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  1. #461
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Words are not in and of themselves bad. It's what they do. So if I say nasty things about another person to my wall, I'm not really doing anything wrong. No harm is being done in the world.
    though they still have insidious effects... what you say about the other person reinforces that belief in your mind, and it immediately creates associations in others' minds. i don't disagree that sometimes the effect is quite negligible, but at the same time, i don't think that they just slip away with no effect.

    Yes. Why wouldn't you?
    because when i talk to someone else, it's usually at a point where i've really thought a lot about my feelings, and they're more polished and solidified than they were at first.
    i also try to present things in a neutral light to the other person so that they can offer unbiased opinions on the situation. and it's a more comfortable situation than argument, so i don't expect the person to be thrown off by anger, fear, etc. they're in a place where they can analyze and make calm decisions.

    It seems to me that people generally do not "put it all out there" to others. Perhaps there are a few exceptions, but I tend to assume that whatever is said to my face is only a portion of what is truly felt or thought. Society wouldn't be nearly as functional if that were not the case, non?
    yeah, totally. and Fi is really live-and-let-live in general -- until a major principle is being violated (eg do not harm others).

    I'm a bit confused here, as I don't remember anybody saying that expressing exaggerations in anger is more wrong than expressing them while venting. I said it's a form of piety because, if the other person is not being directly harmed by your words, then the only thing stopping you from saying them is your own feelings of guilt.
    ah, i misunderstood. i think this is back to the insidious effects, for me. i worry that the person could be indirectly hurt.

    Personally, I would not care to know. I tend to think that others' complaints about me are more their problem than mine, so as long as they keep it to themselves, I have no reason to fret about it. Of course, if I'm behaving in such a way as to cause social dysfunction (which is unlikely because I'm usually very aware, if not of my behavior, then at least to other people's reactions to it), it is in everyone's interest to let me know, but I don't want to hear about it in a big burst of anger. If the person is that angry that they can't control themselves, I'd rather they cool off before speaking to me and THEN tell me in a rational manner. I can honestly think of no circumstances in which language like "you're scum" is called for in direct confrontation. In fact, I think that kind of thing might well qualify as fighting words.
    well it's not like i go up to people at random and start yelling at them! this is like last-resort frustrated, desperate, i-can't-get-through-to-you responding. sometimes i may say something a bit harsh ("that was really uncalled for", etc), but i would hardly use that kind of language off the bat, if at all. ideally you'll try to deal with a person rationally and in a friendly manner before confronting them, and even then i think "you're scum" is a very, very intense example.

    i did once tell a Fe dom that she was being a bad friend, and she didn't speak to me for days. i didn't really get it... still kind of don't. she was being a pretty bad friend at the time, honestly. but she took that as like "you are, will be, and have always been a terrible friend", which totally isn't what i said. then i had to apologize to her about a billion times for her to even talk to me again. it was very frustrating. i felt like she'd played me.

    It's the same with saying things to other people's faces. If I find someone utterly repugnant, it does not behoove me to blow up in their face saying things like "you're scum, you're a parasite." If anything, that will simply cause them to react in kind (potentially leading to violence), and whatever true message I may have had will be lost in the mode of delivery.
    no one ever said it was brilliant

    To say that everyone has a right to their own opinion does not mean that all opinions are of equal value. I try to make sure that when I do act outwardly, I have a better foundation for my opinion than simply that it's my right to have one. Part of that involves, of course, measuring my opinion against those of others.
    our functions might have something to do with this... because i extravert with Ne - primarily collect information from my external environment - i usually don't second guess my opinions very much. i spend a lot more time looking at information than i do making judgments about it, so when i do make a judgment, it's usually a pretty well-evidenced once (as you can often hear in the Te evidence i present if i am "presenting my case"). not to say i think my opinion is perfect, but that because i usually hold off a long time on making judgment calls, i think they tend to be fairly well refined. so the foundation for the argument does come from outside of me, thus i generally feel like it's justified (if i didn't, i would still be info-collecting).

    i see what you said - everyone has a right to their own opinion does not mean that all opinions are of equal value - play out with my close ENFJ friend too. she has certain people to whom she goes for advice, and is fairly closed about it. she does not tend to listen to certain people when she is after information - she doesn't trust them.

