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  1. #61
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Also, if this woman is an istj (nothing screams "non-istp" to me fwiw, I see some patterns of myself in there, unfortunately) you might actually be seeing your own "exploratory Fi" in her, rather than "Fe judgment" (Not that Fi is immune from making "judgments", but that's beside the point). Just something to consider.
    -end of thread-

  2. #62
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The kind of posts I've been seeing most recently seem likely to make the OP feel more confident in their negative opinion of Fe, due to her being condemned for her feelings on this matter. I consider this unfortunate, because she seemed to actually want to understand why the other woman acted the way she did. Many Fi users hold negative opinions of Fe, and never even give us a chance to explain our side of it.
    Who cares what her opinion of Fe is? We're not even sure if what we're talking about has anything to do with Fe or Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    People are angry with you because they feel that you are devaluing the ISTP's attempt to help, and calling her lacking in compassion, simply because it wasn't done the way you would have done it. They are not understanding that you are actually most annoyed because of your perception that the ISTP was condemning not her actions, but the woman as a human being.
    No, I think most people recognized early on that Orobas was confusing the ISTP's condemnation of actions as a condemnation of the person. The problems now stem from the bolded; it is as though, by setting up this artificial interpretation of the ISTP woman's behavior as Fe, and her own as Fi, and then giving long explanations about how Fi is nothing other than unconditional love, she is suggesting that she never would have behaved or thought the way that the ISTP woman in the story did.

    This seems like BS for three reasons; (1) we don't know if the behaviors being described fit Fi or Fe, (2) she hasn't experienced being entangled in this family's affairs, and (3) she doesn't know all of the particulars of the situation. How can she be so presumptuous as to know that she would not behave similarly if in the same situation? The only way she could say that with confidence is if she bought into some idea that Fi somehow exalts her (or, if not Fi, then some other quality about herself.)
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  3. #63
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Also, if this woman is an istj (she doesn't seem non-istp to me fwiw) you might actually be seeing your own "exploratory Fi" in her, rather than "Fe judgment" (Not that Fi is immune from making "judgments", but that's beside the point). Just something to consider.
    Yeah.. this is a reason I start prickling a bit when it comes to Fe/Fi discussions - as most of the statements this ISTP made are things I could see my ISTJ mother saying.. I mean, my ISTJ mother can be incredibly blunt and more emo-y with regards to how she judges other people, and statements she makes about them. Nothing terribly fine-tuned/diplomatic with her when it comes to her value judgments and how she feels about a given thing/situation. As well, she is MUCH more concerned with 'proper' ways of doing things. Which is why I brought up Si as another player in the mix of at least behavioral niceties and expectations. It's certainly not just Fe.
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  4. #64
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Yeah.. this is a reason I start prickling a bit when it comes to Fe/Fi discussions - as most of the statements this ISTP made are things I could see my ISTJ mother saying.. I mean, my ISTJ mother can be incredibly blunt and more emo-y with regards to how she judges other people, and statements she makes about them. Nothing terribly fine-tuned/diplomatic with her when it comes to her value judgments and how she feels about a given thing/situation. As well, she is MUCH more concerned with 'proper' ways of doing things. Which is why I brought up Si as another player in the mix of at least behavioral niceties and expectations. It's certainly not just Fe.
    Agreed.
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  5. #65
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Proof positive? Did I not include enough caveats in my post? Was I not abstracting the idea enough beyond the specific case?
    No, I don't think you were.

    So are you saying that you believe that respect is an attitude to be inculcated in oneself, and that that is the ideal version of respect?
    I'm saying that basic human decency and respect towards other humans doesn't preclude Fe or Fi. As I understood you, Fe respects based on social standing/status/worth/value vs. Fi respecting you simply because you're another human being. Then you went on to describe why Fi respects others,

    ...also includes the more neutral "human decency" version of respect, an acknowledgment that others are different, and that even if one doesn't like the other person, there are still boundaries that one doesn't cross.
    Your Fe version of respect is paper thin and does come across as superficial, especially the bolded:

    The Fe/Ti version appears to align with notions of being credentialed, trustworthy, of having to earn status/position much as one earns money...The Fe/Ti usage equates "respect" with admiration and esteem...The "admiration" version of respect seems to think it's OK to be disrespectful (to whatever socially acceptable degree) to those who haven't earned respect, yet.
    Tell me when you compare and contrast those statements how one come across vs. the other?

    Or was my use of the common understanding of Jesus' teachings (whether or not one is Christian) too morally loaded for you?
    That too. When you compare something to Jesus what do you expect?

    I'm not saying either one is ideal, but that they are different qualitative understandings that share the same word. Thank you for phrasing it as a question and leaving open the possibility that I did not mean to offend.
    You may not have said it explicitly, but I did interpret that you implicitly felt one was more ideal.

