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  1. #71
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Well, this thread has gone exactly where I would have predicted ... who says you need Ni to see the future?


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I feel this, and then feel compelled to move. It is not enough for me to just feel this...this moves me to action. It fuels me into DOING SOMETHING. I don't stop at this point. Maybe this is a difference between Fe and Fi because if I feel this strongly about something I have to do something. I feel disturbed and rattled internally if I don't move.
    Since I am an Fi user who is driven to help, to do real stuff in the real world, I'll add a little bit. I have logged probably thousands of hours of community service at this point in my life. The problem for me is that Fi out is a huge energy drain. I can totally get why some Fi users retreat from trying to do as much as their heart asks of them. Personally, I have burnt myself out in the past, and still have trouble with maintaining the right energy balance. Fi drives you to try to help everyone according to your ideals or you feel like you have failed. If you care about one, you should care about all. You'll say that's not logical, but it's logical.

    Also, why didn't you feel this with the ISTP? You felt the ISFP's "pain" but did you not feel the ISTP's frustration? How did you rank who's emotions were more insistent and valid? Why did you automatically empathize with the ISFP but not the ISTP?
    I feel both sides here ... yet it's more natural for Fi to side with the underdog, no? The ISFP is at a deficit in many ways - knowledge, finances, lack of parenting experience, stability, to name a few. The ISTP is in the power position, and offers help yet seems to be using it to judge the people instead of their actions - and their actions are what need assistance. I think it would be a great idea to engage the ISTP in some dialogue focussing on compassion; it would be a long-term proposition though meant to expand the definitions of it for herself too. She sounds like a person who is pretty hard on herself. At least short-term, in a convo like this, I think O should share a little of how what's being said appears to her, without causing any unnecessary rift between herself and the in-laws.

    I'll pull this quote out earlier from skylights:

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    Fi is about internal consistency; this woman's speech and behavior are not consistent. she may be generous but she does not seem to believe behind closed doors what she demonstrates outwardly through behavior. her goodwill thus seems disingenuous. so Fi looks for other motives for the behavior: perhaps she is doing this because it makes her feel superior, which would seem to be more in line with the things she says, etc....
    It's not just what you do, to Fi it's about what you say and what you feel inside about it too. This consistency ... is vital. If you're going to be generous, be generous through and through, not begrudge the people you are helping behind their backs. Not hitch your assistance to a whole wagon of unspoken, assumed conditions, where you choose to "pull the pin" if the people being helped don't "give back" the way you expect they should. I'm not saying you can just "give give give" ... the context of helping should be placed up front and center. For this church example, if they had told the family, "We will allow you to live with us for 8 weeks while you save enough to get your own place again, and will help you get set up with a young mom's group for support and learning, and teach you to what standards we expect the place to be kept up to while you are here. Do you agree to this?" THEN there's a time to hold people to standards ... I am not sure this happened in this situation?

    Complaining about this feels more condemnatory than just "blowing off steam" ... it feels like writing people off as losers, failures, which feels wrong to do. Does that help explain it?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #72
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK, what is your next step after this? Is there a next step or is this enough for you, to feel this and nothing more needs to happen? I'm asking this seriously because I'm not understanding.

    I feel this, and then feel compelled to move. It is not enough for me to just feel this...this moves me to action. It fuels me into DOING SOMETHING. I don't stop at this point. Maybe this is a difference between Fe and Fi because if I feel this strongly about something I have to do something. I feel disturbed and rattled internally if I don't move.

    Also, why didn't you feel this with the ISTP? You felt the ISFP's "pain" but did you not feel the ISTP's frustration? How did you rank who's emotions were more insistent and valid? Why did you automatically empathize with the ISFP but not the ISTP?
    Pain>frustration always until the circumstances are fully understood. My apologies, it is just the way it is-for me, not sure about others. I actually felt frustrated for the ISTP as well. However then I started doing the thing that drives ENTPs fucking bonkers. Instead of seeking more clarification, I started providing solutions. You should do this, you should try that. Yeah, not the best approach when she was venting, so I changed tactics in mind stream and then started asking her questions to try and change her perspective.