    It's funny, I think quite the opposite. It's much better, from my perspective, to dispel any excess anger in a place where it has no consequences than to just throw it out there whenever I feel like it, even to the person's face. It seems like you think the utterance of mean things is more excusable if it's in the heat of confrontation, since the person will likely not be in control of their emotions; I tend to think, however, that it's less excusable, since the consequences will be far greater for you and the other person if angry words are exchanged during confrontation than in any other scenario. So where you view third-party venting as underhanded and deceitful, I see it as a more responsible way to treat excessive feelings.
    yeah, i see your points. it makes sense when you put it that way, even though it seems weird to me. i do still feel like there are quiet consequences to private venting. and yes, i think that because Fi can create such an emotional firestorm, it's easy to sympathize with someone who is clouded with anger. i understand what it's like to be there... it's scary. it feels awful. it's very hard to act rationally at all, it's kind of a miracle it's even possible. unfortunately the flip side of being able to delve into hearts is that you can't escape your own.

    This is a nice concept I guess, but I think that in reality it's quite naive. You're never going to escape hurt feelings and resentment once you've said something that rubs the other person the wrong way (or they've done so to you, especially if you're a sensitive person), no matter how much you both may have agreed that whatever is said in this "contained space" doesn't "count." If anything, you're just going to fuel one another's feelings of aggression. Thus if venting is necessary, then it's best if it's done in a place where it really is "safe," such as to a close friend.
    well, the idea that you can say a bunch of negative things about someone to another person and not expect your ventee to become biased against the 3rd person is really kind of naive too. lots of Fe users turn lots of people against one another, intentionally or not, and that causes a lot of pain too.

    but it's true, an argument like that can be very harmful. i had this revelation when i was arguing with a Fe dom friend at one point. we were yelling about something i don't even remember, but essentially i felt like she was totally ignoring me while i was in a painful situation, and she didn't realize, and i eventually asked her what i had done wrong to cause her to shut me out, and it all went downhill from there. that's the same time i ended up calling her a bad friend. the argument ended with her just saying she couldn't take anymore, and going down the hall and slamming her door at me. about half an hour later i asked if she wanted to talk, and she seemed scandalized, and told me i had to be kidding, she wouldn't be getting over it that quickly. i was very hurt by that... waiting half an hour to talk had felt like FOREVER to me. as it turned out, i basically just sat in my room and freaked out about how to fix our friendship for the rest of the day. i didn't understand what i had done so wrong... our words became heated but we were at least addressing the weird tension that had arisen between us at the time.

    hours later, i knocked on her door, and she said it would be okay to talk even though she really didn't like me (?!), and it became obvious that my words meant WAY more to her than i meant them to. she had read implications that just weren't there... took "you're being a bad friend" to mean i never thought she was a good friend, that i didn't like her, that i didn't respect her, and all this ridiculous stuff that i definitely did not mean. i explained to her how the way she spoke made me feel (hurt - she is a bit of an emotionally distant person, she will make you think she likes you, but then suddenly throw up a big cold wall), and she explained how hurt i made her feel too, because she felt totally attacked. i know no arguments are pleasant, but i had no idea that the feeling was so intense for her. we've had a few little scuffles since, but tend to catch ourselves and tell each other when we're being jerks. hopefully we'll never go through anything like that again.

  2. #462
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    But that's why there's a difference between deliberately talking behind people's backs as a means to ostracize and simply venting. The latter shares neither the intent nor consequences with the former, and is thus not to be evaluated on the same level.

    Also, if you know that someone doesn't like you (whether they've said it to your face or not), don't you already assume that they probably tell others anyway? If someone has the nerve to blow up in my face and call me "scum," I'm going to assume that they abuse me with equal or greater vitriol behind my back. Thus if someone is ONLY talking behind my back there's at least a chance that I won't even know about it (in which case why would I ever give a crap?) This piety about "never talking badly behind people's backs regardless of the circumstances in which it happens" therefore really only serves the self.
    Orangey, I say respectfully that I just couldn't disagree with you more here.

    While it is certainly your right to "not give a crap" if someone complains about you to a third party unbeknownst to you, this does not mean that such complaining has no consequences for you. Such complaining can hurt social standing and negatively affect personal relationships.

    So while venting / complaining / badmouthing may or may not be done with malice, what seems really immoral to me is when the complainer doesn't take into account the fallout this may bring on the person about whom they are complaining. Not everyone has the ethical maturity to not let someone else's venting affect their opinions about someone.

    So let's say you were complaining about me to a mutual acquaintance. Say you told them you thought I was a selfish person and that I couldn't be trusted. Would this prevent the mutual acquaintance from ever speaking to me again? Probably not. In the best case scenario that information would be filed away and possibly used to judge my behavior more harshly in the future. In the worst case scenario, that mutual acquaintance would allow your judgment to be a substitute their own judgment. In other words, I may have done nothing to them, but they will assume I'm guilty of being selfish and untrustworthy until I prove to them I'm not.

