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  1. #41
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Caring because you barely know a person is not magnanimity; caring in spite of what you know about a person is magnanimity.
    Exactly. It's safer to care from a distance because nothing splatters on you and you don't get dirty. It's get so much more complicated once you find out more about the situation and still try to be there.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  2. #42
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    if this family knew what would be said about them to others, would they have taken her offer? it seems like an unfair situation, to be offered a safe haven, but to have it become a theatre in which your failures are noted and broadcast behind your back. i assume that was not the church woman's intent, nor did it start out that way - it just progressively moved that way as she felt like her gift was more and more abused.

    and the church woman seems to have decided that it is her responsibility to take care of this family - as evidenced by her desire to continue checking in on them... but she has also clearly decided that there are boundaries to what she will do to help. certainly it is her right to not give any more than she wants to give, but it seems unfair to place the blame on the family for her choice to extend that gift of living space to them (after all, she offered; the family did not even ask). if she no longer wanted to extend her offer, that's her right, and it's appropriate to ask them to leave, but it is relatively unkind to give them a single week to make arrangements. i don't think anyone can deny that she was generous, but it came with so many strings attached...
    I think I view things a bit oppositely, but perhaps this is where a difference in Fe/Fi approach is truly there. If someone extended their home or help, I wouldn't for the life of me think that it would ever be on my terms, or that I was free to do what I wanted or dictate the nuances or terms of how it would play out. I would feel absolutely *horrible* NOT doing everything in my power to make sure I'm not inconveniencing the other person. Because in my mind, the other person is the one extending themselves by offering their help/service - so why in the world would I think I had the right to take that generous offer and then go about things the way I'd go about them? I'm in their space, so to speak, so I'll respect their personality / rules, and I wouldn't begrudge those or think they're harsh - because they have a right to have those, in their own space.

    Should they communicate the terms? Absolutely - and if they don't, it falls on them if things get messy because the communication never happened to begin with.

    But I don't really understand this concept of a 'safe haven' /no strings attached (or rather.. too many strings attached) thing. The offerer to me shouldn't be the one who bends to accommodate the accepter of the offer, since it's the offerer who's sacrificing some aspect of their life in the first place -- it's the accepter who should be flexing, and if the 'terms' of the offer are unacceptable to them, then they'll need to find another alternative.

    I mean, sure... some compassion and understanding are needed if the other person has trouble adjusting to things, so I think some sort of balance is needed and I'm not saying the giver/offerer should be miltant/rigid and such, but I'm more not understanding how someone could accept an offer of help and it not occur to them that they're in someone elses' space and therefore that means they can't just assume they can go their merry way as if they were still on their own.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Protean. Thank you for bring me back from the edge of a frothing Fi attack of insanity regarding orangey's post. Your suggestions are actually very reasonable and useful. Sorry orangey I was married to an ISTP for 8 years....it gave me the toughest skin you can get for an ENFP, not a drma queen by far, but your post was exceptionally offensive in many ways.

    When I help another I always do so with the expectation of never seeing the money again. I give them the gift of my trust. Seems damned stupid, but it works on other Fi users. Perhaps this is how we manipulate each other-via those expectations of honor and trust. Perhaps this is why the interaction style proposed by orangey strikes such a nerve in me. Innately you respect the other and you assume best intent. Your actions and forgiveness become the lesson that is passed on. Now this is all the pure Fi stuff and not realistic, so you round it out with some Te safe guards.

    Note I paid her bill...not just gave her cash. I actually live about 200 miles away so I cant directly influence this women's life on a daily basis. If I was closer I would actually write up lists, looks up forms, help her with budgets. I would point out things she could do to be a better parent in terms not of her failings or behind her back but in a very direct open way. I'd pick the most important lessons and focus on them-proper health care, financial responsibility, accountability, planning.

    If she used money to buy shoes? Well the first time she'd get a lecture. "Do you really care about your kids? Do you understand that you took money meant for their food and spent it on shoes? Do you understand that was wrong and not real clever? Do I need to explain why that was wrong and doesnt make any sense? Let me help you understand how to better spend your money and prioritize what is importan tnot simply what you like" Explanations and forgiveness would follow. If the pattern repeated, aid would stop. It seems real harsh, but if you keep offering help to someone who willfully chooses to not be accountable-after being educated-to keep helping is to enable them. They may need to suffer a bit of hardship to become self motivating.

