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  1. #451
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    however - it's better, from the Fi perspective, because she would be hurt and insulted if she knew what you were saying about her to other people. you're not just being mean, you're being mean and deceiving.

    and how convenient for you if she never hears about it! you can say all the mean things you want to all the time, and never suffer any consequences. that doesn't make it okay or right to say those things.

    well, i don't really agree with the 100% scum thing. i'd say i would not say these things until it is clear to me that the person is without a doubt hurting other people (myself included), and shows no likelihood of stopping unless i intervene. so what i'm saying that sometimes i say things in the heat of argument that are exaggerated. i don't know if this is true for INFPs as well - it seems to be more characteristic of ENFPs, i think it's a bad Te/Fi synthesis thing.

    actually, look how they're metaphors, in a way - it's difficult, when you're heated, to communicate "you are living off the work of someone else and not contributing, and i find that very hurtful to me because it is hurting myself, others, and yourself, and you need to realize this", and much easier to use the proxy: you're a parasite. it's faster. i want to be done with this argument asap, not draw it on for hours. the more concise, the better. and still, i don't find any of those statements nearly as cruel as talking behind someone's back. because if the statement is true, then it's true, and if it's not, then it's not, and it's really sort of irrelevant what i think. if someone calls me a parasite, and i think that's not true, i will tell them why not. and that is between me and them. people have dumb ideas about others all the time, it's usually because we have a hard time seeing one another's point of view. but you bring it up to them, and then it's addressed. they get to shoot it down for the dumb statement that it is.

    i mean, outside of the context of argument, that statement is almost funny. you're a parasite! your mom's a parasite.


    and then compare that 3rd-grade-level statement with telling your coworker that a mutual acquaintance is scum. that creates such huge bias. you're influencing others' opinion of another person when the other person is not there to defend themselves. do it with more than one person and essentially you're creating a gang. it's like secretive warfare, building up your ammo while you pretend like you're allies. we call that kind of fighting dirty for a reason. it's based in lying.

    what i see as "cruel" is a situation in which you're kicking someone who's down - you've already won and you're just rubbing it in because you can. and that's exactly what speaking behind someone's back does. they're completely defenseless, and you're just kicking them until the other person says "hey maybe that's a bad idea". there's no self-control, it's entirely contingent on the other person. this is why Fe fucks up so badly sometimes, because a whole group of people could agree that kicking someone is a-okay as long as no one has any objections to it.

    so basically Fe lies to ensure a situation in which they can safely attack someone and the other person has no means of fighting back without essentially committing social suicide.

    yet Fi is cruel?
    But that's why there's a difference between deliberately talking behind people's backs as a means to ostracize and simply venting. The latter shares neither the intent nor consequences with the former, and is thus not to be evaluated on the same level.

    Also, if you know that someone doesn't like you (whether they've said it to your face or not), don't you already assume that they probably tell others anyway? If someone has the nerve to blow up in my face and call me "scum," I'm going to assume that they abuse me with equal or greater vitriol behind my back. Thus if someone is ONLY talking behind my back there's at least a chance that I won't even know about it (in which case why would I ever give a crap?) This piety about "never talking badly behind people's backs regardless of the circumstances in which it happens" therefore really only serves the self.
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  2. #452
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    But that's why there's a difference between deliberately talking behind people's backs as a means to ostracize and simply venting. The latter shares neither the intent nor consequences with the former, and is thus not to be evaluated on the same level.
    This is a good distinction. With the former.... I'm thinking of malicious office gossip, or junior high/high school cliques/talk. And goodness... Fi-er's were/are just as guilty as Fe'ers in those scenarios. It's awful. THAT sort of stuff isn't the venting being discussed in this thread.

    Well, at least that's not what I do when I vent - I'm never outright saying that a person sucks or they're rotten/useless to their core (lol), I'm usually venting because I am either confused and frustrated, or else it's because I have to work/be involved with the person in some capacity, even though I don't want to be, and therefore will vent on the situation itself or why *I* have issues working with them. As has been already mentioned in here, sometimes this could be to calibrate off of someone else, and get input, other times if I know it's just one of those things and they're who they are, I'm who I am, and nothing's going to change things, then it can be more of a release/purge mechanism for me. Keep in mind, though, if I ever had any actual things to say to the person that would improve things, ormake the relationship work more smoothly, I'd communicate that. It's just more of what I'll call the 'irreconcilable' personality conflicts - just that recognition that we're very different, but still need to work with each other - that might be where pure venting/release to a trusted friend would come in.