    ^^^^^
    In the above scenario, you may have been just wanting to vent and blow off steam. But you've created negative consequences for me. It's hard for me to understand how this dynamic could not be judged as harmful and morally wrong. And if this potentiality to hurting my reputation exists based on you publicly stating your negative feelings for me, you're damn right I'd want to know about it.

    Furthermore, your intentions don't really change the moral wrongness of your actions. Not understanding how venting could negatively affect me is a sin of omission... but it's still a sin. At what point should you be held accountable for hurting me, even if you didn't think any harm would come of it?

    While not every venting / complaining / b*tch session results in negative consequences, that doesn't make it a harmless activity either. The fact of the matter is that it MIGHT hurt me. It seems unwise and immoral to engage in behavior that might hurt someone else.

    We all vent to other people. But we need to be mindful of the power of our words to hurt other people, as well. Thus, doesn't it seem the best course of action to limit one's public venting to a select few, close, inner circle friends? Doesn't it seem best to have an acute awareness of for the harmful potentialities for the things we say?
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  3. #463
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Orangey, I say respectfully that I just couldn't disagree with you more here.

    While it is certainly your right to "not give a crap" if someone complains about you to a third party unbeknownst to you, this does not mean that such complaining has no consequences for you. Such complaining can hurt social standing and negatively affect personal relationships.

    So while venting / complaining / badmouthing may or may not be done with malice, what seems really immoral to me is when the complainer doesn't take into account the fallout this may bring on the person about whom they are complaining. Not everyone has the ethical maturity to not let someone else's venting affect their opinions about someone.

    So let's say you were complaining about me to a mutual acquaintance. Say you told them you thought I was a selfish person and that I couldn't be trusted. Would this prevent the mutual acquaintance from ever speaking to me again? Probably not. In the best case scenario that information would be filed away and possibly used to judge my behavior more harshly in the future. In the worst case scenario, that mutual acquaintance would allow your judgment to be a substitute their own judgment. In other words, I may have done nothing to them, but they will assume I'm guilty of being selfish and untrustworthy until I prove to them I'm not.

    ^^^^^
    In the above scenario, you may have been just wanting to vent and blow off steam. But you've created negative consequences for me. It's hard for me to understand how this dynamic could not be judged as harmful and morally wrong. And if this potentiality to hurting my reputation exists based on you publicly stating your negative feelings for me, you're damn right I'd want to know about it.

    Furthermore, your intentions don't really change the moral wrongness of your actions. Not understanding how venting could negatively affect me is a sin of omission... but it's still a sin. At what point should you be held accountable for hurting me, even if you didn't think any harm would come of it?

    While not every venting / complaining / b*tch session results in negative consequences, that doesn't make it a harmless activity either. The fact of the matter is that it MIGHT hurt me. It seems unwise and immoral to engage in behavior that might hurt someone else.

    We all vent to other people. But we need to be mindful of the power of our words to hurt other people, as well. Thus, doesn't it seem the best course of action to limit one's public venting to a select few, close, inner circle friends? Doesn't it seem best to have an acute awareness of for the harmful potentialities for the things we say?
    Do you really think so?

    Situation: Person A tells person B "person C is being a real bitch today!"

    Best (realistic) case scenario: Person B is extra-nice to person C today reasoning that she's probably having a bad day. Person C has no idea why but is grateful. Person B forgets all about it the next day because everyone is a bitch sometimes.

    Worst (realistic) case scenario: Person B thinks that Person A thinks person C is a bitch. Person B stays out of person C's way that day to avoid her bad mood. Person B might tell other people, repeating the pattern.

    Situation: Person A tells person C "you're being a real bitch today!"

    Best case scenario: person C pretends she isn't hurt but it makes her mood worse for the rest of the day and she gets even more bitchy.
    Worst case scenario: Person C gets into a huge, emotional fight with person A.Names are exchanged. Person C goes home thinking that everyone at the office hates her and cries herself to sleep.

    Yes, venting "MIGHT" hurt person C, if it gets back to her. Nobody is saying that venting is an angelic act. However, "venting" directly to person C will absolutely, 100% of the time, hurt person C.

    Obviously the perfect scenario is that nobody says bad things about anyone to anyone, nobody loses their temper, nobody is passive aggressive and nobody gets hurt (and legitimate concerns are aired directly to the person in private, sensitively, rationally and calmly without name-calling). However, I don't think perfect people exist, even among Fi users.