    Next steps? Hmm.. emotions are not a call to action always. I dont feel compelled to jump up and do anything. I feel compelled to do internal value housekeeping actually and sort out what went right and wrong and why. What do i need to change, what did I feel that was okay to feel, why was I so upset by this. These reworking of values will form a better defined Fi ruleset to apply in the future. Better educated, more understanding, more appropriate to apply in the real world. A more fair and reasonable ruleset.

    Sometimes emotions/strong values do prompt action. However with a shitty Fi ruleset, if I take action it may be innappropriate, thus the above remolding is required when I deal with a situation that leaves me in an emotionally conflicted state. This is where talking with others helps as the other perspectives can shed light on my misunderstandings. Typically what will prompt an immediate response of action is a violation of a very core Fi value-freedom of speech, hurting others, others being treated unfairly sometimes. More often though my long term Te goals are motivated by underlying Fi motives...but it can look really Te on the surface.

    In this case...well I was just going to walk away, but an interesting comment I once saw about tert Fi in an INTJ. It doesnt like to get it's hands dirty and at some point will just walk away...if I walk away I am kind of doing the same thing. Internally idealistic, but not willing to get dirty in the trenches. That is a very fair appraisal and a valid critique from the Fe side.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So could it be possible that the ISTP/INTJ couple began this way as you describe you would, and as their involvement and knowledge of the situation increased, their evaluation and feelings towards this woman and her family changed and what you experienced in that car ride was a manifestation of the change in attitude? Not any condemnation of the ISFP as a human, not hypocrisy, not undue and harsh criticism, just the natural flow that occurs once you gain more knowledge and insight into a situation? That she asked them to leave as a way of distance? That she wasn't quite sure of what she was getting into when she offered assistance in the first place?

    This is what I'm getting at and what several people have been saying all along.
    I suspect...

    • They didnt know what they were getting into.
    • They had not planned or bounded the situation properly.
    • They did not understand the impact this would have upon them and didnt understand the emotional endurance required for a long term project like this

    I also suspect..
    • The ISTP was not a willing party in this from the start.
    • Once involved, she tried to help, but her inf Fe can be SO very hard to deal with as it gets fixated on really weird trivial details but misses important stuff. To an FP, even me, she never stops nagging, little endless comments all the time, about everything. (i love her/she drives me a bit nuts)
    • She was likely more polite to the family, but they are such a mess, that the commentary was there from the start and the mom could see through her politeness and felt judged.

    • The ISTP likely tried to be really "nice" thus wasnt very direct in instructions or boundaries.
    • The ISTP also assumed certain things would be "obvious", not getting how uneducated these folks are, thus becoming more frustrated.
    • That the ISFP mom became quickly sullen, withdrawn and defensive (passive agressive) and after about a month started ignoring her outright and stopped attending services after about six weeks.
    • This intensified the feeling of being ignored by the ISFP and left the ISTP feeling unappreciated and even more critical of the ISFP, even though the ISFP was completing many of the requested tasks.


    At this point it is personal towards the ISFP from the ISTP. She never comments on dad or family, but on mom, over and over again, and with every redirection or suggestion, she reroutes into another complaint about mom. This is an Ne observation...a repeating pattern of harsh critique towards one person. It triggers a red alarm for me, because I know the ISTP so well, and I know how annoying she can be when on a roll, so I expect it isnt simply a buildup of complaints but increasing hostility that she doesnt seem to be "heard" by the ISFP. I actually feel sympathy that she feels unheard and frustrated by the other person...but the commentary was very harsh.

    INTJ DIL actually just said the dad was a bit defensive about financial advice, but otherwise he had no negative comment. He called them kids and said they needed to grow up.

    Fidelia's initial observations were very good-boundaries and clear expectations as well as experience would have resolved many of the issues here that may be routed in communication and different value systems.

