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  1. #51
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is one of the key areas where I've observed Fe/Ti and Te/Fi to conflict. "Respect" appears means something very different for each.

    The Fe/Ti version appears to align with notions of being credentialed, trustworthy, of having to earn status/position much as one earns money.

    The Te/Fi version appears to be more subjective, that "respect" isn't something "earned by others," but rather an attitude that one inculcates in oneself. One respects life, one respects others as human beings, one respects others' rights. That respect is much as Jesus described love, that one should love one's enemies, not just one's friends and family.
    I remember arguing this with an INTJ a long time ago, but he was on the side of "respect has to be earned and very few people get that far for me" and I was on the side of "every human deserves basic respect!" So I'm not sure it's necessarily a Fe/Ti-Ti/Fi conflict as we would both be on the wrong side there (both anomalies, maybe).

    Now both definitions coexist fairly equally in my mind, as I've heard many people using both. It's important to distinguish the intended meaning rather than making assumptions, I agree.

    edit: I think I would use the word differently to imply the different meanings. Like "I respect him" would be the earned respect type, but "treat him with respect" would be the basic human type.
    -end of thread-

  2. #52
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Removing value judgments for a minute-and be very aware we are neck deep in values in this thread-conflicting deeply held values-your post is insightful:

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    You know, if we're talking about personal feelings here, your condemnation of this woman makes my skin crawl.

    She's disgusted by this woman for not raising her kids in a healthy environment, and talking behind her back to you about her disgust (privately).
    That first sentence is almost Fi like-I appreciate and thank you for your honest opinion. Tallaluh, Orangey, and cascadeco mentioning that she ranting, likely using overly "flowerly" language to express her frsutration and felt she was sharing with someone she feels comfortable with. Let's call this a "Ti rant". Note in the OP how different my internal vs external response was. I tried to be very supporting of her as I do care for her, even though she was offending me on this particular topic. I showed my support by trying to accept her and her views and then seeking an alternative explanation to understand why she feels the way she does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    You're disgusted by her for saying that this woman isn't raising her kids in a healthy environment, and talking behind her back to us about your digust (to everyone on the internet).

    How, exactly, do you have the moral high ground here???
    So I come to a trusted, anonymous and analytical venue to share my frustration and sense of offense-an "Fi rant" and seek understanding. (It isnt "everyone on the internet"-that is your Fe sneaking up on you) Which promptly offends you, a Ti/Fe user.

    First-as an aside-the fact that you picked up this pattern was very Ne. The symmetry across the two relationships and the precision. A very TiNe-ish sort of thing to be honest, but Ne all the way.

    Second-it brings up an interesting point-when we each choose to rant in this manner with our introverted functions we run a very high risk of deeply offending the other half. It is in the moment letting off of steam but it seems to be being perceived in an exceptionally negative light by the other side.


    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    edit: I think it's really interesting that you're "loathe to assume the worst" about this isfp who has been shown to be irresponsible, neglectful etc but you're so very quick to assume dark motives for the woman who's been partially responsible for all this charity, helping the family improve their situation. It's almost like by being good to the family, she damns herself by raising your expectations for some reason....
    Again there is a symmetry here. Something about intent vs nonintent, and also...

    Hmmm, I judge people by what they show me to be true and intent. I have not seen objective evidence of the ISFP being anything but ignorant and irresponsible-but not intending to harm. I dont assume dark motives for the ISTP-I just recited flat out what she said . I am actually very uncomfortable reading intent into others motives typically. I dont have to read anything past what she said....it would have harmed the ISFP to hear the ISTP say these things. I suppose a fundamental truth I hold is you shouldnt seek to hurt people. If you intentionally hurt another person, it is wrong. Since her words are so hurtful, it helps to understand that she may not realize how much of an effect her words may have-

    I wonder if because Fi seems to act as a connective bridge, a mirror of sorts, that I could never intentionally harm her as I would feel her pain myself. So to intentionally harm is to harm myself and thus a stupid thing to do...However you guys connect with Fe, empathic, but external. So it is easier to show external care but maintain a very sharp internal separation which allows you to feel both concern and care in a more generalized sense but also condescension of her stupidity. Pure speculation of course.