    We all vent to other people. But we need to be mindful of the power of our words to hurt other people, as well. Thus, doesn't it seem the best course of action to limit one's public venting to a select few, close, inner circle friends? Doesn't it seem best to have an acute awareness of for the harmful potentialities for the things we say?
    Well....yes, obviously!! Of course!! This is actually exactly what the non-Fi users are talking about when we say "venting". Several people have been careful to point that out, that this is a very different situation from say, telling a room ful of people when person C is out of the room. Does that clarify things?
    -end of thread-

  4. #464
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench
    We all vent to other people. But we need to be mindful of the power of our words to hurt other people, as well. Thus, doesn't it seem the best course of action to limit one's public venting to a select few, close, inner circle friends? Doesn't it seem best to have an acute awareness of for the harmful potentialities for the things we say?
    Welcome to every post the Fe/non-Fi-ers have made in this thread. I think I personally have stressed about a thousand times that you choose carefully whom you vent to. I think some of the Fi-ers are imagining all Fe-ers just vent willy-nilly to whomever is around, spreading their unfiltered, unfair opinions like dandelion seeds everywhere they go. We choose very carefully whom we vent to, because 1) we don't want the person listening to misjudge our intentions and think ill of us, and 2) we don't want the person spreading the things we're saying to other people. That's like Venting 101. If someone you know is just grabbing the next person and bitching about someone else with no thought to the consequences, that's not Fe venting to understand. That's something else entirely.
    Something Witty

  5. #465
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Situation: Person A tells person C "you're being a real bitch today!"

    Best case scenario: person C pretends she isn't hurt but it makes her mood worse for the rest of the day and she gets even more bitchy.
    Worst case scenario: Person C gets into a huge, emotional fight with person A.Names are exchanged. Person C goes home thinking that everyone at the office hates her and cries herself to sleep.

    Yes, venting "MIGHT" hurt person C, if it gets back to her. Nobody is saying that venting is an angelic act. However, "venting" directly to person C will absolutely, 100% of the time, hurt person C.

    [...]

    Well....yes, obviously!! Of course!! This is actually exactly what the non-Fi users are talking about when we say "venting". Several people have been careful to point that out, that this is a very different situation from say, telling a room ful of people when person C is out of the room. Does that clarify things?
    hey thanks for the explanation, that makes sense

    anyway to clarify... two things --

    1) way more likely than "you're being a real bitch today" is "why do you keep saying things like that?"

    it occurs to me that probably most of yall haven't argued with an ENFP before, lol. to explain, those kinds of words aren't likely to appear as an opening. it's not until much deeper in argument, when you're feeling hurt and defensive, that wording like that could come out.

    and i would not call this venting at all, actually. it's emotional release, yes, but it's with the implicit understanding that the emotion will be communicated. there is no sense, as there appears to be in venting, that it will just dissipate into the universe; we know it will impact the other person. but with another ENFP - or an INTJ, they are good at this - our emotional communication is understood to be just that. emotional communication.

    that's the other thing i was thinking about, how very feeling-nuanced that kind of wording is. i don't know if i've mentioned in this thread, but my INTP dad and i have discussed how, in argument, i need to listen more to his exact words and he needs to listen more to my tone. i find communicating in very precise wording (in speech, at least, i am much better in writing) difficult, but tonalities easy. apparently it is the opposite for him - he is very good at choosing the exact right words, but he has a hard time seeing the emotional nuances in his language (he can be yelling at me and say that he is perfectly calm).

    what's important in that wording is not the meaning at all, it's the emotion. and that's probably why it doesn't seem like such a big deal for someone to call me a bitch or an asshole, or whatever, in argument, because i know the emotions aren't what they really think, or how they mean to affect me. whereas when dad is yelling at me and telling me he's calm, the logical conclusion i draw from that is he must be intending to hurt me, since if he's unemotional, that anger is coming from a deeper place of hate or disgust.


    2) "Several people have been careful to point that out, that this is a very different situation from say, telling a room ful of people when person C is out of the room" - right, just like confronting someone about a hurtful behavior is very different from just running up to them and calling them an asshole for no reason. the whole point in confronting someone is to stop the hurting. it's just more efficient and direct than bouncing off of others, waiting, analyzing whether your opinion is valuable... i mean, that whole time you're venting, that person could be hurting more and more people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah
    If someone you know is just grabbing the next person and bitching about someone else with no thought to the consequences, that's not Fe venting to understand. That's something else entirely.
    yeah, that's probably immature Fi. whereas grabbing the next person and bitching about someone else with intent to ostracize them would be immature Fe.

    though - again, same thing, from our side of the story: you don't just run up to your best friend and call her scum. that's confronting 101. we don't do this willy-nilly either.

