because when i talk to someone else, it's usually at a point where i've really thought a lot about my feelings, and they're more polished and solidified than they were at first.Yes. Why wouldn't you?
i also try to present things in a neutral light to the other person so that they can offer unbiased opinions on the situation. and it's a more comfortable situation than argument, so i don't expect the person to be thrown off by anger, fear, etc. they're in a place where they can analyze and make calm decisions.
yeah, totally. and Fi is really live-and-let-live in general -- until a major principle is being violated (eg do not harm others).It seems to me that people generally do not "put it all out there" to others. Perhaps there are a few exceptions, but I tend to assume that whatever is said to my face is only a portion of what is truly felt or thought. Society wouldn't be nearly as functional if that were not the case, non?
ah, i misunderstood. i think this is back to the insidious effects, for me. i worry that the person could be indirectly hurt.I'm a bit confused here, as I don't remember anybody saying that expressing exaggerations in anger is more wrong than expressing them while venting. I said it's a form of piety because, if the other person is not being directly harmed by your words, then the only thing stopping you from saying them is your own feelings of guilt.
well it's not like i go up to people at random and start yelling at them! this is like last-resort frustrated, desperate, i-can't-get-through-to-you responding. sometimes i may say something a bit harsh ("that was really uncalled for", etc), but i would hardly use that kind of language off the bat, if at all. ideally you'll try to deal with a person rationally and in a friendly manner before confronting them, and even then i think "you're scum" is a very, very intense example.Personally, I would not care to know. I tend to think that others' complaints about me are more their problem than mine, so as long as they keep it to themselves, I have no reason to fret about it. Of course, if I'm behaving in such a way as to cause social dysfunction (which is unlikely because I'm usually very aware, if not of my behavior, then at least to other people's reactions to it), it is in everyone's interest to let me know, but I don't want to hear about it in a big burst of anger. If the person is that angry that they can't control themselves, I'd rather they cool off before speaking to me and THEN tell me in a rational manner. I can honestly think of no circumstances in which language like "you're scum" is called for in direct confrontation. In fact, I think that kind of thing might well qualify as fighting words.
i did once tell a Fe dom that she was being a bad friend, and she didn't speak to me for days. i didn't really get it... still kind of don't. she was being a pretty bad friend at the time, honestly. but she took that as like "you are, will be, and have always been a terrible friend", which totally isn't what i said. then i had to apologize to her about a billion times for her to even talk to me again. it was very frustrating. i felt like she'd played me.
no one ever said it was brilliantIt's the same with saying things to other people's faces. If I find someone utterly repugnant, it does not behoove me to blow up in their face saying things like "you're scum, you're a parasite." If anything, that will simply cause them to react in kind (potentially leading to violence), and whatever true message I may have had will be lost in the mode of delivery.
our functions might have something to do with this... because i extravert with Ne - primarily collect information from my external environment - i usually don't second guess my opinions very much. i spend a lot more time looking at information than i do making judgments about it, so when i do make a judgment, it's usually a pretty well-evidenced once (as you can often hear in the Te evidence i present if i am "presenting my case"). not to say i think my opinion is perfect, but that because i usually hold off a long time on making judgment calls, i think they tend to be fairly well refined. so the foundation for the argument does come from outside of me, thus i generally feel like it's justified (if i didn't, i would still be info-collecting).To say that everyone has a right to their own opinion does not mean that all opinions are of equal value. I try to make sure that when I do act outwardly, I have a better foundation for my opinion than simply that it's my right to have one. Part of that involves, of course, measuring my opinion against those of others.
i see what you said - everyone has a right to their own opinion does not mean that all opinions are of equal value - play out with my close ENFJ friend too. she has certain people to whom she goes for advice, and is fairly closed about it. she does not tend to listen to certain people when she is after information - she doesn't trust them.
yeah, i see your points. it makes sense when you put it that way, even though it seems weird to me. i do still feel like there are quiet consequences to private venting. and yes, i think that because Fi can create such an emotional firestorm, it's easy to sympathize with someone who is clouded with anger. i understand what it's like to be there... it's scary. it feels awful. it's very hard to act rationally at all, it's kind of a miracle it's even possible. unfortunately the flip side of being able to delve into hearts is that you can't escape your own.It's funny, I think quite the opposite. It's much better, from my perspective, to dispel any excess anger in a place where it has no consequences than to just throw it out there whenever I feel like it, even to the person's face. It seems like you think the utterance of mean things is more excusable if it's in the heat of confrontation, since the person will likely not be in control of their emotions; I tend to think, however, that it's less excusable, since the consequences will be far greater for you and the other person if angry words are exchanged during confrontation than in any other scenario. So where you view third-party venting as underhanded and deceitful, I see it as a more responsible way to treat excessive feelings.
well, the idea that you can say a bunch of negative things about someone to another person and not expect your ventee to become biased against the 3rd person is really kind of naive too. lots of Fe users turn lots of people against one another, intentionally or not, and that causes a lot of pain too.This is a nice concept I guess, but I think that in reality it's quite naive. You're never going to escape hurt feelings and resentment once you've said something that rubs the other person the wrong way (or they've done so to you, especially if you're a sensitive person), no matter how much you both may have agreed that whatever is said in this "contained space" doesn't "count." If anything, you're just going to fuel one another's feelings of aggression. Thus if venting is necessary, then it's best if it's done in a place where it really is "safe," such as to a close friend.
but it's true, an argument like that can be very harmful. i had this revelation when i was arguing with a Fe dom friend at one point. we were yelling about something i don't even remember, but essentially i felt like she was totally ignoring me while i was in a painful situation, and she didn't realize, and i eventually asked her what i had done wrong to cause her to shut me out, and it all went downhill from there. that's the same time i ended up calling her a bad friend. the argument ended with her just saying she couldn't take anymore, and going down the hall and slamming her door at me. about half an hour later i asked if she wanted to talk, and she seemed scandalized, and told me i had to be kidding, she wouldn't be getting over it that quickly. i was very hurt by that... waiting half an hour to talk had felt like FOREVER to me. as it turned out, i basically just sat in my room and freaked out about how to fix our friendship for the rest of the day. i didn't understand what i had done so wrong... our words became heated but we were at least addressing the weird tension that had arisen between us at the time.
hours later, i knocked on her door, and she said it would be okay to talk even though she really didn't like me (?!), and it became obvious that my words meant WAY more to her than i meant them to. she had read implications that just weren't there... took "you're being a bad friend" to mean i never thought she was a good friend, that i didn't like her, that i didn't respect her, and all this ridiculous stuff that i definitely did not mean. i explained to her how the way she spoke made me feel (hurt - she is a bit of an emotionally distant person, she will make you think she likes you, but then suddenly throw up a big cold wall), and she explained how hurt i made her feel too, because she felt totally attacked. i know no arguments are pleasant, but i had no idea that the feeling was so intense for her. we've had a few little scuffles since, but tend to catch ourselves and tell each other when we're being jerks. hopefully we'll never go through anything like that again.