    Venting typically has an origin in frustration with interpersonal dynamics, and/or tangible external impacts to environment/ your own situation as a result of the other persons' behavior; gossip/mudslinging is actually denigrating or mocking someone elses' core self/character.
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  3. #453
    Senior Member Neutralpov's Avatar
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    I have been trying to read this thread to learn more but this is the second time reading it I just exit and find myself angry or frustrated from the back and forth here or something. Harumph!

    Heather- Leaving thread and walking down hall at work with small storm cloud over her head now. :yim_phbbbbt:

  4. #454
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    This is what I'd typed yesterday right before the forum went down:


    But how is "you're a parasite" okay, and "she lets her kids run around like dogs" cruel? In the first situation, you're actually being directly compared to an offensive thing. In the second, it's the behavior that's being compared. No one actually called anyone a dog or implied that they're sub-human.

    I have to be honest, if someone was helping me and then out of the blue, they came at me with extra emo and told me to quit being a fucking parasite, and a piece of trash? I would probably never speak to them again. Like Z said, I would infinitely, infinitely prefer someone vent to someone else, where their ventee might help them get some perspective on the situation and help them come up with a plan of attack, rather than them directing a volcano of emotion at me.

    I'm never going to just trash talk someone and schmooze them to their face. When I vent, I'm trying to manage my negative emotions. I understand that my students might need to do that about me if I give them a zero for plagiarizing, etc. I don't hold people accountable for stuff they say when they're venting when they're just frustrated with me and trying not to be mad at me.
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  5. #455
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This is what I'd typed yesterday right before the forum went down:


    But how is "you're a parasite" okay, and "she lets her kids run around like dogs" cruel? In the first situation, you're actually being directly compared to an offensive thing. In the second, it's the behavior that's being compared. No one actually called anyone a dog or implied that they're sub-human.

    I have to be honest, if someone was helping me and then out of the blue, they came at me with extra emo and told me to quit being a fucking parasite, and a piece of trash? I would probably never speak to them again. Like Z said, I would infinitely, infinitely prefer someone vent to someone else, where their ventee might help them get some perspective on the situation and help them come up with a plan of attack, rather than them directing a volcano of emotion at me.

    I'm never going to just trash talk someone and schmooze them to their face. When I vent, I'm trying to manage my negative emotions. I understand that my students might need to do that about me if I give them a zero for plagiarizing, etc. I don't hold people accountable for stuff they say when they're venting when they're just frustrated with me and trying not to be mad at me.
    I agree soooo hard.
    -end of thread-

  6. #456
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Some of this is becoming very individualized. But, I do relate to some aspects, so I am interested in exploring that.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    that you're saying it to that person's face and not behind their back. at least when it's to their face it's private and they can defend themself. when it's behind their back, it's defaming them to other people, and they don't have any opportunity to explain their behavior from their own perspective.
    I do relate to this. A saying that frequently comes to my mind is that I wouldn't say something about you to anyone else that I wouldn't be prepared to say to you directly. I try to live up to that, yet sometimes my feelings do get the better of me in that I will vent some of my frustration out loud to my hubs or a close friend. But I try to couch it in the most neutral way I can, knowing that my words define me as much as my actions. And I know that if I need to vent to someone else, I am somehow ignoring the fact that a direct (yet politically correct) approach is needed in this situation, so I must examine myself and make that happen. It's like, if I need to vent, I've let things get too far. So I need to either act on these emotional signals or let go of them.

