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  1. #491
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ that's because you place more value on the finished product, perhaps? I like sensing all the tones that make you ... you! All the internal notes as they compose and create a symphony of sound! (Was that too over the top lol!)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
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    When people see some things as good,
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  2. #492
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I wonder if this short term truth vs. long term truth is a bona fide Fe/Fi difference. I really like the way Jennifer explained it earlier in the thread. I really don't invest much in short term truths, immediate feelings always seem too transitory to me to pay much attention to. This- or something very similar- has come up before, and all I remember is that some other Fe'ers said something along similar lines.

    Granted- if someone else's expressed short term truths seem extreme to me, I'll definitely take note and find significance in it. But generally speaking, I don't put nearly as much weight on them as what's expressed after consideration.

    [edit:] Now that I think about it, I'm remembering PB saying once that she wanted to see what was 'really there' while interacting with someone- not the product of internal calculation, but just the raw person underneath it. The response that a couple of us gave is that whatever immediately lies below the surface doesn't really seem like 'me'. I identify with my finished ideas far more than I identify with the auto-pilot way of interacting with people as I'm getting to know them. If I interact more upon getting to know them- I don't really feel like I'm revealing 'myself' more so much as keeping up a hospitable mask until my ideas are ready to share. There isn't anything 'authentic' under the mask except my ideas, and I have a hard time understanding how that's different for others. Not sure what my point is, but it seems relevant.
    Z Buck McFate, I really identify with what you're saying here and I think you're on to something. If Fi-users are using the "inner essence" of a person as their reference point; and Fe-users are using the "outer essence" of a person as their reference point, it makes sense that there would be major differences in how criticism was given and received. Voila, a lot of the controversy on this thread.
    • Inner Essence. I read "inner essence" as that archetypal, almost ineffable, timeless quality that makes up a person. It is never just the sum of what someone says and does. These are ephemeral and just clues that lead you to knowing a person's inner essence. The "inner essence" includes all the unexpressed thoughts, feelings, and intentions of a person. This is what is of utmost concern to an Fi user.
    • Outer Essence. "Outer essence" (and please help me here Fe users) seems to be the sum of the outwardly expressed feelings, thoughts, and behaviors, of a person. It is concrete and quantifiable. People who pay most attention to the "outer essence" of a person aren't using behavior as clues revealing a person's "inner essence." It is the outwardly expressed behaviors that are foundational to making judgments about a person. Here it's not about "inner" and "outer." It's about "off the cuff" pronouncements versus "polished" statements. The latter is seen as the long-term truth about a person and is of utmost concern to the Fe user.

    ^^^^^^
    If I got this right, this is a major breakthrough in my understanding so I realllllly would love to hear other people's feedback.

    How This Applies To Giving & Receiving Criticism
    For me, an Fi-user, a criticism that attacks the "inner essence" of a person is the most pernicious and should only be done under the utmost extreme circumstances. Whether or not someone is "speaking off the cuff" versus presenting a "finished product" of their thought processes seems irrelevant to me.

    By the same token, the reverse seems true for Fe users. They don't divide criticism up as attacking someone's "inner essence" or "outer essence." They look to see if someone is letting off steam (aka "off the cuff") or if they are speaking after reflecting and thus presenting a "finished product."

    Case in point, take the subject of the original post where an ISTP woman was complaining about an ISFP woman. What really got my hackles up was that I felt like the ISTP was critiquing the "essence" of the ISFP. If the ISTP had just said, "She didn't clean up her room last week," this probably wouldn't have bothered me very much. But there was an implicit theme in her complaints that the ISFP was somehow a "bad" person. Even now I feel angry about such an injustice as I write these words.

    So I think Z Buck McFate brings up an excellent point about the different frames of reference for Fe and Fi.