    THIS IS SRS BSNS

    it's funny because from my "native" perspective, venting doesn't solve anything; it just creates additional issues, while confronting helps solve a potential problem. from yours, confronting doesn't solve anything; it just creates additional issues, while venting helps solve a problem.

    i guess the middle we need to hit is like what EW was saying... vent only when really necessary to close, trusted friends, while addressing someone when we think it's important in a calm, open way.

  6. #466
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Well, let's circle back then. To all: Did you think the ISTP MIL was venting or bitching?

    PB's Recipe for Venting:
    Ingredient 1: trusted confidante? - yes, O is likely in the circle of priviledge
    Ingredient 2: venter attempting to sort out own feelings with the vent? - I will say no, sounded more set than unsure to me
    Ingredient 3: venter attempting to enact a new course of action after venting? again no, sounded more like a need for justification of current actions
    Ingredient 4: venter thanks ventee for listening, knowing the imposition? - not sure

    So to me, it seems more like bitching ... we don't have the right ingredients to make a vent pie.

    Did the ISTP MIL breach the guidelines of Venting Protocol?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  7. #467
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well, let's circle back then. To all: Did you think the ISTP MIL was venting or bitching?
    Wait, what's the difference?
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    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well, let's circle back then. To all: Did you think the ISTP MIL was venting or bitching?

    PB's Recipe for Venting:
    Ingredient 1: trusted confidante? - yes, O is likely in the circle of priviledge
    Ingredient 2: venter attempting to sort out own feelings with the vent? - I will say no, sounded more set than unsure to me
    Ingredient 3: venter attempting to enact a new course of action after venting? again no, sounded more like a need for justification of current actions
    Ingredient 4: venter thanks ventee for listening, knowing the imposition? - not sure

    So to me, it seems more like bitching ... we don't have the right ingredients to make a vent pie.

    Did the ISTP MIL breach the guidelines of Venting Protocol?
    I'm not sure that's a foolproof system, though. I can think of times when I outwardly might not seem like I'm following those steps, but I'm reaching some sort of internal change of perspective. And if we've learned anything from this thread, it's that Fi-ers won't always know if that's happening for the Fe-er who's venting, either, because it will all sound like bitching. I can tell by the tone and nature of the conversation, plus my relationship with the person, if it's venting.

    I should say, too, if I'm venting, and I can feel you evaluating the way I'm venting and trying to steer it in the way YOU would like it to go, I'm going to get frustrated and find someone else to vent to. There really aren't "rules for successful venting." The person who's venting gets to steer, and you get to add perspective and suggest things when needed. Otherwise, you're better off just asking them not to vent to you at all.
    Something Witty

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    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Welcome to every post the Fe/non-Fi-ers have made in this thread. I think I personally have stressed about a thousand times that you choose carefully whom you vent to. I think some of the Fi-ers are imagining all Fe-ers just vent willy-nilly to whomever is around, spreading their unfiltered, unfair opinions like dandelion seeds everywhere they go. We choose very carefully whom we vent to, because 1) we don't want the person listening to misjudge our intentions and think ill of us, and 2) we don't want the person spreading the things we're saying to other people. That's like Venting 101. If someone you know is just grabbing the next person and bitching about someone else with no thought to the consequences, that's not Fe venting to understand. That's something else entirely.
    I'm glad someone else pointed this out first. I find it almost amazing that the argument keeps coming back to how detrimental ‘venting’ can be, as if all venting is done carelessly- no matter how hard anyone tries explaining that we personally only do it with people we trust. Just out of curiosity, I'm guessing we can agree at least that it isn't morally questionable if the third party is a licensed therapist- but what if the therapist is a Fe'er? Should Fe'ers be allowed, by law, to help others guide their own judgment as licensed counselors in the first place? Or should they only be allowed to help other Fe'ers?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    yeah, that's probably immature Fi. whereas grabbing the next person and bitching about someone else with intent to ostracize them would be immature Fe.
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  10. #470
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    I haven't read all of this thread but it sure is interesting.

    I don't understand the purpose in venting...I guess I don't understand why someone wouldn't go to the person they had an issue with and straighten it out.

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