    In general, I associate Fi with "inculcating attitudes." That the attitudes are relatively constant and tend not to change based on external circumstances. The Jesus' love example was in that vein: the attitude is within oneself, and not dependent on the external object of the love.
    How are you figuring that the ISTP isn't feeling this or doing this?

    Fe is more reactive and adaptive to the external circumstances. This does not imply that it is "superficial." Rather, its expression is necessarily (and deliberately) variable. As my INFJ Mom put it to me,"<Uumlau>, I will always love you, but sometimes I really don't like you." The external circumstances bring in conditions that are invisible to Fi, and the "inculcated attitude" has implications that are invisible to Fe.
    Firstly, you didn't say this at first and this is way more neutrally worded. Secondly, because one Fi user doesn't see external circumstances, doesn't mean they're invisible to Fi and nor does it mean Fe is blind to the inculcated attitude. I'm around a lot of SFPs and they don't act like this, so maybe this is an NFP thing. Even look at O's example about her friend's mother being mugged...what options did she really have? Was she going to not going to give the person mugging her (I assume they had a weapon) what they wanted? How was that even Fi? The external circumstances were that she was being mugged, not that it was some twisted Fi Moment of Kindness.

    Is due diligence outside the purview of Fi? That's what I'm understanding, but once again please correct me if I'm wrong.

    On top of this, and has been stated repeatedly in this thread O's came in bad-mouthed and talked about the ISTP woman "behind her back" the same way the ISTP talked about the ISFP "behind her back." Why won't either one of you address the similarities of the situation?

    Do you really NEVER say anything unflattering about someone when they're not around. It absolutely never happens? Never said anything about a boss or coworker? An ex? A friend? A family member? A politician? A bill collector? Even though you care about the person they never do anything that frustrates or annoys you enough to say something unflattering when they're not around? I think it's called "blowing off steam" and it seems common enough to have a colloquial expression attached to it.

    If you haven't I'd like to know your secret. I don't think what she said was disrespectful, I think she was venting.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  6. #66
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Who cares what her opinion of Fe is? We're not even sure if what we're talking about has anything to do with Fe or Fi.
    I do, for one. I care about what other people think of me, and what they think of other FJs. The point is that she BELIEVES that it does. Type cannot be determined in any objective way. So, if we're not willing to work starting from her assumptions, we can't even have a civil or productive discussion. So, I presented my view of what the situation would have meant IF the person were an Fe user, she were an Fi user, and the misunderstanding was a result of conflict there.

    Besides, her misunderstandings in this situation seem to fit my own experiences with Fi users misunderstanding me. It doesn't seem far-fetched to me that this could in fact be an Fi/Fe conflict.
    No, I think most people recognized early on that Orobas was confusing the ISTP's condemnation of actions as a condemnation of the person. The problems now stem from the bolded; it is as though, by setting up this artificial interpretation of the ISTP woman's behavior as Fe, and her own as Fi, and then giving long explanations about how Fi is nothing other than unconditional love, she is suggesting that she never would have behaved or thought the way that the ISTP woman in the story did.
    That is exactly the kind of behavior Fi users tend to engage in that frustrated me a couple years ago. I later discovered that Fi users tend to espouse ideals, not expecting us to take them as realistic depictions of their behavior. They tend to judge things according to ideals as well, while not really expecting them to be practically achievable. Also, I first assumed that they wanted to be seen as unconditionally moral or loving, when in reality, they merely mean to say that they value such things and strive for them, not that they embody them. It seems like she's talking about behavior, when she's actually judging the (seeming lack of) ideals she believes that the other person holds, based on their words alone. This can be very aggravating, I realize.
    This seems like BS for three reasons; (1) we don't know if the behaviors being described fit Fi or Fe,
    I believe I addressed that above.

    (2) she hasn't experienced being entangled in this family's affairs,
    Again, that's something you have to learn about Fi... Fi users are dismissive of experience or the effect of the external environment. It appears quite arrogant, but it's not intended that way. She's mostly judging something that has nothing to do with the families affairs. She's judging whether it's right to condemn a person for their behavior, if they didn't realize it was wrong. That's the only thing she's considering, no external information would be considered even if it were available.
    and (3) she doesn't know all of the particulars of the situation. How can she be so presumptuous as to know that she would not behave similarly if in the same situation? The only way she could say that with confidence is if she bought into some idea that Fi somehow exalts her (or, if not Fi, then some other quality about herself.)
    She isn't trying to exalt herself, she's expressing her ideals of what's "right." She doesn't actually expect herself or other people to live up to those ideals. Fi ideals seem weird to us, because there is no expectation of actually living up to them, they're just there... and the person judges things according to them... and this doesn't always result in action. It's like a contemplated moral ideal. But it isn't meant to serve the same purpose as Fe, it's meant to back up other functions like Ne and Se.

