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  1. #471
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    hey thanks for the explanation, that makes sense

    anyway to clarify... two things --

    1) way more likely than "you're being a real bitch today" is "why do you keep saying things like that?"

    it occurs to me that probably most of yall haven't argued with an ENFP before, lol. to explain, those kinds of words aren't likely to appear as an opening. it's not until much deeper in argument, when you're feeling hurt and defensive, that wording like that could come out.

    and i would not call this venting at all, actually. it's emotional release, yes, but it's with the implicit understanding that the emotion will be communicated. there is no sense, as there appears to be in venting, that it will just dissipate into the universe; we know it will impact the other person. but with another ENFP - or an INTJ, they are good at this - our emotional communication is understood to be just that. emotional communication.

    that's the other thing i was thinking about, how very feeling-nuanced that kind of wording is. i don't know if i've mentioned in this thread, but my INTP dad and i have discussed how, in argument, i need to listen more to his exact words and he needs to listen more to my tone. i find communicating in very precise wording (in speech, at least, i am much better in writing) difficult, but tonalities easy. apparently it is the opposite for him - he is very good at choosing the exact right words, but he has a hard time seeing the emotional nuances in his language (he can be yelling at me and say that he is perfectly calm).

    what's important in that wording is not the meaning at all, it's the emotion. and that's probably why it doesn't seem like such a big deal for someone to call me a bitch or an asshole, or whatever, in argument, because i know the emotions aren't what they really think, or how they mean to affect me. whereas when dad is yelling at me and telling me he's calm, the logical conclusion i draw from that is he must be intending to hurt me, since if he's unemotional, that anger is coming from a deeper place of hate or disgust.


    2) "Several people have been careful to point that out, that this is a very different situation from say, telling a room ful of people when person C is out of the room" - right, just like confronting someone about a hurtful behavior is very different from just running up to them and calling them an asshole for no reason. the whole point in confronting someone is to stop the hurting. it's just more efficient and direct than bouncing off of others, waiting, analyzing whether your opinion is valuable... i mean, that whole time you're venting, that person could be hurting more and more people.



    yeah, that's probably immature Fi. whereas grabbing the next person and bitching about someone else with intent to ostracize them would be immature Fe.

    though - again, same thing, from our side of the story: you don't just run up to your best friend and call her scum. that's confronting 101. we don't do this willy-nilly either.

    THIS IS SRS BSNS

    it's funny because from my "native" perspective, venting doesn't solve anything; it just creates additional issues, while confronting helps solve a potential problem. from yours, confronting doesn't solve anything; it just creates additional issues, while venting helps solve a problem.

    i guess the middle we need to hit is like what EW was saying... vent only when really necessary to close, trusted friends, while addressing someone when we think it's important in a calm, open way.
    I agree that the best thing in an ideal world is to calmly talk about conflicts with someone when there's an issue, in the case where there's an actual issue and it's not just personality conflicts/differing opinions or grumpy days. I'm not sure what "confronting" is for you, though. If it's emotional and full of value judgments like "you're a parasite", this "confrontation" will absolutely go over poorly with me. I won't appreciate it, I certainly will think poorly of you for it, and it will probably harm or destroy our friendship. If it's a rational complaint (and brought up in a calm tone of voice without namecalling) like "that really hurt my feelings because X" or "people will tend to think X is rude, you know", that is a totally different situation.

    I compared similar things being said to a close friend (i.e. behind someone's back) vs to their face because that's what we were talking about, I thought. Like members have said previously, things like calling people "parasites" or saying "you're not being a good friend", to someone's face.

    Not whether venting is harmless (again I agree, it's not, although I think we strongly disagree on the magnitude of the "harm") or whether venting should be restricted to private situations with close friends (again, I agree).

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well, let's circle back then. To all: Did you think the ISTP MIL was venting or bitching?

