency or ability of another to resolve issues-thus may include others being stupid or useless.

Ti rants seem to be questioning the lack of logical consistency or another and trying to find motives that explain why someone would do the irrational

Fe rants seem to be seeking explanations for lack of adherence to acceptable social mores.

To any other party who doesnt speak our judgment language, there is a risk of hearing these rants come across very negatively it seems. Please feel free to edit/comment on these thoughts or expand upon them as you understand them.


Now I have to go deal with frozen pipes.

I know with me personally I am 100% aware of my inferior ability of Fe so I avoid as much as possible IRL. I may give my opinion or what I think, but I am in no way forceful with either Ti or Fe when it comes to other people unless I have to to be pragmatic. But the second I realize it doesnt work I back down as it was an attempt to find what works. I am extremely aware of being pragmatic and I am extremely pragmatic, but I have a different feel to pragmatic then most of the ISTPs you know. Bitching, nagging, etc. is not pragmatic unless it actually accomplishes something. I have a more passive method of being pragmatic then say Protean and if I am not able to do things in this passive manner I accept my limitations and just do what I can. Being pragmatic is a way of life which means that everything you do is based around what works and a constant adjusment in every single situation.

Pragmatism is a philosophical movement that includes those who claim that an ideology or proposition can be said to be true if and only if it works satisfactorily, that the meaning of a proposition is to be found in the practical consequences of accepting it, and that impractical ideas are to be rejected.

Now you have a Ti pragmatic and a Fi pragmatic that can revolve around this definition. This is a constant shifting of this ideology of pragmatism. Te/Fe is more of a goal driven/focused pragmatism. Your MIL sounds like she just wants to nag so someone else takes care of things. Whether it be the ISFP or an outside party. If she were to nag like this to Protean, Protean would do something about it as will Peacebaby. I believe what PeaceBaby and Protean have in common fall into one of the Socionics Quadras(ENFJ/ISTJ/ESTP/INFP). Its a group of people who can actually accomplish things with there normal mode of doing things. Your MIL would fit perfect in this group of people of PeaceBaby and Protean.

My ISTJ uncle will start harping on stuff to try to get someone riled up so they do something about it. He attempts to do this to me and fails miserably because I dont really care. My lack of using Fi like an Fi user would. He will focus on social mores which I am not really huge on either which will rile up a strong Dom Fe user as it did Protean. A strong Fe user like Protean would take a much stronger stance and put in a whole lot more effort then I would in these situations. But personally I will always chip in to help physically/monetarily because those things dont take any effort on my part. Physical is fun and I honestly dont care that much about money as long as I am enjoying myself in my current situation.

To me its not really Fe/Fi gone bad, but when peoples natural way of doing things dont align with another persons. Protean drive and PeaceBabies enjoyment of falling back into Ne ideas and ability to use Te with help from Protean as a team is extremely functional, and a person who bitches in the manner your MIL does fits into this well. Oro, you are simple the messenger here and actually accomplishing something despite what you focus is. This is how the world revolves and how everyone uses everyone and how things actually get done.

Just my 2 cents and I know I bounced all over the place in my thoughts.

Sometimes people focus to much on how people go about accomplishing things and not whether it is actually pragmatic or not. For me when I hit pragmatic I step back and look at the outcome of a situation. The way it was handled could be better, but I did the best I could with what I had. Its a constant comparison and adaptation of what works.
 

PeaceBaby

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^ poki, this is a delightful post, actually, and insightful.

When I was reading the OP, putting myself in O's shoes, the question kept coming to my mind as the listener - "Well, what do you want me to do about it?" When I hear this kind of venting, yes, I think about the lack of consistency (between words and actions) and find it disturbing, but I also think about what the other person is trying to evoke in me as a response. How they are trying to get me involved, "suck me in" as it were.

In my "real life" people know I have a history as a doer, and also likely know I have a hard time saying no to appeals from the heart, so yes, I do know how I get conscripted into certain tasks and projects! :laugh:

Sometimes I get excited to help, honestly sometimes I do resent it, especially if the person in question has a habit of just complaining and not solving their problems independently, or trying to evade the actual work itself.

This is how the world revolves and how everyone uses everyone and how things actually get done.

Indeed.
 
A

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You're offended just because she believed something negative about the other person? The OP seemed offended mostly by the feeling that the ISTP looked down on the other person as a human being, and not so much the fact that she criticized her, but you seem offended that she said ANYTHING negative about another person, regardless of whether it might have been true. That's a little extreme, don't you think?

This rant about "negative toxic" things is not helping the OP, or anyone else.