  3. #73
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I have to get back to work before I get fired, but I wanted to say thank you very much to protean, orngey, random, cascadco, and especially athenian whose comments are really thought provoking but I havent had time to address yet. I know threads like this can be edgy and angstful and I apologize for the discomfort caused, but what can be of such value is hearing alternative views and realize how each person sees the world so differently.

    By forcing me to hear your views or challenging my assumptions, growth occurs, so i am grateful to hear thoughts, even if they are very different from mine. I much appreciate the time you guys take to contribute and the thoughtful manner in which you do so.

  4. #74
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Since I am an Fi user who is driven to help, to do real stuff in the real world, I'll add a little bit. I have logged probably thousands of hours of community service at this point in my life. The problem for me is that Fi out is a huge energy drain. I can totally get why some Fi users retreat from trying to do as much as their heart asks of them. Personally, I have burnt myself out in the past, and still have trouble with maintaining the right energy balance. Fi drives you to try to help everyone according to your ideals or you feel like you have failed. If you care about one, you should care about all. You'll say that's not logical, but it's logical.
    Actually, I didn't think to categorize it as logical/illogical. I know what burnout feels like, I've felt it and I pull back. When I recouperate I go back out again. If I feel driven to help a period of exhaustion is just that, a period, and I'm right back out there again when I feel refreshed.

    BTW, I don't want to make this about who logs in the most community service hours, just to clarify. Whatever your chosen outlet is, then fine.

    I feel both sides here ... yet it's more natural for Fi to side with the underdog, no? The ISFP is at a deficit in many ways - knowledge, finances, lack of parenting experience, stability, to name a few. The ISTP is in the power position, and offers help yet seems to be using it to judge the people instead of their actions - and their actions are what need assistance.
    I mentioned this several times already: what does it mean to get in the dirt with someone? The ISFP is deficient, she needs help. No one questions that. Who's going to get in the weeds with her to help her through? The only person thus far who has done this is the ISTP. Not Orobas. Orobas is outraged and Fi-offended but she has not done anything that would give her deeper insight into the situation. When you get in the mud, what do you expect to happen when you start seeing the situation as a soldier on the ground not as a fly on the wall? Your perspective changes, things get unclear, the situation gets more complex. You see that the reason why the person may not have keep the dr's appt was because she was out late the night before and didn't wake up in time (this is hypothetical NOT that Orobas said this). You may see that the person takes the money they're given to care for the children and spends it on alcohol, clothes, and other nonsense. You see that the person's attention isn't going towards the kids because they're too busy trying to keep their romantic life in tact and the expense of the kids. Look at what Orobas said the ISTP complained about:

    • She also hasn’t toilet trained any of them,
    • The kids are sick all of the time because she is filthy and her children are filthy.
    • They wear diapers all day long and she doesn’t dress them in clothes at all or even bother to clean.
    • She was using the paper plates and napkins in the kitchen and left dirty dishes in the sink.
    • The diaper bin was full and the whole church smelled bad.


    Are those valid reasons to be upset and frustrated?

    Once you start seeing the details of the situation, who's the underdog? Does the person who appeared to be the underdog still look that way? We all believe the person is doing the best they can and trying to do their best. But at the same time you understand how they contribute to their own miserable situation. Even though they are trying to do better it can frustrate you as the person watching this and trying to help as much as they want and allow you to and still see them struggling. Why is it the person struggling can make the mistakes, but the person offering the help has to walk the straight and narrow? I'm beginning to believe people need to hit rock bottom in situations like this so they can start climbing out themselves. Unfortunately them hitting rock bottom means the kids will also hit rock bottom.

    I address that discrepancy, that is what unsettles me as a Fe user. That is inconsistent, that is where actions, behaviors, words, and feelings misalign. To me that is the travesty of the situation. You say you love your kids, you hug them and kiss them, but you won't even change their dirty diapers? How is that consistent? How is that caring and loving?