    Note: Please forgive all the superfluous quotes. I was lazy in my writing style to use these even though I know they are grammatically incorrect.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  3. #493
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Regarding the inner/outer essence: I can see how an ENP might think the inner essence is something which is presented immediately and outer essence is presented afterward. I was close to an ENP for a while who always felt like answers which weren’t given right away were contrived, whereas immediate answers felt more like the truth. He couldn’t fathom there being an ‘inner essence’ which couldn’t be presented immediately. For him- the longer he sat on 'the truth' before presenting it, he noticed that it'd change a little to become more conducive to what others want to hear (he'd manipulate it without even knowing he was doing it). But it’s the opposite for me. I can only barely intuit what my innermost thoughts are on something- and it always takes me a while to articulate. For me, what I present immediately is ‘outer essence’, and can only present ‘inner essence’ once I’m given the opportunity to sort through it. That’s why it’s foreign to me, that someone could want the raw essence of what’s there immediately- I don’t perceive any immediate AND authentic raw essence to share- it doesn’t even begin to be possible for me to express it (unless it’s something I’ve already specifically reflected on). If I have to give an immediate answer, it's half-baked; I'll give people half-baked answers just to be participating in a conversation- but it never really feels like 'inner essence'.

    I’m not really sure where ENTPs (with Ti/Fe) fall on this spectrum (whether my ENP was T or F isn't certain)- but it would be interesting to hear, because it would somewhat clarify whether it’s primarily a Ti/Te difference or an overall I/E difference. My best guess is that the answer falls somewhere in the middle. It would be interesting to get different opinions from the different types about whether they feel/think 'inner essence' is something that can be tapped into immediately.

    In short: I disagree with Fi being more interested in ‘inner essence’ than Fe. Maybe if it were broken down more- meaning maybe there’s an ‘inner essence’ more specific to Feeling that Fi is interested in (and conversely, maybe there’s an ‘inner essence’ more specific to thinking that Ti is more interested in)- then I might agree.
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  4. #494
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Is "inner essence" what I would call "vibe?" I definitely get vibes about people. I can MBTI-type people pretty well sometimes because of their overall vibe, and I can tell when to stay away from people because of their vibe--whether they're trustworthy or not. Or is "inner essence" about a transient emotional state?
    Something Witty

  5. #495
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    i understand what EW means about Fi essence-searching... tallulah i think it's exactly about a vibe, though not a transient emotional state. it's more the "aura" of a person, to use a word i generally avoid, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate
    I disagree with Fi being more interested in ‘inner essence’ than Fe.
    i agree. EW i do resonate with you wrote in respect to Fi, though i also hesitate to imply that Fi is searching for something any more important than what Fe looks for... i think to FPs maybe because Fi often feels like our Truth, that might be right for us, but i'm not sure it can readily be applied to everyone... for instance Fi bypasses things important to Fe, like consistent behavior patterns, whereas Fe knows behavior tells us something about a person... i think NFJs figure that out via Ni... follow the pattern presented by Fe to figure out what it tells us about the person. certainly the NFJs i know are good at figuring people out, too, but they do it in a bit of a different way than i do. it's fascinating how a lot of times we come to very, very similar conclusions about people, though.

    it makes me think of the analogy of functions being likened to giant circular conveyor belts... you can flip the switch and it'll go clockwise or counter, but in general you're coming from the same place and going to the same place (which is how to deal with people).

    z buck i think i understand what you mean about an ENP looking for internal essence immediately... i guess he figures that the longer someone takes to externalize their "self", the more one compartmentalizes and polishes. i would hesitate to say that the first thing that comes out of my mouth is representative of myself either, though. in my experience with ENFPs it takes us a while to properly articulate too. maybe he is more skilled, or an ENTP, lol

    i'm trying to figure out where Fi goes to, i'm not really sure. probably mostly to values. when i first meet someone, i get an overall "feeling", and it's usually part of the truth, but not the whole thing by any means. with my best friend, when i first met her, she felt a little intimidating, charismatic, polished, walled-off. knowing her now, i can affirm that all of those primary intuitions are correct, but she has much more depth and complexity than that as well, and i would not call that her "essence". (FeNi is curious, it can throw up a curtain that prevents NeFi from seeing deeply inwardly. INTJs are much easier to see through, i suppose because their Fi is more superficial.)

    and then there's also more things i'm looking for, including what a person is really interested in. things that make me really happy are a light in people's eyes, whatever they get excited about, whatever they're passionate about... i think i'm searching for some kind of internal "spark" that makes that person who they are and who they want to be. NeFi also picks up on little emotional quirks, so we can get on the same page with someone in a bit of a different way than Fe. Fe seems to me like a beautiful dance between partners... one invites, the other acknowledges and invites back, then so on... Fi i dunno, it's like i shift into the other person's emotional state to help me see what they see and try to relate, which i suppose makes the person feel safe/understood and free to share more. or like i'm self-absorbed, one of two.


    z buck, tallulah, other non-Fis, is it similar when you guys are assessing a person?