Anyway, I'm not saying that the sentiments couldn't be viewed as negative and toxic (they could), but I don't think that's the only way to view them. It's not a black and white issue.

I believe that most of the disagreement on this issue stems from different ways of looking at the situation, and different standards of behavior that people hold others up to. It isn't from negative intention or malice on the part of any party.

I'm not at all offended. I don't have a strong feeling one way or another about this topic. I saw a situation where it appeared skylights was being bullied by another member in a very covert manner. Coincidentally that behavior and the type (ISTP) lined up with the original post (in my opinion). That triggered my memory of something an ISTP told me about a realization he had of himself a couple of weeks ago about being toxic and he sent me links to different resources; including the article I posted. That's the second ISTP to mention the word in conversation.

Toxic is a word I had never heard used to describe people before until a few months ago. It's like the negative thinking has such a strong hold over these types of people, that it puts them in these weird circular thinking patters where they're fretting. I've never seen anything like it. That was the first time I had explored the subject of what 'toxic' people look like and how their behavior is not always apparent to their victims (or even to themselves).

Yesterday, for the first time I saw a pattern of this behavior in SP's that I had never noticed before. I was trolled by an ISTP in an SP thread, which I love ISTP's. This ISTP seemed hellbent on making sure I (one of the few members left that still loves istp's), no longer did. It is my opinion, based on the research I did, that the original post illustrates what a toxic person looks like. Now whether that woman behaves that way all of the time, I don't know.
 

Orangey

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You're offended just because she believed something negative about the other person? The OP seemed offended mostly by the feeling that the ISTP looked down on the other person as a human being, and not so much the fact that she criticized her, but you seem offended that she said ANYTHING negative about another person, regardless of whether it might have been true. That's a little extreme, don't you think?

This rant about "negative toxic" things is not helping the OP, or anyone else.

Anyway, I'm not saying that the sentiments couldn't be viewed as negative and toxic (they could), but I don't think that's the only way to view them. It's not a black and white issue.

Agreed.
 

skylights

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incidentally, i thought there was negative intent too, but i was left a very nice message letting me know that there wasn't :)

this happens to me and my INTP brother too sometimes, so i understand. our communication styles are very different and we can misread one another.

but thank you NG, because i appreciate you saying something.


theorizing: i think that some TPs (especially IxTPs) could potentially come off as toxic even when very much not, because of the way they tend to vent and/or argue, which is with logical Ti first and latent, unsteady Fe. Fe can create distance and project disdain. Ti tends to criticize, but without high F, so it can seem like there is criticism and disdain without support. they are not always the most socially tactful people either (no offense TPs, neither am i).

fwiw, i don't really think oro's MIL is toxic.

Orobas said:
We now affectionately call her "snail crusher".

:rofl1:
 

onemoretime

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The issue here is not between Fe/Fi, but rather Ti and Fi. Ti needs to identify patterns existing outside the person's control. Therefore, when talking about the woman, she is being judgmental, but not in the sense that perhaps you understand it. Rather than judging her as a person, she's judging her as an object within the classes "human," "woman," and "mother." The Fe only comes out in the concern for the children, as it needs to impose security and unity upon a population. Meanwhile, your Fi, which needs to "grok" (for lack of a better word) the things in the outside world that lead either to unity and security, or discord and strife, reacts strongly, because it recognizes the demeaning and judgmental statements as terribly divisive and threatening. At that point, your Te, which needs to impose some external predictability on the unsettled situation, leads you to keep quiet, lest the whole thing get out of control.
 

Poki

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The issue here is not between Fe/Fi, but rather Ti and Fi. Ti needs to identify patterns existing outside the person's control. Therefore, when talking about the woman, she is being judgmental, but not in the sense that perhaps you understand it. Rather than judging her as a person, she's judging her as an object within the classes "human," "woman," and "mother." The Fe only comes out in the concern for the children, as it needs to impose security and unity upon a population. Meanwhile, your Fi, which needs to "grok" (for lack of a better word) the things in the outside world that lead either to unity and security, or discord and strife, reacts strongly, because it recognizes the demeaning and judgmental statements as terribly divisive and threatening. At that point, your Te, which needs to impose some external predictability on the unsettled situation, leads you to keep quiet, lest the whole thing get out of control.

Think you have confused NeTi with just Ti.
 

Orangey

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I (one of the few members left that still loves istp's).

:rofl1:

It is my opinion, based on the research I did, that the original post illustrates what a toxic person looks like. Now whether that woman behaves that way all of the time, I don't know.

Wouldn't you need to observe a consistent pattern of "toxic" behavior over time in order to say that someone was a toxic person?
 
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