    For this church example, if they had told the family, "We will allow you to live with us for 8 weeks while you save enough to get your own place again, and will help you get set up with a young mom's group for support and learning, and teach you to what standards we expect the place to be kept up to while you are here. Do you agree to this?" THEN there's a time to hold people to standards ... I am not sure this happened in this situation?
    I don't think this happened either from what has been explained, but is this a Fe failure or a communication failure? I think Orangey already addressed this...the couple may not have worked out all the minutiae of what living in the church meant. As I stated earlier, no one needs to explain to me that if I'm living on the good grace of another I need to clean up after myself, I need to empty trash and wash the dishes I dirty. Unless I'm paying rent, I give up a few freedoms in the name of having a roof over my head based on the generosity of someone else.

    This more than likely frustrated the ISTP because to her (and me) it seems obvious to do these things. On top of that, the ISFP didn't regularly feed, bathe or clean the children and then seemed to be puzzled why they are sickly. This is neglect, plain and simple.

    And once again, who's to say that the ISTP (who is her MIL and priobably felt comfortable enough with O to say what she said) didn't explain this to the ISFP and her family? You'd be surprised when you think you're clearly communicating with someone and they have not a clue of what you said. I would be insulted if someone told me, wipe the toilet after you're done, clean your dishes from the sink, don't leave stinky diapers in the trash if I were staying with them. Those are things I know to do! Is that really Fe?

    Complaining about this feels more condemnatory than just "blowing off steam" ... it feels like writing people off as losers, failures, which feels wrong to do. Does that help explain it?
    I suppose.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #75
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    yet it's more natural for Fi to side with the underdog, no? The ISFP is at a deficit in many ways - knowledge, finances, lack of parenting experience, stability, to name a few. The ISTP is in the power position, and offers help yet seems to be using it to judge the people instead of their actions - and their actions are what need assistance.
    I actually see the kids here as the underdog. The mom is in a power position over them.

    I also tend to not see people as "underdogs" when they're abusing/neglecting their kids, but maybe that's a Fe thing. (heh). I like protean's explanation.

    I'm reading some Fi comments as "it's better to not help, rather than help while secretly being horrified at this person's neglect" and I'm sure you're not saying that, but it's hard not to hear it from what you're saying.....
    -end of thread-

  6. #76
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Actually, I didn't think to categorize it as logical/illogical. I know what burnout feels like, I've felt it and I pull back. When I recouperate I go back out again. If I feel driven to help a period of exhaustion is just that, a period, and I'm right back out there again when I feel refreshed.
    That's good. What I meant is logical/illogical was the following. "If you care about one, you should care about all." Not the burnout.

    I agree, anyone can experience burnout. For me, extroverting the Fi, which is the impetus to help, is really draining, it doesn't recharge me. Just have to be careful.

    BTW, I don't want to make this about who logs in the most community service hours, just to clarify. Whatever your chosen outlet is, then fine.
    I thought you implicated above that Fi users didn't get their hands dirty. Wanted to counter that, not trying to boast, just laying it out plain.

    I mentioned this several times already: what does it mean to get in the dirt with someone? The ISFP is deficient, she needs help. No one questions that. Who's going to get in the weeds with her to help her through? The only person thus far who has done this is the ISTP. Not Orobas.
    Well, O said she lives 200 miles away; in all fairness, it seems only now is she pulled enough into the story to start contemplating how she could (or should) help. Don't you think? Or at least offer that as the benefit of the doubt?

    Orobas is outraged and Fi-offended but she has not done anything that would give her deeper insight into the situation.
    She made this post not to stand in judgement of Fe, but to understand better why her ISTP MIL was venting and saying the kind of things she said, which really seem to contradict her actions. Am I missing something there?