  6. #496
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Z Buck McFate, I really identify with what you're saying here and I think you're on to something. If Fi-users are using the "inner essence" of a person as their reference point; and Fe-users are using the "outer essence" of a person as their reference point, it makes sense that there would be major differences in how criticism was given and received. Voila, a lot of the controversy on this thread.
    • Inner Essence. I read "inner essence" as that archetypal, almost ineffable, timeless quality that makes up a person. It is never just the sum of what someone says and does. These are ephemeral and just clues that lead you to knowing a person's inner essence. The "inner essence" includes all the unexpressed thoughts, feelings, and intentions of a person. This is what is of utmost concern to an Fi user.
    • Outer Essence. "Outer essence" (and please help me here Fe users) seems to be the sum of the outwardly expressed feelings, thoughts, and behaviors, of a person. It is concrete and quantifiable. People who pay most attention to the "outer essence" of a person aren't using behavior as clues revealing a person's "inner essence." It is the outwardly expressed behaviors that are foundational to making judgments about a person. Here it's not about "inner" and "outer." It's about "off the cuff" pronouncements versus "polished" statements. The latter is seen as the long-term truth about a person and is of utmost concern to the Fe user.

    ^^^^^^
    If I got this right, this is a major breakthrough in my understanding so I realllllly would love to hear other people's feedback.

    How This Applies To Giving & Receiving Criticism
    For me, an Fi-user, a criticism that attacks the "inner essence" of a person is the most pernicious and should only be done under the utmost extreme circumstances. Whether or not someone is "speaking off the cuff" versus presenting a "finished product" of their thought processes seems irrelevant to me.

    By the same token, the reverse seems true for Fe users. They don't divide criticism up as attacking someone's "inner essence" or "outer essence." They look to see if someone is letting off steam (aka "off the cuff") or if they are speaking after reflecting and thus presenting a "finished product."

    Case in point, take the subject of the original post where an ISTP woman was complaining about an ISFP woman. What really got my hackles up was that I felt like the ISTP was critiquing the "essence" of the ISFP. If the ISTP had just said, "She didn't clean up her room last week," this probably wouldn't have bothered me very much. But there was an implicit theme in her complaints that the ISFP was somehow a "bad" person. Even now I feel angry about such an injustice as I write these words.

    So I think Z Buck McFate brings up an excellent point about the different frames of reference for Fe and Fi.

    Note: Please forgive all the superfluous quotes. I was lazy in my writing style to use these even though I know they are grammatically incorrect.
    Any "essence" you detect about a person is always the sum of their behaviors, however brief, and however subconsciously detected. This distinction is completely bogus.
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  7. #497
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    OK so I've been trying to post here for days but what with the forum going down and my own internet problems, its been impossible.

    I just want to make something clear. I in no way identify with the sort of language Orobas used in her hypothetical situation to demonstrate her venting style. I say this not to undermine Orobas (she may be thinking of specific circumstances with additional motivators to make her react that way) but to stop any further being conclusions drawn from this with regards to Fi. I do not believe this is reflective of general Fi behaviour (even accounting for E/I differences). Several of you have really reacted strongly to the things she said and based some arguments around them. I feel the need to say this in case you all thought there was complete concurrence among Fi users.

    Even in the most extreme rage and frustration I have experienced, I have never hit that far below the belt. I do agree with what Skylights (?) said about the explosive nature of Fi anger, but I personally, lack the capacity for expressing such aggressive and vindictive language. This partly because its not really in my nature and I rarely lose control in that way, but also because when I'm that pissed off, usually I really struggle to find the words to effectively convey my feelings in the moment. I shout unpleasant things and wave my arms around but will have burnt out and/or stormed off, before I have gathered my thoughts enough to make such harsh personal insults (and by that time, I usually have regained enough self-possession and common sense to prevent me from actually saying them). I admit there have certainly been times when I have totally crossed the line and a rather harsh remark slipped out but I always immediately and deeply regret it. I am then overcome with shame, and it takes all the fight out of me.