    Some people dont learn...it does make me wonder if we didnt offer social systems of help and support-like welfare-would it force these people to become motivated themselves and learn accountability? (No values here, just thoughts) My sis represents the worst of the worst, and abuses social programs endlessly-because she has never been forced to hit bottom. This family-in spite of the issues-just seems ignorant and uneducated-like the woman Fidelia mentioned. They dont seem to abusive in the way my sister is, so I am loathe to assume the worst of them I suppose.

  4. #44
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I have 30 sec Orangey-but in bold above....That is your Ti...the couple NEEDS this Te

    EDIT: Um. Oh my god. I didnt get to finish reading the rest of your post before. Jesus Christ. Wow. Jesus Christ. It makes my skin crawl. The parts in bold especially. Jesus Christ Orangey.
    You know, if we're talking about personal feelings here, your condemnation of this woman makes my skin crawl.

    She's disgusted by this woman for not raising her kids in a healthy environment, and talking behind her back to you about her disgust (privately).

    You're disgusted by her for saying that this woman isn't raising her kids in a healthy environment, and talking behind her back to us about your digust (to everyone on the internet).

    How, exactly, do you have the moral high ground here???

    edit: I think it's really interesting that you're "loathe to assume the worst" about this isfp who has been shown to be irresponsible, neglectful etc but you're so very quick to assume dark motives for the woman who's been partially responsible for all this charity, helping the family improve their situation. It's almost like by being good to the family, she damns herself by raising your expectations for some reason....
    -end of thread-

  5. #45
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Sorry orangey I was married to an ISTP for 8 years....it gave me the toughest skin you can get for an ENFP, not a drma queen by far, but your post was exceptionally offensive in many ways.
    So what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    When I help another I always do so with the expectation of never seeing the money again. I give them the gift of my trust. Seems damned stupid, but it works on other Fi users. Perhaps this is how we manipulate each other-via those expectations of honor and trust. Perhaps this is why the interaction style proposed by orangey strikes such a nerve in me. Innately you respect the other and you assume best intent. Your actions and forgiveness become the lesson that is passed on. Now this is all the pure Fi stuff and not realistic, so you round it out with some Te safe guards.
    I have never proposed any interaction style. I've simply asked why respecting one's beneficiary is necessary for the act of giving to be considered valuable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Note I paid her bill...not just gave her cash. I actually live about 200 miles away so I cant directly influence this women's life on a daily basis. If I was closer I would actually write up lists, looks up forms, help her with budgets. I would point out things she could do to be a better parent in terms not of her failings or behind her back but in a very direct open way. I'd pick the most important lessons and focus on them-proper health care, financial responsibility, accountability, planning.
    No one said that you wouldn't help them more if you could. It's just been suggested that, until you've experienced being knee-deep helping this family, which you haven't, perhaps you should reserve judgment on the "ISTP" woman's venting/ranting.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I think I view things a bit oppositely, but perhaps this is where a difference in Fe/Fi approach is truly there. If someone extended their home or help, I wouldn't for the life of me think that it would ever be on my terms, or that I was free to do what I wanted or dictate the nuances or terms of how it would play out. I would feel absolutely *horrible* NOT doing everything in my power to make sure I'm not inconveniencing the other person. Because in my mind, the other person is the one extending themselves by offering their help/service - so why in the world would I think I had the right to take that generous offer and then go about things the way I'd go about them? I'm in their space, so to speak, so I'll respect their personality / rules, and I wouldn't begrudge those or think they're harsh - because they have a right to have those, in their own space.

    Should they communicate the terms? Absolutely - and if they don't, it falls on them if things get messy because the communication never happened to begin with.

    But I don't really understand this concept of a 'safe haven' /no strings attached (or rather.. too many strings attached) thing. The offerer to me shouldn't be the one who bends to accommodate the accepter of the offer, since it's the offerer who's sacrificing some aspect of their life in the first place -- it's the accepter who should be flexing, and if the 'terms' of the offer are unacceptable to them, then they'll need to find another alternative.