    When you get in the mud, what do you expect to happen when you start seeing the situation as a soldier on the ground not as a fly on the wall? Your perspective changes, things get unclear, the situation gets more complex. You see that the reason why the person may not have keep the dr's appt was because she was out late the night before and didn't wake up in time (this is hypothetical NOT that Orobas said this). You may see that the person takes the money they're given to care for the children and spends it on alcohol, clothes, and other nonsense. You see that the person's attention isn't going towards the kids because they're too busy trying to keep their romantic life in tact and the expense of the kids.
    I totally get this and agree - for example, I used to volunteer with teen moms, one of whom had a drug-dealer boyfriend who she would try to break off with, but then he would feed her needs, and not just for her habit, for a new TV, for a hookup ... things are messy, messy indeed. It takes a lot to get involved in these situations, and there are often no easy answers or solutions. I think that's part of the problem, when you first start volunteering, it seems like if you just offer all the information and be a good role model, it should be enough. But there's this special key inside of people, this inner place of motivation, that only that person controls. And most people give all that power away, for all the broken reasons people do. Difficult.

    Look at what Orobas said the ISTP complained about:

    • She also hasn’t toilet trained any of them,
    • The kids are sick all of the time because she is filthy and her children are filthy.
    • They wear diapers all day long and she doesn’t dress them in clothes at all or even bother to clean.
    • She was using the paper plates and napkins in the kitchen and left dirty dishes in the sink.
    • The diaper bin was full and the whole church smelled bad.


    Are those valid reasons to be upset and frustrated?
    Oh yes, they absolutely are reasons to be upset. But O was asking ... why would she say those things? Is she exaggerating? I think your answer was to vent and blow off steam. I think what O was saying was that it feels more judgey of the person? Not of the situation. Do you think that the ISTP has a good opinion of the ISFP mom?

    Once you start seeing the details of the situation, who's the underdog? Does the person who appeared to be the underdog still look that way?
    I think it's important to be very careful here ... people sometimes are helping because they accept the edicts of their church for example, to help others. They are still in the power position because they have made the choice to get involved. They want the person to change according to their preconceived notions of what they need in order to improve their lives. It can be very subjective, and the person helping is still more in the position to step away or withhold. Yes, of course, there are master manipulators among us ... and good people get taken advantage of. The ISTP here could be a victim of trying to uphold a morality that they don't feel in their heart, but that still does not make them the underdog here.

    I might not have had control in all of my volunteer matches, couldn't help encourage all of these girls to make changes that I thought would be beneficial for them and their babies, but I made that choice to get involved, which meant I had the power to step away.

    We all believe the person is doing the best they can and trying to do their best. But at the same time you understand how they contribute to their own miserable situation. Even though they are trying to do better it can frustrate you as the person watching this and trying to help as much as they want and allow you to and still see them struggling. Why is it the person struggling can make the mistakes, but the person offering the help has to walk the straight and narrow? I'm beginning to believe people need to hit rock bottom in situations like this so they can start climbing out themselves. Unfortunately them hitting rock bottom means the kids will also hit rock bottom.
    Totally agree. Very difficult.

    I address that discrepancy, that is what unsettles me as a Fe user. That is inconsistent, that is where actions, behaviors, words, and feelings misalign. To me that is the travesty of the situation. You say you love your kids, you hug them and kiss them, but you won't even change their dirty diapers? How is that consistent? How is that caring and loving?
    This is wonderful. Really. You've connected dots that not everyone connects. I know it seems ridiculous ... unbelievable! Yet, people struggle with real world responsibilities, real world obligations, ones that push them to their limits of maturity in their ability to place the needs of others in front of their own. Yet, there can still be love. Not caring perhaps, in the way we think of it, but there is still love there ... so what needs to happen is to tap into that love and use it to help mature the mom in a way that educates yet does not judge her. Without good modeling in the first place, already so much against her, but it is possible. Sometimes it's like planting seeds ... you really don't see the fruit of them until much farther in the season. Again, it comes to that inner key, that place where people make change not because they are obligated to, but because they are transformed to.