    PB's Recipe for Venting:
    Ingredient 1: trusted confidante? - yes, O is likely in the circle of priviledge
    Ingredient 2: venter attempting to sort out own feelings with the vent? - I will say no, sounded more set than unsure to me
    Ingredient 3: venter attempting to enact a new course of action after venting? again no, sounded more like a need for justification of current actions
    Ingredient 4: venter thanks ventee for listening, knowing the imposition? - not sure

    So to me, it seems more like bitching ... we don't have the right ingredients to make a vent pie.

    Did the ISTP MIL breach the guidelines of Venting Protocol?
    A) what's the difference? I use these two words interchangeably.

    B) I don't see your "ingredients" 2-4 as being necessary at all for something to be venting. More of side benefits or partial reasons. For me almost the entire purpose (and benefit) of venting is to get emotions and anger out from rattling around in my brain and making me irrational. As a result I'm likely to increase my capacity for dealing politely with the person I'm venting about.

    You don't actually sound like you're talking about venting at all. You sound like you're talking about talking things through seriously with a friend (for help making decisions), which is very different emotionally, at least for me.
    -end of thread-

  2. #472
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    The whole reason it's called "venting" is because it allows the negative emotions to be let out without building up to a pressure explosion, or with harm to another person. If someone's venting bothers you, it's very easy to cut it off - just say "yeah, but I like that guy/girl. He/she's a good person. I'm not going to say anything bad about him/her. Cut 'em a break this time."

  3. #473
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well, let's circle back then. To all: Did you think the ISTP MIL was venting or bitching?
    Honestly, my immediate response to reading the op is that there isn't enough information for me to make a guess. If O were to tell me the story in person, I'd probably throw a bunch of questions at her. The question has come up about the difference between venting for-the-sake-of-clarity and venting with ill intent. The only way I can tell the difference, really, is if I've know the person for a while. I mean I can make an initial guess based on the body language of the person- but it's all about consistency to me. If they are usually a benevolent person, and the venting usually leads to more benevolent behavior- it's just a temporary release of pent up frustration- then I'll always assume that's what it is when it's happening. But if I see a person 'venting' to gain any social favor or simply trying to make someone look bad out of jealousy, or whatever ill intended reason, then that's what I'll always assume about his/her 'venting'. As far as the op- I really don't have enough information to have a personal opinion one way or the other.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #474
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I'm glad someone else pointed this out first. I find it almost amazing that the argument keeps coming back to how detrimental ‘venting’ can be, as if all venting is done carelessly- no matter how hard anyone tries explaining that we personally only do it with people we trust.
    but don't you see, this is happening from the other side too?!?

    how many times have i tried to explain that the point of confronting someone is positive, to help, not to harm? how many times have i tried to point out that the language you guys use is just as harmful to us as the language we use to you? how many times have comments like "god if that's what it means to be a Fi user, i'm glad i'm not one" come up? you feel attacked but so i! i find it incredible that yall aren't trying to suspend the belief that Fi users aren't batshit emotional crazy for 5 seconds to be willing to consider our perspective as a whole before shooting it down, point by point. the reason i keep responding is because the Fi side keeps getting put down as if it's worse!

    i mean look at this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I agree that the best thing in an ideal world is to calmly talk about conflicts with someone when there's an issue, in the case where there's an actual issue and it's not just personality conflicts/differing opinions or grumpy days. I'm not sure what "confronting" is for you, though. If it's emotional and full of value judgments like "you're a parasite", this "confrontation" will absolutely go over poorly with me. I won't appreciate it, I certainly will think poorly of you for it, and it will probably harm or destroy our friendship.
    do you really think i'm that awful of a person? you really think i go running up to people close to me without considering if my opinion is even reasonable, to tell them what a piece of shit i think they are?

    the reason i have described venting in such a negative light is because our side of things keeps getting described from a ridiculously negative light. i'm trying to bring things back to a place of even balance. yes, confrontation can be awful and wrong and hurtful and stupid. so can venting! but most of us don't act that way because most of us are totally kind, decent people. and even when people do act that way, there's usually a reason for it.