    In my twenties, I didn't know how to do this, and often took advantage of opportunities to withdraw without confronting. For example, after a move, just letting the draining relationships naturally drift away. Now, I try to be more head-on, as I feel it's a generally healthier approach, for me and for the other person I feel in conflict with.

    there's no fair opportunity for that sort of forum when you talk behind someone else's back. it's like holding court without the defendant being allowed to be there, just prosecutor and jury. we hope the jury will see fairly and give good feedback, but it's still sort of unfair to the defendant, who doesn't even have any idea court is taking place. and of course the prosecutor is also the judge, so that's kind of messy too... the Fi method is more like keep your opinions to yourself until the person's behavior becomes unacceptable (it's actively harming someone), at which point you just confront them, either in private with them or in a public forum, but what really matters to it being fair is that they have the opportunity to defend themselves. i imagine this is highly uncomfortable for Fe users, but it is generally a fast and clean method of resolution between two FPs, or an FP and a TJ.
    It's the reason why the court system tries to be as open and transparent as possible. The accused has a right to face his accuser. Let the facts be presented and let the jury decide.

    my instinct says - why not just talk to them directly? are you just afraid of a reaction from them? i mean that's really how Fe comes off sometimes, kind of cowardly. not saying Fe users are cowardly, but that's kind of how the behavior reads to Fi sometimes. like the Fe user is afraid to stand up to the other person so they talk about the accused behind their backs, where that person can't hurt them. instead, they build up a group of people who see their side of the story while turning them against the person they dislike, and finally they bring the issue to light only when they feel safely bolstered by the people around them.
    Yes, that.

    why ENFPs say mean things when they yell
    IDK, I can feel pretty angry but I still sanitize what comes out of my mouth. Since I can't predict how badly I could hurt you with my words, I have to defer to caution. I still have a filter there.

    haha I often think of ENFP's as unfitered now that I type that!

    i do think it's also immensely important to note that we don't have Fe to create distance with, so ENFPs end up pushing with spiteful Fi and a barrage of Te. we don't have the advantage of being able to wall off our mental space with Fe and introvert into Ni - we have to continue to be receptive to our environments because they are our primary source of information (unless we are expected to change type overnight). so an explosive argument like that really is just a GET THE HELL AWAY STOP IT PLEASE NOW. our judgment requires introverting the Feeling around us, so we are introverting all that negativity that has been building - you can see how it would be very painful to experience something like this, and why we might react in an explosive sort of manner once we deem it appropriate to finally speak. and why it's so fast and intense. i assume this is also why NFPs seem to have a quicker "recovery" time than NFJs after an argument - we lack the ability to block off our environments, so it'd be logical for us to want to reconcile with the exterior as soon as possible.
    I did feel resonance with this too ... I cannot help but be attuned to the emotional timbre of the room, asking me to ignore it is like asking me to stop breathing or something. I do know the feeling of wanting to make the other people back off, to get away from me, to stop bombarding me with negative emotions.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Re saying colorful stuff in the heat of the moment: "Is that what it means to be an Fi-primary?"
    Not for me. But I am a 9 in the enneagram too, and an introvert first position, so perhaps that accounts for some difference.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Per usual, still catching up- but I at least wanted to get this response to PB up.
    Thanks!

    ^It’s stuff like this that makes me wonder how many E/I attitude differences we ‘create’ in this forum, because I can relate so well. But then, what you wrote is exactly why I vent to a third party- hoping those missing pieces will be revealed before actually confronting the person. I hear the arguments presented- about how people can pick up on the judgments through unspoken cues that someone is having negative judgments- and I agree that just because we don’t voice negative judgments to a person doesn’t mean that person isn’t affected. But I do think that actually voicing the negative judgments to the person can have a more detrimental affect than voicing them to someone else- the negative judgments are there, whether we try to hide them or not (and so, will affect the person regardless), but voicing them to a third party can clear them up (by hopefully getting some of the missing pieces). It *seems* like Fi’ers are maybe better at holding it in longer and processing more on their own? I suspect Fi and Fe alike don’t wholly trust their own extrapolations, but Fe’ers need to put them ‘out there’ for feedback before Fi’ers do- just as Ti’ers aren’t always RIGHT, but they can process more internally before putting their thoughts ‘out there’.
    Agreed; very well said. I will process emotions inside to a much greater degree I think than just the ideas I have bouncing around in my head.