  3. #53
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Also interesting is how these two understandings handle "disrespect." The "admiration" version of respect seems to think it's OK to be disrespectful (to whatever socially acceptable degree) to those who haven't earned respect, yet. The "human decency" version of respect appears to reserve disrespect for those who have "earned" disrespect - those who appear to be unrepentently bad in whatever regard one is measuring respect.
    Where are you seeing that it's OK to Fe to be disrespectful and ignore human decency? I see a woman venting in the OP. Why is it OK for the ISFP to be totally disrespectful to the generosity of the ISTP and you're focusing on a rant/vent as proof positive of Fe denigrating another human? The OP is thoroughly laced with O's judgments and at this point Orobas has acknowledged she's not even in the same geographic vicinity and I'm pretty sure there are details of the situation she doesn't know.

    But it's OK for Orobas to rant and rail against this woman and it's a sign of Noble and Encompassing Fi? Please. I'm really not digging your rhetoric right here. I totally respect the pattern you're seeking, but when you say things like:

    The Te/Fi version appears to be more subjective, that "respect" isn't something "earned by others," but rather an attitude that one inculcates in oneself. One respects life, one respects others as human beings, one respects others' rights. That respect is much as Jesus described love, that one should love one's enemies, not just one's friends and family.

    Do you mean to say that and do you realize what you're saying? Do you understand how that can be interpreted, especially the bolded? As I am interpreting you, you're saying that Fi is closer to some kind of perfect love and Fe is caught up in the superficials? Like I said, do you mean to say that?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #54
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hmmm, I judge people by what they show me to be true and intent. I have not seen objective evidence of the ISFP being anything but ignorant and irresponsible-but not intending to harm. I dont assume dark motives for the ISTP-I just recited flat out what she said . I am actually very uncomfortable reading intent into others motives typically. I dont have to read anything past what she said....it would have harmed the ISFP to hear the ISTP say these things. I suppose a fundamental truth I hold is you shouldnt seek to hurt people. If you intentionally hurt another person, it is wrong. Since her words are so hurtful, it helps to understand that she may not realize how much of an effect her words may have-
    But she didn't say those things to the ISFP, she said them to you. Therefore she did not intend to hurt the ISFP, she intended to vent to you.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #55
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    That first sentence is almost Fi like-I appreciate and thank you for your honest opinion. Tallaluh, Orangey, and cascadeco mentioning that she ranting, likely using overly "flowerly" language to express her frsutration and felt she was sharing with someone she feels comfortable with. Let's call this a "Ti rant". Note in the OP how different my internal vs external response was. I tried to be very supporting of her as I do care for her, even though she was offending me on this particular topic. I showed my support by trying to accept her and her views and then seeking an alternative explanation to understand why she feels the way she does.

    So I come to a trusted, anonymous and analytical venue to share my frustration and sense of offense-an "Fi rant" and seek understanding. (It isnt "everyone on the internet"-that is your Fe sneaking up on you) Which promptly offends you, a Ti/Fe user.
    No it doesn't offend me. I don't have a problem with what either of you are saying, I'm just bothered by the inconsistency. You seemed very troubled by the "behind her back" aspect so I wanted to point out that you're doing it, too (and to more people). I don't care about it either way personally. Your internal vs. external voice is exactly parallel to what she's telling this woman (external voice) vs. what she's telling you (internal voice). She's being every bit as supportive to this woman in person (well, I'm assuming here, but you imply so and don't say otherwise) as you are with this istp. You're sharing your "internal" thoughts here, just as the istp shared them with you. I'm sure the istp wasn't telling this woman her internal thoughts either. It's exactly the same.

    Second-it brings up an interesting point-when we each choose to rant in this manner with our introverted functions we run a very high risk of deeply offending the other half. It is in the moment letting off of steam but it seems to be being perceived in an exceptionally negative light by the other side.
    Not sure if you're talking about myself or you, but I'm not offended. If you are offended, I'm merely saying what you said to Orangey, and for similar reasons, so I'm not sure why that would be offensive.