    skylights- I'm sorry, but.. seriously?
    i was in a sorority full of FJs for three and a half years in college. yes, seriously. i have watched this in action. i have been pulled aside by girls who aren't even that close to me to talk about someone else for the sake of "protecting" me from them. of protecting the group from that person. it might be closing them out of the group for the sake of protecting the group, but it is ostracizing nonetheless. it is hurtful and confusing nonetheless. so yes, seriously.

    i'm not saying either one is more guilty. in some ways doing it without intent is worse.

    it's just so ridiculous how you guys are seeing so easily from your perspective and keep shooting the ones FPs talk about down as if it's mindblowingly awful and unreasonable. why can't we just operate on the assumption that we all are decent, flawed people? that we always have reasonable explanations for our actions, even if they aren't very good reasons in one anothers' eyes?

    arghhhh

  5. #475
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Gothcha all and thanks ... as an fyi too: I just popped that little "recipe" out of my head, not cast in stone or anything. I would love it if someone made some actual guidelines, I think it would be interesting!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #476
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    do you really think i'm that awful of a person? you really think i go running up to people close to me without considering if my opinion is even reasonable, to tell them what a piece of shit i think they are?
    Why do you think I'm talking about you? I mentioned the parasite thing because it was mentioned earlier in the thread by an Fi user (not you I think?) and Fi-ers seemed to think it would be more reasonable to say something like that to someone's face than behind their back. Am I mistaken in that.... because if I am this whole conversation is just a waste of time isn't it?

    Can you really make reasonable comparisons without having the same thing be said to someone's face vs. behind their back? I made up my "bitch" example to be a more moderate example of something that would plausibly be said to someone's face.

    Again, I agree with you that there's value in telling people calmly why you're upset with them, although there are many potential pitfalls to consider as well (most of which can be avoided, though).

    yes, confrontation can be awful and wrong and hurtful and stupid. so can venting! but most of us don't act that way because most of us are totally kind, decent people. and even when people do act that way, there's usually a reason for it.
    I agree.

    i was in a sorority full of FJs for three and a half years in college. yes, seriously. i have watched this in action. i have been pulled aside by girls who aren't even that close to me to talk about someone else for the sake of "protecting" me from them. of protecting the group from that person. so yes, seriously. i'm not saying either one is more guilty. i mean, in some ways doing it without intent is worse.
    I believe this is the relevant part, not the FJ part. That sounds truly horrible.

    edit: in my earlier post I was using the general "you", it wasn't intended to be you, skylights. Sorry if that's the source of the confusion. Replace all the "you"s with "one" if you like, it's just a little more formal.
    -end of thread-

  7. #477
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well, let's circle back then. To all: Did you think the ISTP MIL was venting or bitching?

    PB's Recipe for Venting:
    Ingredient 1: trusted confidante? - yes, O is likely in the circle of priviledge
    Ingredient 2: venter attempting to sort out own feelings with the vent? - I will say no, sounded more set than unsure to me
    Ingredient 3: venter attempting to enact a new course of action after venting? again no, sounded more like a need for justification of current actions
    Ingredient 4: venter thanks ventee for listening, knowing the imposition? - not sure

    So to me, it seems more like bitching ... we don't have the right ingredients to make a vent pie.

    Did the ISTP MIL breach the guidelines of Venting Protocol?
    Here are my ingredients:

    1. Trusted confidante?
    2. Emotions simply that of frustration, or of true animosity? If former, likely venting; if latter, likely malice.
    3. Venter tones down the hostility toward the object of venting afterwards? (this is the part that might slip up some of y'all Fi-people. Part of the venting process is that by getting the emotions out, I can look at the actual complaints I have. Often, they're not nearly as severe as I originally made them out to be. When that's the case, the person is forgiven, and I go back to being nice toward them. To you, this may look like I'm being "fake" or two-faced.)
    4. Venter definitely has to thank the other person for listening, and apologize for the burden. This is just social dancing; usually, the other person doesn't feel burdened at all. It feels good to help your friend when they're down.