    However, all of this is not even reflective of my venting style in general. I suppose it would resemble whinging to an Fe-er because I usually make it all about the annoyance I'm feeling, rather than attacking the character flaws I perceive in person causing that annoyance. Also I think it would take me a lot longer to start openly berating the person - my dislike of confrontation means I am more naturally inclined to be a doormat and for an unreasonable length of time

    Apologies for the interruption...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #498
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    skylights - I would agree that Fe uses Ni to interpret people. I definitely see behaviours as separate from the essence of who someone is (I think that under the right circumstances any of us could act in bad ways. Our habits and beliefs tend to shape what our default behaviour is, but they do not completely form them. Sometimes circumstances create emotions that make us behave in ways we know intellectually are negative, or that we are even personally against. We could ostensibly have the power to overcome these impulses, but it would require separating ourselves from our emotions to the extent that we can distance ourselves from the situations. It's just unlikely. That's why I think it's best to avoid getting into potentially bad situations in the first place, rather than trying to struggle out of them once you are ensnared).

    At the same time, looking for patterns in a person's behaviour definitely helps me to extrapolate what I can expect of them in the future. Sometimes when I vent about a person's frustrating behaviour, I am looking for information I may have missed within that pattern that would help me see things in a different light than I do so far. So for example, if I see consistently bad behaviour coming from someone, but it is tempered by the knowledge that they are young and that they have not had much for modelling that would help them to behave differently, I will cut them more slack.

    On the other hand, if after a period of time, they seem neither to be taking advantage of the benefits being offered, making attempts to improve negative behaviours, or seem to not be stepping up to the plate and taking some responsibility for the things no one else can affect but them, I will grow impatient with them. Am I attacking their inner essence? No, because if I were to witness a turnaround in their approach, I would also change mine. I don't believe they are inherently bad.

    On the other hand, at some point I will draw a line because I think it is kinder to them and because if they are not ready yet to use the resources available to them, there are other people who do need that help instead. My tendancy is to cut more slack than I should once I understand the contributing reasons. I've realized since that something can still be extremely dangerous and destructive even when it is logical. For the sake of all people involved, I believe it is important to act before all of the potential destruction that could be incurred has a chance to manifest itself. I think this allows me to remain kindly towards them (because they haven't taken anything irreplaceable away from me - it is all freely given), it makes them feel secure to know that there are solid lines and boundaries for them (that way they know what is a problem and what isn't), it reduces damage to other people, and it allows me to maintain a store of resources so that I still can care for my own needs and have some left over to give. I think it serves as a catalyst for action, if there are some good seeds in there that need to grow. It also is kinder to help the person reduce the amount of "mess" they will have to clean up at a later date with the people they have been involved with (preserves other people's regard and keeps permanent damage from happening).

  9. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    and then there's also more things i'm looking for, including what a person is really interested in. things that make me really happy are a light in people's eyes, whatever they get excited about, whatever they're passionate about... i think i'm searching for some kind of internal "spark" that makes that person who they are and who they want to be. NeFi also picks up on little emotional quirks, so we can get on the same page with someone in a bit of a different way than Fe. Fe seems to me like a beautiful dance between partners... one invites, the other acknowledges and invites back, then so on... Fi i dunno, it's like i shift into the other person's emotional state to help me see what they see and try to relate, which i suppose makes the person feel safe/understood and free to share more. or like i'm self-absorbed, one of two.


    z buck, tallulah, other non-Fis, is it similar when you guys are assessing a person?
    For me I dont try to find a spark, I more want to help someone achieve that spark despite those around them holding them back.

    Despite all the "T" stereotypes I try to connect mentally with people and see where they are thought wise. The "T" stereotype is typically very judgemental of others thoughts. To me Ti is judgemental of a thought in that it tries to work things out, critique, show different paths and extends beyond just being logical. Logic is used more to control thought, cause someone to not be able to argue based on reasoning. Control goes against understanding, you have to let go of control to understand. Its the same difference between drifting and say NASCAR where you dont want you wheels to lose grip. Its a different kind of control mixed with loss of control to provide a more fine tuned understanding.

    I am guessing Fe/Te doesnt really let things step into that realm of drifting...its to much of a loss of control...though they will drift with Ti/Fi.

    Fi is feelings as Ti is thought. I dont know what the equivalent analogy is in regard to T is logic as F is to ?. "?" cant be feeling as well if you want to properly define it. You have Thought/Reasoning/Logic. I believe that reasoning is present in both Ti and Fi, but I dont know nor have I heard the a word to complete Feeling/Reasoning/?. The ? I think is the key to help describe Fe better and maybe reasoning isnt the right word and there is a word parallel to Reasoning that works better with feelings.

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