    This is where I’m getting stuck in extraverting the Ni/Ti mess of information that comes to mind. I’ve put *a lot* of thought, actually, into how Fi/Te processes the subjective function in a subjective way and the objective function in an objective way- and how Fe/Ti processes the subjective in an objective way and the objective in a subjective way- for a while now. But I’m having difficulty extroverting the information in an intelligible way. It looks like some people have already hit on it though- I take the collective of values into account while interacting with my environment because I don’t consider my own values more important that others’ values. There’s a lot more to it, but being stuck in articulating it is the reason it’s taken me so long to respond- so I’m going to skip over it for now. [edit:] When I say 'extraverting information', I mean 'extraverting theories'. I have theories I'd like to bounce off others, but I'm having a hard time articulating them.
    Me too; it's like jello with fruit bits to me right now. How eloquent is that?

    I’m reminded of an episode of Futurama, the plot was centered around an election and the two candidates were John Jackson and Jack Johnson. They were almost identical, with just a few almost indiscernible differences. The episode was making fun of how when people focus really hard on a couple of differences, something can look as different as night and day- yet to anyone who hasn’t been primed to thoroughly scan for differences, the two things aren't as different as they're being made out to be. I mean, it's not like people are either 100% Fe or 100% Fi- yet these discussions almost make it seem like we're discussing black and white, instead of the infinite in-between shades of grey that we really are.
    I agree. I looked for that Futurama clip to post it here; not on YouTube that I could find.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    actually, look how they're metaphors, in a way - it's difficult, when you're heated, to communicate "you are living off the work of someone else and not contributing, and i find that very hurtful to me because it is hurting myself, others, and yourself, and you need to realize this", and much easier to use the proxy: you're a parasite. it's faster.
    Yes, I think the explanation of metaphors is sound here and well-expressed. Although I am not likely to bust out with that sentence myself, the phrase "you are like a parasite" is not literal to me, it says everything a much longer and more precise statement says, without the mental torture of trying to find the exact words. Anyone who has read any number of my posts in the past can tell how much I rely on them to convey my thoughts and feelings.

    So, I get this. But would I say it? Almost 100% no ... but that doesn't make me any better. It just means I have some differing habits in this area.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    But that's why there's a difference between deliberately talking behind people's backs as a means to ostracize and simply venting. The latter shares neither the intent nor consequences with the former, and is thus not to be evaluated on the same level.
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    This is a good distinction. With the former.... I'm thinking of malicious office gossip, or junior high/high school cliques/talk. And goodness... Fi-er's were/are just as guilty as Fe'ers in those scenarios. It's awful. THAT sort of stuff isn't the venting being discussed in this thread.
    I think the line between venting and back-stabbing is kinda grey to Fi users, we aren't as adept maybe at seeing when the line is crossed? I find the language to be about the same color (the kids run around like dogs vs you are a parasite) but I know in my head what it would take for me to say either out loud. I would have to feel pretty condemnatory indeed, and it would make me feel like I was violating an Fi value to say it anyway.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  7. #457
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    adding a little disclaimer, this goes for my last post too -- what i say is generally all a little mix of theorizing, defending, hypothesizing, etc... a lot of it's akin to brainstorming. as ENxPs are apt to do, i probably seem to be arguing for something harder than i actually believe it, because in a lot of ways typing this stuff out is a way for me to explain it to myself... it's not meant to be 100% my finalized opinions on ENFPs, or NFPs, or Fi/Fe, or any of that. it's just thinking, talking... some of it playing devil's advocate... etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherC View Post
    I have been trying to read this thread to learn more but this is the second time reading it I just exit and find myself angry or frustrated from the back and forth here or something. Harumph!

    Heather- Leaving thread and walking down hall at work with small storm cloud over her head now. :yim_phbbbbt:
    sorry

    i think a lot of negative emotions get stirred up during this thread... lots of misunderstanding one another. it helps when i get upset if i remember that the whole reason we are on this website and talking in the first place is to help understand ourselves and one another, so it's for a good overall purpose... even if we get a little mired in the difficulties while working through things...