    Hmmm, I judge people by what they show me to be true and intent. I have not seen objective evidence of the ISFP being anything but ignorant and irresponsible-but not intending to harm. I dont assume dark motives for the ISTP-I just recited flat out what she said. I dont have to read anything past this....it would have harmed the ISFP to hear the ISTP say these things. I suppose a fundamental truth I hold is you shouldnt seek to hurt people. If you intentionally hurt another person, it is wrong. Since her words are so hurtful, it helps to understand that she may not realize how much of an effect her words may have-
    She wasn't hurting the isfp any more than you're hurting the istp by saying things like "she called her kids dogs!" and making all these value judgments about her along with what you quoted. The istp was mostly saying descriptive things, not hurtful things. The isfp isn't damaged by what she doesn't know, and neither is the istp damaged by what you're saying. You see? Exactly the same.

    I wonder if because Fi seems to act as a connective bridge, a mirror of sorts, that I could never intentionally harm her as I would feel her pain myself. So to intentionally harm is to harm myself and thus a stupid thing to do...However you guys connect with Fe, empathic, but external. So it is easier to show external care but maintain a very sharp internal separation which allows you to feel both concern and care in a more generalized sense but also condescension or her stupidity. Pure speculation of course.
    I don't see it as harming the isfp at all to vent privately to a person who won't repeat the info (I assume). If anything it helps her by taking some steam off the istp so she can better hold her temper with the isfp - and given what you've said here, I'd have a hard time holding my temper with the isfp. Again, it's not harming the isfp any more than you're harming the istp right now.
    -end of thread-

  6. #56
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Orobas, will you start getting more involved with this woman who is obviously in need? Do you think deeper involvement will change your perspective about this situation?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #57
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    So-to copper fish and proteanmix-the point of the post wasnt complete condemnation of the ISTP, even though we have gone back and forth a bit. Remember that often when you see someone externalize Fi, it is not a judgment, but exploratory. So the goal of the post wasnt to say "Fe is evil and the ISTP is SATAN" The goal of letting the values and sense of Fi offense be seen was to explore what pieces I am missing. I feel frsutrated, offended, hurt for the women thus....what am I not understanding?

    So I think it is okay to speak up, even if I dont "help out" because it is worth exploring the discrepancy in values. Maybe to emphasize...I need to understand this discrepency so that I can dismiss the sense of Fi offense and accomodate the ISTPs views with love and understanding.

    (edit-^^this reads funny..the point-OP is just exploratory, seeking insight, not condemnatory)

    But, yes, I know, all talk and no action, I hear you.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post

    And I don't believe that when giving money to Fi users they automatically do the right thing with the money and buy necessities. This is what I'm saying about having some discernment...this does come across as naive to me. I'm sorry it does. I don't just give people money trusting that they'll do the right thing.

    I think it was last year a woman gave a homeless man her credit card to buy necessities for himself and he returned the card. The reason why it made the news is because it's a rarity. I decided to look up this woman a little more and found out that she was a marketing executive who made good money. She could have canceled the card at any time, claimed it was stolen, and wouldn't have to pay a dime. I wondered to myself, wow, did this woman really put herself out on a limb to help this man? It doesn't negate the good she did, but to me it did cast a shadow on her benevolence. I get it, why you would question the sincerity of someone's generosity based on what your MIL said. This is where I start balancing and weighing what really matters.

    If you think it's hypocritical to help someone and be critical of them would it be better for the help not to be given at all?
    I have a better story-an enfj friend shared about her mom. The enfp mom was getting mugged and she asked the guy what he needed. He needed $400 bucks for rent. She wrote him a check and he left. It sounds really stupid, but if you are dealing with an FP in a spot like this....weird shit like this can make a difference. Not all the time, not everytime....but strange little kindnesses can alter how they continue onwards in life. Fi...you give a little and it makes the other person's Fi spark...and they give back...It sounds ridicoulously stupid and niave...but it does work in some sense.

    But yeah in the real world it must be tempered by practicality and a realization that if you give, forget and be willing to walk away, because if you look at what you gave you may not be content with the results. I by no means advocate others should do this-this is just how Fi seems to naturally work and it is how I feel. It is what I do.

    For your last line-it is the type of critique given and what can be done with the critique. It has to be deliverd in a way that doesnt make the person so defensive that they refuse to take the advice and use it. If you hurt their ego and hurt them emotionally, any additional advice you offer will be ignored or even rebelled against.

    Must run, but will look at links you sent and pass on to DIL. Excellent suggestions and ideas all around in your posts. Much to ponder over there.