    I don't think this happened either from what has been explained, but is this a Fe failure or a communication failure? I think Orangey already addressed this...the couple may not have worked out all the minutiae of what living in the church meant. As I stated earlier, no one needs to explain to me that if I'm living on the good grace of another I need to clean up after myself, I need to empty trash and wash the dishes I dirty. Unless I'm paying rent, I give up a few freedoms in the name of having a roof over my head based on the generosity of someone else.
    Total communication failure. Not Fe. Te. Sometimes it's hard to swallow one's pride ... or feel that you are thought less of by these supposedly caring people who speak love with their tongues, yet none is to be felt from their hearts. You would use these acts of service to repay the debt, but not everyone transacts in the same way.

    This more than likely frustrated the ISTP because to her (and me) it seems obvious to do these things. On top of that, the ISFP didn't regularly feed, bathe or clean the children and then seemed to be puzzled why they are sickly. This is neglect, plain and simple.
    Well, I again think it's careful to remember the ISTP is venting, which I might add I totally get her need for, but perhaps she could be exaggerating to drum up sympathy for her end of the equation. I would want to see with my own eyes before I judged the level of neglect.

    And once again, who's to say that the ISTP (who is her MIL and priobably felt comfortable enough with O to say what she said) didn't explain this to the ISFP and her family? You'd be surprised when you think you're clearly communicating with someone and they have not a clue of what you said. I would be insulted if someone told me, wipe the toilet after you're done, clean your dishes from the sink, don't leave stinky diapers in the trash if I were staying with them. Those are things I know to do! Is that really Fe?
    It means you were raised to a standard to understand these rules. It's not Fe per se. Not everyone knows this stuff though, or wants to feel beholden to other people's standards, or judged because they lack them.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #77
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I actually see the kids here as the underdog. The mom is in a power position over them.

    I also tend to not see people as "underdogs" when they're abusing/neglecting their kids, but maybe that's a Fe thing. (heh). I like protean's explanation.

    I'm reading some Fi comments as "it's better to not help, rather than help while secretly being horrified at this person's neglect" and I'm sure you're not saying that, but it's hard not to hear it from what you're saying.....
    I don't hear the Fi people saying it's better not to help. And the kids are the victims of circumstance, yes. Rather than just accept the ISTP MIL's account of the situation however, I would want to see it for myself. I wonder, as I already mentioned in my reply to protean, how much exaggeration is found in the venting to justify her upset feelings.

    And if you all think ISTP is venting, why is everyone seeming to accept her venting at face value?

    My Mom generally speaks in absolutes about stuff like this, until pressed ... "Your brother never changes his socks, it's just disgusting how he comes home and can't even change them." Well, really, he wears them for 4 or 5 days in a row, like any laundry-challenged INTP bachelor. It's not like he never changes them!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #78
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yeah, I can definitely see the ISTP lady's perspective, but.... still, it seems like wasn't trying to help the person in any way other than physically. She wasn't telling her what she needed to do, or anything that would have actually helped her in the long run. I can see both sides of this... on one hand, yes, she seems like a parasite. But on the other, nothing was done to discourage that behavior, and encourage her to improve her own situation. "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"? That seems to be the lesson here. They just kept giving her fish, and expected that she would realize that she needed to figure out how to fish. They never came out and told her that she needed to learn how to fish.
    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    If you think it's hypocritical to help someone and be critical of them would it be better for the help not to be given at all?

    I do think that people who step up to ‘help’ by giving someone a fish- then criticizing them for not starting to fish on their own directly thereafter- are just being cruel. I think the challenge of gaining the self-confidence and belief in oneself should be considered as much a priority as material help, especially since both parents were raised in foster care (if the stigma about foster care is even remotely true). Without the belief that one is capable of functioning independently in the world, there isn’t much point in putting forth the effort to do so. It’s like expecting a flashlight to work before putting batteries in it. And simply being critical of people who don’t know ‘how to fish’- for not fishing- is only reinforcing negative beliefs about themselves, reinforcing the belief that they aren’t capable. Anyone who ends up homeless is already, on some level, too aware of their incompetence- maybe not on an obvious level, but it's still there. That kind of help can be toxic, and do more harm than good.