    --

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate
    The thing is- with Ti, there’s really no such thing as FINAL PRODUCT. I especially don’t think it’s possible to come up with immutable facts where the human mind is concerned. I think Ti likes things to stay relatively ‘open’. It wants to see how far the terms match the underlying phenomenom, but it’s also careful about over doing it and throwing things in the pot (into the definiton) that don’t belong there. So as far as ‘final product’ is concerned: it’s all relative. What Ti’ers come up with is more of a ‘finished product’, they are more careful about the definitions they put forth- but there is no such thing as FINAL PRODUCT, there’s only a neverending game of getting it more and more accurate (the external reality will never be able to reflect the ideal accuracy that Ti craves). [edit:] I'm guessing it's the same with Fi- that value judgments or criticisms put forth aren't FINAL per se, but it generally feels like you've put more deliberation and care into them before putting them 'out there', yes?
    yes, for sure.

    It kind of seems like the primary diff here might be that NFPs/Fi’ers don’t pay as much attention to refining external ‘shared’ definitions, and focus on refining understanding of the solitary underlying phenomenon; the work of thoroughly refining ‘shared’ definitions seems maybe superflous (Te wants quick ‘shared’ definitions). Ti (at least, as presented in these threads) seems focused on finding the most accurate and fair definition of the underlying phenomenon possible, to be able to find universals in the collective of solitary underlying phenomenons and carefully sculpt a ‘shared’ definition from this collective; delving into one’s own solitary underlying phenomenon too long (without comparing it others) loses its meaning after a while. I think a lot of the communication conflict in these threads results from that difference. Does that sound like a fair assessment?
    yeah, that does.

    and i think maybe even in application, i feel like we should hold off on judgments about people until we really know what they are like. because personal identity is so important, there is nothing more important to a person than their self, it's the only thing they really have... so we should be careful to be so quick to make judgments about people. but with T stuff, it's not such a big deal to me, because if the logic works, then it works, and if it doesn't, it doesn't, and we'll change our ideas around. we're never going to have the full truth so it's not such a big deal if the Ti stuff isn't always quite right. i guess maybe it seems the same way to Fe, that it's okay to put opinions about people out there, because if it's true, it's true, and if it's not, it's not. i don't know if i'm getting this right, but i could understand things that way.

    Expressed in more personal terms: it makes my head spin sometimes to listen to someone go on and on and on about emo problems in a circular way. At the same time, I *love love love* when someone goes on and on and on about theories (that I’m interested in)- in a circular way, without a clear ‘goal’, just for the exploration of ideas. Ironically, I love going back and forth with people on theories about feelings- noticing what causes them in people, why certain things are catalysts, whether there are feelings that seem universal or not- but talking about one person’s feelings (without being able to back up and apply it theoretically to a broader scope- simply talking about the one person’s feelings) absolutely wears me out after a little while. It feels stifling to me. It’s holding me in a place where my vocabulary is very limited. I’m sure there are fascinating nuances to explore there- of this I absolutely trust, because I’m the same way with Ti- but I don’t perceive them. They only become fascinating nuances to me once they can directly translate into some universal theoretical template to feed Ti/Fe. Or something.
    huh, that's interesting. yeah i kind of feel the opposite way. what do you mean about stifling/ no vocabulary? like talking about different kinds of sadness/anger, or something different?

    For the record, I may have overstated how exhausting simply listening to emo venting is before- if I care about someone, and it’s how they handle things, then I’ll gladly to put up with it to make someone feel better. It’s when I start to feel like they are taking it for granted that I start feeling exhausted by it. If they aren’t using me as a sounding board to ultimately improve their situation- but rather are using me as a sympathetic ear, enabling them to continue in a bad situation- then I begin to lose patience. It’s still taxing for me- but there are some friends I have with whom I’ve learned not to take their initial venting with as much weight as my own. Once I realize they aren’t putting forth ‘finished product’, and that I don’t have to give what they’re saying much weight- then I can turn off my ‘hard core empathizer’ and pay less attention. Really, in the end, what taxes me is when they keep coming back and complaining about the same things without being willing to take action to make the problem better. I’ll do it to help someone, to achieve practical results, but I never do it out of idle fascination- unless, like I said, I’m seeing something in it that I can apply to some larger universal scope.
    well, and like i mentioned before, it's the same thing with listening to a Fe user... when it feels like they don't appreciate how much energy you are putting into listening to all this negative stuff, without them seeming to be getting anywhere in terms of how they feel, that's hard too. it's interesting to know that you process pretty much the opposite way. thanks

