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  1. #481
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Fe is in the default position to believe itself "right" as does Te.
    It is? Do you mean only Fe dom/aux users or the function in "isolation"? Theoretically everyone in the world is either a Fe user or a Te user. Well, I'd say everyone in the world believes themselves to be "right" to some degree, too. Even while accepting that there isn't always a right viewpoint, or that there are multiple right viewpoints.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    (Fascinatingly, telling another person that someone else's kids run around like dogs is not seen in the same light, yet to me they are kinda the same, stricly examining the language.)
    Telling someone their kids ARE dogs would be somewhat equivalent (although it wouldn't make much sense and doesn't have as negative connotations as parasite IMO...I mean, dogs are adorable. People keep them as pets, love them and take care of them...).

    Telling someone their kids ACT like dogs is more like telling someone "borrowing money and not paying it back is parasitic and disgusting". VERY VERY VERY different from saying "you are a disgusting parasite". Very.
    -end of thread-

  2. #482
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    You know, I think it's hilarious we've generated close to a half-thousand-post thread over someone's alleged behavior who probably wasn't thinking one thing or another when she merely did a brain dump of what she was feeling and had no clue that 20-30 people would be dissecting her words with a fine-tooth comb on a forum she had no clue even existed at the time.

    She probably picked a lot of the words she chose simply because it's what came to mind at the time and it's what came out of her mouth. No deeper meaning than that. It's a little different than someone planning what they are going to say on a web forum, writing it out, and then having the opportunity to edit/correct their ideas and choosing not to. I tend to see the written word as more representative of interior beliefs than the spoken word because of the possibility of self-correction.

    Written commentary is premeditated, and I tend to be harder on it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #483
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i was in a sorority full of FJs for three and a half years in college. yes, seriously. i have watched this in action. i have been pulled aside by girls who aren't even that close to me to talk about someone else for the sake of "protecting" me from them. of protecting the group from that person. it might be closing them out of the group for the sake of protecting the group, but it is ostracizing nonetheless. it is hurtful and confusing nonetheless. so yes, seriously.

    i'm not saying either one is more guilty. in some ways doing it without intent is worse.
    Okay, I think I figured out at least part of the reason why you keep making nasty junior highschool caliber generalizations about Fe users. But it's kind of like putting an ax in the hands of a raging psychopath- then blaming the ax for what happens, and forgetting to mention ‘well, it was in the hands of a raging psychopath at the time’. Yes, I just compared Fe in sorority girls to an ax in the hands of a rampaging, psychotic serial killer. Putting an ax is anyone else's hand is actually quite useful, more often than not.

    I’ll have to get back to the rest.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #484
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I am not in the right frame of mind to be extremely precise atm, but dog has as many negative connotations as parasite. Really. You can look it up ... feral, unruly - why is this the point of contention - I am willing to put them even-steven with each other.

    Anyhoo, to clarify I meant Fe / Te dom / aux.

    I think my ESTJ hubs says it best: "Who doesn't think they are right?" See, I don't think I'm right, I just think I should have at least an even shot at saying my opinion, and having it respected as such, whether one agrees with it or not.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #485
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    lol guys no don't think badly of sororities!! being in a sorority was actually amazing, i loved it, i grew so much from it. i wish you could see the difference between scared shy high school me and happy blooming college me. the sorority taught me how to be confident around my peers and consistently devoted to my friends even when they frustrate me. and my two closest friends in the world, both from my sorority, are ESFJ and ENFJ. they are both truly kind, generous, wonderful people. most people in the sorority were - there were usually just about 4 girls who really stirred things up... let me think... ESFP, ESFP, ESFJ, ExFJ. the FJs were generally the ones who would spread information intentionally. the FPs would generally just say stupid things aloud, and gossip would carry - though there was one really mindblowing incident of an ISFP totally intentionally backstabbing her best friend.

    z buck -- i love FJs and i know there's nothing better than a little Fe love. maybe it was a little too quick to say that immature Fe intentionally backstabs, though i think there are many instances of immature Fe users backstabbing. whether that is an effect of Fe or not, i don't know. obviously for the ISFP it wasn't a factor. i just think FJs tend to think through all their actions more than FPs, for good or for bad, which is what made me say that. i am sorry if it came off insulting. it wasn't meant to be. it's just what i feel like i've experienced IRL. i could be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    And yes, despite our differences, it would be wise to see each other in as kindly way as possible in these discussions. to you skylights, I know you are getting frustrated and you are doing a great job in here trying to present your POV. I hear you.
    thank you PB

    i think you make a very good point about Fe/Te coming from the "i am right (until shown otherwise)" perspective... i need to try to step in Te shoes to look at Fe! because when i am like that with Te, i feel like i just think that way because it's fastest and most convenient, not because i really think i am all that right. i need to give Fe users the benefit of the doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity
    Why do you think I'm talking about you? I mentioned the parasite thing because it was mentioned earlier in the thread by an Fi user (not you I think?) and Fi-ers seemed to think it would be more reasonable to say something like that to someone's face than behind their back. Am I mistaken in that.... because if I am this whole conversation is just a waste of time isn't it?

    Can you really make reasonable comparisons without having the same thing be said to someone's face vs. behind their back? I made up my "bitch" example to be a more moderate example of something that would plausibly be said to someone's face.