    I mean, sure... some compassion and understanding are needed if the other person has trouble adjusting to things, so I think some sort of balance is needed and I'm not saying the giver/offerer should be miltant/rigid and such, but I'm more not understanding how someone could accept an offer of help and it not occur to them that they're in someone elses' space and therefore that means they can't just assume they can go their merry way as if they were still on their own.
    Cascadco-I think you have some really awesome points I find myself agreeing with you-just differently.

    I think it is the same old symmetry that keeps popping up over and over again-Fe/Ti vs Te/Fi....I am afraid. On one hand it is annoying, but on another it depersonalizies the scenario so that it can be evaluated a bit more analytically I suppose.

    I expect the Fi part is the "no strings attached" which will be followed by Te obligations. Assuming it is an FP family. You can tell me what to do, but dont tell me how to feel or what I feel. The family seemed willing to comply-but they needed to have the requirements stated in a very direct way-a Te list of what the rules were and what expectations were required. The communication error you mentioned occurred. As Fidelia noted, a more organized outlined approach would have prevented much of the stress in the interaction.

  7. #47
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    When I help another I always do so with the expectation of never seeing the money again. I give them the gift of my trust. Seems damned stupid, but it works on other Fi users. Perhaps this is how we manipulate each other-via those expectations of honor and trust. Perhaps this is why the interaction style proposed by orangey strikes such a nerve in me. Innately you respect the other and you assume best intent. Your actions and forgiveness become the lesson that is passed on. Now this is all the pure Fi stuff and not realistic, so you round it out with some Te safe guards.
    This is why I thought you don't give homeless cash, you give them food or clothes because you don't know if they'll actually use the money for necessities.

    And I don't believe that when giving money to Fi users they automatically do the right thing with the money and buy necessities. This is what I'm saying about having some discernment...this does come across as naive to me. I'm sorry it does. I don't just give people money trusting that they'll do the right thing.

    I think it was last year a woman gave a homeless man her credit card to buy necessities for himself and he returned the card. The reason why it made the news is because it's a rarity. I decided to look up this woman a little more and found out that she was a marketing executive who made good money. She could have canceled the card at any time, claimed it was stolen, and wouldn't have to pay a dime. I wondered to myself, wow, did this woman really put herself out on a limb to help this man? It doesn't negate the good she did, but to me it did cast a shadow on her benevolence. I get it, why you would question the sincerity of someone's generosity based on what your MIL said. This is where I start balancing and weighing what really matters.

    If you think it's hypocritical to help someone and be critical of them would it be better for the help not to be given at all?

    Note I paid her bill...not just gave her cash. I actually live about 200 miles away so I cant directly influence this women's life on a daily basis. If I was closer I would actually write up lists, looks up forms, help her with budgets. I would point out things she could do to be a better parent in terms not of her failings or behind her back but in a very direct open way. I'd pick the most important lessons and focus on them-proper health care, financial responsibility, accountability, planning.
    What does you being 200 miles away have to do with this? We're in the 21st century, distance doesn't matter. I'm sorry if I come across as niggling and harsh but I feel like if you really wanted to help, you would and could. You castigate and demonize the ISTP and her Fe but you're not even in the hot zone. Get her a prepaid phone and ask if she's available to talk once a week or every two weeks. Ask if she has access to a library and public computers and hence the internet. You can create an excel document with a basic budget and put it on Google Docs to share with her. You can walk her through it, ask her to plug in whatever income and expenses she has. You can send her to websites that she can plug the numbers in to figure out her expenses like this http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...et.aspx?vv=900.

    You being 200 miles away is imaginary. At the very least, I'm almost positive she would welcome a listening ear to talk to, someone to at least share her hardships with and encouragement that she can get through this. Can you at least offer this?

    Are you willing to go that far? Is that too much work for you or too involved? This is getting your hands dirty. You don't need to feel the warm fuzzies towards this woman to do this.