  7. #67
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    But she didn't say those things to the ISFP, she said them to you. Therefore she did not intend to hurt the ISFP, she intended to vent to you.
    It hurts because in some sense I forsee the pain that the comment would have had upon the ISFP. It would have hurt her very much. When I forsee that pain-I FEEL that pain. I carry that angst and sadness myself for an event that never actually happened. The potential of the event is enough to make me cringe and hurt for her. I very much realize this will seem strange-but it is how Fi works for me and perhaps others-I cannot say. It makes it VERY hard for me to say mean things about others, although it is easy to comment upon their actions in a more objective sense.

    Fi connects me to others. (granted it is a cute psychological mirror trick that forces empathy, even when not in my own best interest, but it is still my reality and what defines right from wrong.)

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Orobas, will you start getting more involved with this woman who is obviously in need? Do you think deeper involvement will change your perspective about this situation?
    So, combining with my response to Orangey above...From a distance I start with no assumptions of ill intent or cheating and assume the other party will honor their word. I assume best intent and feel empathy and connection to them as a felow human and assuem they are undergoing hard times. Thus it isnt okay to disrespect this person or be mean. Basic trust and respect is given automatically. Based upon evidence I may change my judgment. I may find that even when approached in a positive way, the family fails to respond. At that point I would reduce my support in stages with explicit warnings and boundaries defined. Eventually, like my sister, I would establish distance.

    Unfortunately in this case, everything was confused from the start and communication muddied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This just seems like an elaborate way to backtrack and easily disavow the things that you say. And as folks have been trying to tell you, any "pieces [you are] missing" are pieces of information about the situation, not information about Fi or Fe.

    Fi is nonlinear, thus it will not be logically consistent, especially from moment to moment. Sure it is all over the place but I dont judge myself on logical consistency, so it isnt a big deal.

    Emm, no when I say pieces, I mean an understanding of the mind of another person-the mom-in-law that allows me to reframe and understand why she is acting in a way that I initially judge as cruel. If placing that in the frame of Fe-Fi (or Ti-Fi or 34yo vs 55yo or alien vs predator) allows a better understanding, then I will explore those avenues until I find a solution. The base Fi assumption is "People typically have the best intent". She was Fi judged as "cruel" yet "she likely had the best intent" are not consistent values-illogical to Fi I suppose. You cant have the best intent and be "cruel". So I have to place myself in her shoes to try and understand what she sees/feels that makes her actions "not cruel".

    Fi-sorta like Ti but all fucked up and emo.

  8. #68
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    It hurts because in some sense I forsee the pain that the comment would have had upon the ISFP. It would have hurt her very much. When I forsee that pain-I FEEL that pain. I carry that angst and sadness myself for an event that never actually happened. The potential of the event is enough to make me cringe and hurt for her. I very much realize this will seem strange-but it is how Fi works for me and perhaps others-I cannot say. It makes it VERY hard for me to say mean things about others, although it is easy to comment upon their actions in a more objective sense.

    Fi connects me to others. (granted it is a cute psychological mirror trick that forces empathy, even when not in my own best interest, but it is still my reality and what defines right from wrong.)
    OK, what is your next step after this? Is there a next step or is this enough for you, to feel this and nothing more needs to happen? I'm asking this seriously because I'm not understanding.

    I feel this, and then feel compelled to move. It is not enough for me to just feel this...this moves me to action. It fuels me into DOING SOMETHING. I don't stop at this point. Maybe this is a difference between Fe and Fi because if I feel this strongly about something I have to do something. I feel disturbed and rattled internally if I don't move.

    Also, why didn't you feel this with the ISTP? You felt the ISFP's "pain" but did you not feel the ISTP's frustration? How did you rank who's emotions were more insistent and valid? Why did you automatically empathize with the ISFP but not the ISTP?

    So, combining with my response to Orangey above...From a distance I start with no assumptions of ill intent or cheating and assume the other party will honor their word. I assume best intent and feel empathy and connection to them as a felow human and assuem they are undergoing hard times. Thus it isnt okay to disrespect this person or be mean. Basic trust and respect is given automatically. Based upon evidence I may change my judgment. I may find that even when approached in a positive way, the family fails to respond. At that point I would reduce my support in stages with explicit warnings and boundaries defined. Eventually, like my sister, I would establish distance.
    So could it be possible that the ISTP/INTJ couple began this way as you describe you would, and as their involvement and knowledge of the situation increased, their evaluation and feelings towards this woman and her family changed and what you experienced in that car ride was a manifestation of the change in attitude? Not any condemnation of the ISFP as a human, not hypocrisy, not undue and harsh criticism, just the natural flow that occurs once you gain more knowledge and insight into a situation? That she asked them to leave as a way of distance? That she wasn't quite sure of what she was getting into when she offered assistance in the first place?