    Again, I agree with you that there's value in telling people calmly why you're upset with them, although there are many potential pitfalls to consider as well (most of which can be avoided, though).
    ohh haha sorry!! yeahh actually the "you" i was using along with your quote wasn't really meant directed at you either, sorry :blushing: it was more directed at all Fe users in general. i don't really think you believe that otherwise you probably wouldn't bother to discuss... Ti users are smart like that, lol

    your bitch example is more reasonable. i could see myself, if i was quite frustrated, saying that to someone. and i am in agreement with you that it's really a bad idea overall... possibly worse than saying it behind their back. yay the FP is learning FJ basics, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah
    I appreciate your efforts, skylights. And the tone of what we're saying is probably come across harsher than the way we're intending it. This is the kind of thing we have to do for things to start to make sense. I think both sides are kind of doing a "BUT DON"T YOU SEE???" thing. But I think we're both also learning about why the other side does what it does.
    yeah i think so too

    i do really appreciate all of you guys participating, even if i get upset or we are debating or having opposite opinions or anything like that. i really like you even if i get frustrated sometimes.

    i wish we knew an easier way of bypassing all this mess to get to the understanding!

  6. #486
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    I've been going around with the phrase vent pie stuck in my head for the past hour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Situation: Person A tells person B "person C is being a real bitch today!"
    Situation: Person A tells person C "you're being a real bitch today!"
    Randomnity, I appreciate your examples, but they are off point from what I was saying in my post.

    There's a major difference between these two situations:

    Situation A: Person A tells person B "Person C is being a real bitch today!"
    Situation B: Person A tells person B "Person C is has a real problem relating to other people and controlling her anger. Watch out if you wind up having to work with her!"

    Both could be called venting. And, Situation A is probably pretty harmless. But, I've had 20 years of adult experience seeing IMMATURE Fe engage in Situation B kinds of behaviors. (And none of this "bad Fe" was in a sorority.) It is this kind of pernicious venting to which I was referring. It is needlessly hurtful and doesn't help anyone involved.

    [And just to clarify, I'm talking about Fe expressed by immature people... Of course I'm not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with Fe. Situation B is an example of Fe at its worst. Most Fe users I know are wonderful, kind, thoughtful people.]
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  7. #487
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I've been going around with the phrase vent pie stuck in my head for the past hour.



    Randomnity, I appreciate your examples, but they are off point from what I was saying in my post.

    There's a major difference between these two situations:

    Situation A: Person A tells person B "Person C is being a real bitch today!"
    Situation B: Person A tells person B "Person C is has a real problem relating to other people and controlling her anger. Watch out if you wind up having to work with her!"

    Both could be called venting. And, Situation A is probably pretty harmless. But, I've had 20 years of adult experience seeing IMMATURE Fe engage in Situation B kinds of behaviors. (And none of this "bad Fe" was in a sorority.) It is this kind of pernicious venting to which I was referring. It is needlessly hurtful and doesn't help anyone involved.

    [And just to clarify, I'm talking about Fe expressed by immature people... Of course I'm not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with Fe. Situation B is an example of Fe at its worst. Most Fe users I know are wonderful, kind, thoughtful people.]
    First, why do you think situation B is so much worse than situation A?

    Second, I don't think this has anything to do with Fe or Fi. My (very much) ESFP sister makes nasty, definitive statements about people all the time, often without any greater provocation than that "she looked like a bitch." Of course, she changes her mind at the drop of hat, so these judgments are not often permanent. But she will not hesitate to vent in the most defamatory way possible when she feels like it. The only thing is that, when she really feels worked up, she'll even have the gall to verbalize her judgments to the person's face (at which point I'm thinking .)
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #488
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I tend to see the written word as more representative of interior beliefs than the spoken word because of the possibility of self-correction.

    Written commentary is premeditated, and I tend to be harder on it.
    Ha, that's funny, I see the spoken word (plus all the feel-ery data that comes in with it IRL) as being truer because it is unvarnished and more representative of interior realities. I am not as effective with the written stuff without editing and re-editing and it tires me out fierce to make some of these posts flow and be as cogent as I visualize / conceptualize them in my mind.

    Interesting!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #489

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    I see the spoken word as being more telling. More information, tone, body language and all that. So much more information.

  10. #490
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I wonder if this short term truth vs. long term truth is a bona fide Fe/Fi difference. I really like the way Jennifer explained it earlier in the thread. I really don't invest much in short term truths, immediate feelings always seem too transitory to me to pay much attention to. This- or something very similar- has come up before, and all I remember is that some other Fe'ers said something along similar lines.

    Granted- if someone else's expressed short term truths seem extreme to me, I'll definitely take note and find significance in it. But generally speaking, I don't put nearly as much weight on them as what's expressed after consideration.


    [edit:] Now that I think about it, I'm remembering PB saying once that she wanted to see what was 'really there' while interacting with someone- not the product of internal calculation, but just the raw person underneath it. The response that a couple of us gave is that whatever immediately lies below the surface doesn't really seem like 'me'. I identify with my finished ideas far more than I identify with the auto-pilot way of interacting with people as I'm getting to know them. If I interact more upon getting to know them- I don't really feel like I'm revealing 'myself' more so much as keeping up a hospitable mask until my ideas are ready to share. There isn't anything 'authentic' under the mask except my ideas, and I have a hard time understanding how that's different for others. Not sure what my point is, but it seems relevant.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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