    If she used money to buy shoes? Well the first time she'd get a lecture. "Do you really care about your kids? Do you understand that you took money meant for their food and spent it on shoes? Do you understand that was wrong and not real clever? Do I need to explain why that was wrong and doesnt make any sense? Let me help you understand how to better spend your money and prioritize what is importan tnot simply what you like" Explanations and forgiveness would follow. If the pattern repeated, aid would stop. It seems real harsh, but if you keep offering help to someone who willfully chooses to not be accountable-after being educated-to keep helping is to enable them. They may need to suffer a bit of hardship to become self motivating.
    Agree with this.

    Some people dont learn...it does make me wonder if we didnt offer social systems of help and support-like welfare-would it force these people to become motivated themselves and learn accountability? (No values here, just thoughts) My sis represents the worst of the worst, and abuses social programs endlessly-because she has never been forced to hit bottom. This family-in spite of the issues-just seems ignorant and uneducated-like the woman Fidelia mentioned. They dont seem to abusive in the way my sister is, so I am loathe to assume the worst of them I suppose.
    Agree again. How do you distinguish abusers from those who have fallen simply fallen on hard times or those ignorant of basic life skills? But that's not what you said in your OP, and I don't know how much detail you have into the situation once again seeing from afar is different from being in the situation yourself.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #48
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Everything Orangey, proteanmix, and cascadeco said.

    At this point it all boils down to "doing." Are you, OP, going to get serious about helping the ISFP and her family in some fundamental ways? If not, I think it would be wise to just live and let live.
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  9. #49
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Third, why is it necessary, in the first place, for the ISTP lady to respect the ISFP lady in order to give her aid? Why is that an expectation of her giving? One can maintain civil interaction without sharing mutual respect, and respect is something that has to be earned anyway. So why, especially given the description of the ISFP lady's ignorance, should the ISTP lady respect her? What has she done to earn it?
    This is one of the key areas where I've observed Fe/Ti and Te/Fi to conflict. "Respect" appears means something very different for each.

    The Fe/Ti version appears to align with notions of being credentialed, trustworthy, of having to earn status/position much as one earns money.

    The Te/Fi version appears to be more subjective, that "respect" isn't something "earned by others," but rather an attitude that one inculcates in oneself. One respects life, one respects others as human beings, one respects others' rights. That respect is much as Jesus described love, that one should love one's enemies, not just one's friends and family.

    Notice how this relates to F being introverted or extroverted. When extroverted, "respect" is a seemingly objective value that is earned or lost based on one's interactions with other people. When introverted, it is about one's own attitude toward the world. These observations are why I see what appears to be a typological pattern.

    These are two very different usages of the word. The Fe/Ti usage equates "respect" with admiration and esteem. The Te/Fi usage doesn't exclude admiration or esteem, but also includes the more neutral "human decency" version of respect, an acknowledgment that others are different, and that even if one doesn't like the other person, there are still boundaries that one doesn't cross.

    Also interesting is how these two understandings handle "disrespect." The "admiration" version of respect seems to think it's OK to be disrespectful (to whatever socially acceptable degree) to those who haven't earned respect, yet. The "human decency" version of respect appears to reserve disrespect for those who have "earned" disrespect - those who appear to be unrepentently bad in whatever regard one is measuring respect.

    Even if there is no real typological link to Te/Fi and Fe/Ti, it's still helpful to note that one should listen for which version of respect is being used, because the consequences and values implied by each are rather different.
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  10. #50
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    These are two very different usages of the word. The Fe/Ti usage equates "respect" with admiration and esteem. The Te/Fi usage doesn't exclude admiration or esteem, but also includes the more neutral "human decency" version of respect, an acknowledgment that others are different, and that even if one doesn't like the other person, there are still boundaries that one doesn't cross.

    Also interesting is how these two understandings handle "disrespect." The "admiration" version of respect seems to think it's OK to be disrespectful (to whatever socially acceptable degree) to those who haven't earned respect, yet. The "human decency" version of respect appears to reserve disrespect for those who have "earned" disrespect - those who appear to be unrepentently bad in whatever regard one is measuring respect.
    The two bolded things stand out as incorrect, at least for me. One can still observe the common civilities required by casual interaction without sharing mutual respect, as I said before. This means that there is (1) a common level of civility (or social show of respect) that is observed independent of one's level of felt respect for the other, and (2) that because of (1), it is not okay to act disrespectful because you personally do not feel that you respect someone.
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