    With that being said, it isn’t really clear in the op, the extent to which negative judgment expressed actually got back to this woman- either with direct language or having it conveyed with snarky attitude.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    So-to copper fish and proteanmix-the point of the post wasnt complete condemnation of the ISTP, even though we have gone back and forth a bit. Remember that often when you see someone externalize Fi, it is not a judgment, but exploratory. So the goal of the post wasnt to say "Fe is evil and the ISTP is SATAN" The goal of letting the values and sense of Fi offense be seen was to explore what pieces I am missing. I feel frsutrated, offended, hurt for the women thus....what am I not understanding?
    I know others already tried making this point: Orobas, do you see how this^ could very well be what the church woman was doing with you, too? Just trying to work out her perceptions by saying them outlound to another person? Externalizing Ti in an exploratory way? Out of curiousity, how do you think the church woman would respond to being reminded of the fishing proverb, and pointing out that *maybe* the problem with the ISFP woman isn’t ingratitude so much as truly not grasping things which might seem clear to most people?


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    If you're going to be generous, be generous through and through, not begrudge the people you are helping behind their backs. Not hitch your assistance to a whole wagon of unspoken, assumed conditions, where you choose to "pull the pin" if the people being helped don't "give back" the way you expect they should. I'm not saying you can just "give give give" ... the context of helping should be placed up front and center. For this church example, if they had told the family, "We will allow you to live with us for 8 weeks while you save enough to get your own place again, and will help you get set up with a young mom's group for support and learning, and teach you to what standards we expect the place to be kept up to while you are here. Do you agree to this?" THEN there's a time to hold people to standards ... I am not sure this happened in this situation?

    Complaining about this feels more condemnatory than just "blowing off steam" ... it feels like writing people off as losers, failures, which feels wrong to do. Does that help explain it?
    The point made in the above paragraph is a good one, and it seems like the church woman is also being condemned for not already knowing it (just like it seems she is condemning the ISFP for not *magically* picking up on certain ‘rules’). Just like it would be best to reserve harsh judgment on the ISFP until she refused to do things that were made clear to her- wouldn’t it be best to reserve judgment on the church woman until she was given a chance to consider new information?
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  9. #79
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I think it's fair to accept the ISTP's venting at face value, since we're accepting Orobas' venting about the ISTP at face value (at least i am).

    I don't tend to exaggerate much myself, which is not to say this istp isn't - we don't have any way to know really, but I don't think istps tend towards that much, from what I've seen. But then, what does it really matter whether she was exaggerating? Are you just talking about the underdog thing? Even if she's exaggerating, it seems certain that there's some level of neglect going on, assuming the istp isn't completely making everything up for some reason.
    -end of thread-

  10. #80
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    this ^^ is awesome.

    in other news, calling Fi Level 1 empathy is shitty.
    If you're referring to my post, please read it again. In fact, I'll go straight to the part where I said what I said
    Of course, your first instinct is to help and that's what your MIL. But after that, you need to start getting to the bottom of the situation. Once you start doing that digging and untangling those knots you find out more of what's going on and even though you still want to help you often find out the person's hands aren't as clean as you initially thought.

    TBH, I feel like this is Level 1 empathy. It's not intelligent empathy, it's not empathy with discernment or wisdom. It's instinctual empathy more or less wanting to see someone else out of misery because it disturbs you. Their hurt, hurts you so you need it to stop so you'll stop hurting, if that makes any sense. To me this is like finding someone beaten and bloody on the street and taking them into your home. You don't know why they're beaten to a bloody pulp, all you know is they are and you feel like you should help. That's level 1. Level 2 (to me) is asking what happened. Why would someone do this to you, what were events leading up to this. Then you get a fuller and more complete picture and you find out what that person's role in the situation was. Level 3 is figuring out how can this be fixed. There are more levels above this and each one has it's on nuances but this is what I'm thinking about the subject.
    If you have read that I said Fi is Level 1 empathy then please re-read.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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