  8. #478
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    but don't you see, this is happening from the other side too?!?
    how many times have i tried to explain that the point of confronting someone is positive, to help, not to harm? how many times have i tried to point out that the language you guys use is just as harmful to us as the language we use to you? how many times have comments like "god if that's what it means to be a Fi user, i'm glad i'm not one" come up? you feel attacked but so i! i find it incredible that yall aren't trying to suspend the belief that Fi users aren't batshit emotional crazy for 5 seconds to be willing to consider our perspective as a whole before shooting it down, point by point. the reason i keep responding is because the Fi side keeps getting put down as if it's worse!
    You make valid points skylights. I think the Ti need for precision has really latched on to the words - what I would consider the 99.9% percentile of extreme behaviour to tell someone they are a parasite. (Fascinatingly, telling another person that someone else's kids run around like dogs is not seen in the same light, yet to me they are kinda the same, stricly examining the language.) So language isn't the only thing here. Yet both have potential to do a world of hurt. It's why personally, I try to do neither. Since that's not always realistic, we pick our confidantes, Fe and Fi both, with extreme caution, lest we cause damage. Not everyone uses that discretion, and some of it only comes with age and wisdom.

    This is looking more and more to me about how Fe and Fi tackle criticism. Need to think more, but maybe I will start a thread on this later.

    the reason i have described venting in such a negative light is because our side of things keeps getting described from a ridiculously negative light. i'm trying to bring things back to a place of even balance. yes, confrontation can be awful and wrong and hurtful and stupid. so can venting! but most of us don't act that way because most of us are totally kind, decent people. and even when people do act that way, there's usually a reason for it.
    Fe is in the default position to believe itself "right" as does Te. So for Fi, this is an unwinnable argument in many ways. The world is full of Fe and Te doms and aux’s ... who all believe they are basically correct, and operate with and from that confidence.

    And yes, despite our differences, it would be wise to see each other in as kindly way as possible in these discussions. to you skylights, I know you are getting frustrated and you are doing a great job in here trying to present your POV. I hear you.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #479
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Here are my ingredients:

    1. Trusted confidante?
    2. Emotions simply that of frustration, or of true animosity? If former, likely venting; if latter, likely malice.
    3. Venter tones down the hostility toward the object of venting afterwards? (this is the part that might slip up some of y'all Fi-people. Part of the venting process is that by getting the emotions out, I can look at the actual complaints I have. Often, they're not nearly as severe as I originally made them out to be. When that's the case, the person is forgiven, and I go back to being nice toward them. To you, this may look like I'm being "fake" or two-faced.)
    4. Venter definitely has to thank the other person for listening, and apologize for the burden. This is just social dancing; usually, the other person doesn't feel burdened at all. It feels good to help your friend when they're down.
    I like this. This sounds accurate.

    I appreciate your efforts, skylights. And the tone of what we're saying is probably come across harsher than the way we're intending it. This is the kind of thing we have to do for things to start to make sense. I think both sides are kind of doing a "BUT DON"T YOU SEE???" thing. But I think we're both also learning about why the other side does what it does.
    Something Witty

  10. #480
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You make valid points skylights. I think the Ti need for precision has really latched on to the words - what I would consider the 99.9% percentile of extreme behaviour to tell someone they are a parasite. (Fascinatingly, telling another person that someone else's kids run around like dogs is not seen in the same light, yet to me they are kinda the same, stricly examining the language.)
    Dogs running around evoke wildness, impulsivity, and noise. Parasites suck the life out of another without consent. That's more than just a semantic difference.

    That may be another place of disconnect - comparisons to non-human things aren't necessarily meant to be dehumanizing. Often, they're just for imagery. Of course, this is highly dependent on the comparison being made, and the context of the comment. For example, if I were to tell a woman that she was excited like a little puppy, would that necessarily be offensive? However, if I were to compare her to an adult dog, or in particular, an adult female dog, that would almost always be offensive.

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