    This is what I'm getting at and what several people have been saying all along.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  9. #69
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    No, I think most people recognized early on that Orobas was confusing the ISTP's condemnation of actions as a condemnation of the person. The problems now stem from the bolded; it is as though, by setting up this artificial interpretation of the ISTP woman's behavior as Fe, and her own as Fi, and then giving long explanations about how Fi is nothing other than unconditional love, she is suggesting that she never would have behaved or thought the way that the ISTP woman in the story did.
    Um, I would never have said mean things like my mom in law did? hehe. Actually i would do my best not to say mean things, but of course, when I have been very hurt I have said horrible, horrible things and be very terrible and evil to others. The are some of the worst things I have ever done. In retrospect I carry those moments forever branded upon me as lessons of how I have to learn to control my emotions and my actions as to not hurt others around me..

    Mom in law WAS attacking the person-she just didnt understand she was. She didnt understand the effect it has on me, and she doesnt understand how much it may hurt the women as well. When an Fe judgment is passed upon an Fi user...it IS attacking the person, because Fi is our essence. However I can take Te nudges or even Ti pointed barbs all day long...they hit Te.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Yeah.. this is a reason I start prickling a bit when it comes to Fe/Fi discussions - as most of the statements this ISTP made are things I could see my ISTJ mother saying.. I mean, my ISTJ mother can be incredibly blunt and more emo-y with regards to how she judges other people, and statements she makes about them. Nothing terribly fine-tuned/diplomatic with her when it comes to her value judgments and how she feels about a given thing/situation. As well, she is MUCH more concerned with 'proper' ways of doing things. Which is why I brought up Si as another player in the mix of at least behavioral niceties and expectations. It's certainly not just Fe.
    I suppose since Fid picked up on the Fe-isms straight away I just assumed they made sense. But you are very correct in the S component-Se I suspect. As an older ISTP she is interesting as she was exceptionally practical, pragmatic and tough when younger but now all the Fe like things she notes have a very heavy S to them. They involve physical things about clothes, hair, the house, eating and drinking of certain foods, but in a neurotic way that is really hysterical when it isnt pointed at you. Hehehe, when my inf Si kicks in I roam around scrubbing baseboards with toothbrushes , so I wouldnt expect inf Fe to besmooth ly displayed. However she is really disorganized in other aspects of life and late to most everythingand cant plan logistically for anything and doesnt have an once of Fi in her bones. . I do love her a lot though

  10. #70
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    No, I don't think you were.
    Fair enough.

    FWIW, I think the ISTP was simply venting. That wasn't the topic of my post, hence you drew conclusions as if I were responding directly to the OP, rather than opining about "respect."

    I'm saying that basic human decency and respect towards other humans doesn't preclude Fe or Fi.
    Agreed.

    Tell me when you compare and contrast those statements how one come across vs. the other?
    What do you believe is the difference between "respect" and "disrespect"? People draw the line in different places. The admiration version of respect isn't superficial, but you seem to feel that it is. It's the "neutral" version of respect that gets confusing, regarded as either positive or negative depending on one's context, c.f., the "socially acceptable" caveat I included.


    That too. When you compare something to Jesus what do you expect?
    Kind of like Godwin's Law, eh?

    You may not have said it explicitly, but I did interpret that you implicitly felt one was more ideal.
    I have a feeling that both Ti and Fi are more "idealistic" than their extroverted counterparts. This is a trait, not a virtue. Te and Fe are more "realistic", and similarly this is a trait, not a virtue.

    How are you figuring that the ISTP isn't feeling this or doing this?
    She was engaging in gossip and venting, and just needed someone to listen. The problem is how to interpret the actions. I usually feel uncomfortable when others speak about third parties this way.


    Is due diligence outside the purview of Fi? That's what I'm understanding, but once again please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Fi sees different things to be diligent about.

    On top of this, and has been stated repeatedly in this thread O's came in bad-mouthed and talked about the ISTP woman "behind her back" the same way the ISTP talked about the ISFP "behind her back." Why won't either one of you address the similarities of the situation?
    O was asking our opinion on how to deal with and interpret the situation. The "ISTP woman" wasn't asking O's opinion.


    Do you really NEVER say anything unflattering about someone when they're not around. It absolutely never happens? Never said anything about a boss or coworker? An ex? A friend? A family member? A politician? A bill collector? Even though you care about the person they never do anything that frustrates or annoys you enough to say something unflattering when they're not around? I think it's called "blowing off steam" and it seems common enough to have a colloquial expression attached to it.

    If you haven't I'd like to know your secret. I don't think what she said was disrespectful, I think she was venting.
    Not never, but very rarely. When I do so, I try to do so in a very careful manner, because how I approach the topic says more about me than it does about the person of whom I am speaking.

    Yes, she was venting, but she was also, to a degree, disrespectful.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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