  8. #58
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    So-to copper fish and proteanmix-the point of the post wasnt complete condemnation of the ISTP, even though we have gone back and forth a bit. Remember that often when you see someone externalize Fi, it is not a judgment, but exploratory. So the goal of the post wasnt to say "Fe is evil and the ISTP is SATAN" The goal of letting the values and sense of Fi offense be seen was to explore what pieces I am missing. I feel frsutrated, offended, hurt for the women thus....what am I not understanding?
    This just seems like an elaborate way to backtrack and easily disavow the things that you say. And as folks have been trying to tell you, any "pieces [you are] missing" are pieces of information about the situation, not information about Fi or Fe.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #59
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Where are you seeing that it's OK to Fe to be disrespectful and ignore human decency? I see a woman venting in the OP. Why is it OK for the ISFP to be totally disrespectful to the generosity of the ISTP and you're focusing on a rant/vent as proof positive of Fe denigrating another human? The OP is thoroughly laced with O's judgments and at this point Orobas has acknowledged she's not even in the same geographic vicinity and I'm pretty sure there are details of the situation she doesn't know.
    Proof positive? Did I not include enough caveats in my post? Was I not abstracting the idea enough beyond the specific case?

    Do you mean to say that and do you realize what you're saying? Do you understand how that can be interpreted, especially the bolded? As I am interpreting you, you're saying that Fi is closer to some kind of perfect love and Fe is caught up in the superficials? Like I said, do you mean to say that?
    So are you saying that you believe that respect is an attitude to be inculcated in oneself, and that that is the ideal version of respect? Or was my use of the common understanding of Jesus' teachings (whether or not one is Christian) too morally loaded for you?

    I'm not saying either one is ideal, but that they are different qualitative understandings that share the same word. Thank you for phrasing it as a question and leaving open the possibility that I did not mean to offend.

    In general, I associate Fi with "inculcating attitudes." That the attitudes are relatively constant and tend not to change based on external circumstances. The Jesus' love example was in that vein: the attitude is within oneself, and not dependent on the external object of the love.

    Fe is more reactive and adaptive to the external circumstances. This does not imply that it is "superficial." Rather, its expression is necessarily (and deliberately) variable. As my INFJ Mom put it to me,"<Uumlau>, I will always love you, but sometimes I really don't like you." The external circumstances bring in conditions that are invisible to Fi, and the "inculcated attitude" has implications that are invisible to Fe.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #60
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Okay, why are we all getting excited here and losing sight of the main point? We seem to be descending into drama about whether the OP was "right" to feel what she did, or how she's being hypocritical. But I believe the post was made because the OP wanted to understand why the ISTP felt what she did, because she had been left with the impression that she was being judgmental and dismissive. She felt that the ISTP was judging this woman negatively as a human being, rather than negatively due to her actions, because emotional language was used. Fi users often make this mistake.

    The kind of posts I've been seeing most recently seem likely to make the OP feel more confident in their negative opinion of Fe, due to her being condemned for her feelings on this matter. I consider this unfortunate, because she seemed to actually want to understand why the other woman acted the way she did. Many Fi users hold negative opinions of Fe, and never even give us a chance to explain our side of it.

    So, OP, I want to try and explain what's going on here. People are angry with you because they feel that you are devaluing the ISTP's attempt to help, and calling her lacking in compassion, simply because it wasn't done the way you would have done it. They are not understanding that you are actually most annoyed because of your perception that the ISTP was condemning not her actions, but the woman as a human being.

    I tried to explain in an earlier post that you may not have seen, that I believe the ISTP was merely using emotionally judgmental language in order to create sympathy for herself (and for the children's situation) and draw attention to what was going on, as she has found that emotional appeals and judgments tend to be more effective in getting attention and sympathy from most people than intellectual ones.

    In other words, I don't think that the ISTP intended to come across as devaluing the ISFP as a human being, but only to express her frustration and get sympathy. She may have sounded like she was condemning the person, but that's because we tend to identify the emotions with the ACTION, so what we really mean is that the actions appear uncaring, not that the person does. We don't know what the person is feeling, but the point being made seemed to be that the ISFP is performing poorly in her role as a mother, not that she's a bad person. Fi users tend to identify the emotion with the PERSON, so when we condemn the action as uncaring, it's assumed that we're condemning the person as uncaring, when that's not the case at all. We just want the person to start acting like how we believe that someone who cares should act.

    Does that make sense?

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