    --

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    But that's why there's a difference between deliberately talking behind people's backs as a means to ostracize and simply venting. The latter shares neither the intent nor consequences with the former, and is thus not to be evaluated on the same level.
    sure, but i feel like this kind of falls under the same heading of "how am i supposed to know"... how are you supposed to know i don't mean what i imply when i'm yelling? how do i know you don't mean what you imply when you're venting? i mean hopefully the other person knows, or hopefully you tell them, but i've been on the wrong end of both.

    i think what PB said is true --

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    I think the line between venting and back-stabbing is kinda grey to Fi users, we aren't as adept maybe at seeing when the line is crossed?
    yeah... it seems like the intent doesn't really matter, you're still putting that negative stuff out there. even if the other person knows that, it doesn't make what you're saying any better. they're still hurtful words.

    is there a more clear difference to Fe users? how do you react differently... do you take venting in more confidence, do you take it less seriously? if i parallel this with my understanding an argument as a sort of reality-removed time, then i assume it's the same for you listening to someone vent. the same rules don't apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Also, if you know that someone doesn't like you (whether they've said it to your face or not), don't you already assume that they probably tell others anyway? If someone has the nerve to blow up in my face and call me "scum," I'm going to assume that they abuse me with equal or greater vitriol behind my back.
    huh. no actually... that's interesting. in general i assume that people are going to say much worse things in face-to-face disagreement, because they are heated with anger. i mean, i'm sure that people have said stuff to friends about me being annoying, or some other little complaints, but i would expect them to be much more intense during a fight when they are amped up with stress rather than while talking coolly with others.

    Thus if someone is ONLY talking behind my back there's at least a chance that I won't even know about it (in which case why would I ever give a crap?) This piety about "never talking badly behind people's backs regardless of the circumstances in which it happens" therefore really only serves the self.
    eh, i don't think you need to refer to it as piety. it's really not any more moralistic as saying that expressing exaggerations in anger is more wrong than expressing them while venting to another person. but no, i really don't think it serves the self only either. the problem i have is not so much that the speaking about others occurs - i mean everyone talks about everyone - but that the person in question doesn't get to know too. i feel like if people are annoyed with me, then i want to know, because i might not realize how i'm coming off and might be very embarrassed to know, and want to change. not that i want to hear from every random person on the street, but when it's someone closer to me, it would be good. it just seems like there's an unfair disconnect otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey
    Right? It takes a self-centered person to grant their own opinion so much weight in such matters.
    but shouldn't you care enough about the people close to you to confront them when you think that they're doing something really hurtful? i don't understand how on one hand you could say everyone's perspective is valid, but then turn around and say one isn't, if that makes sense. like everyone has the right to their own opinion, but their opinion doesn't matter enough to be worthy of expression. if that's true, then how can you trust yourself to act outwardly at all?

    --

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    But how is "you're a parasite" okay, and "she lets her kids run around like dogs" cruel? In the first situation, you're actually being directly compared to an offensive thing. In the second, it's the behavior that's being compared. No one actually called anyone a dog or implied that they're sub-human.
    i do still feel that calling children dogs carries that connotation. even if the exact wording doesn't mean that, it's just too close in my mind.

    both things are shitty though. i don't think either is okay. i just feel like it's easier to understand why someone in the heat and confusion and all the crazy emotions that can occur in argument would say something mean, while when you're talking to someone else in a safe, private conversation, there's really no reason to use wording like that. i guess maybe it can feel to others that you can "let go" while you're around a trusted friend, while you need to be cordial to a person's face, but it still feels weird to me.

    When I vent, I'm trying to manage my negative emotions. I understand that my students might need to do that about me if I give them a zero for plagiarizing, etc. I don't hold people accountable for stuff they say when they're venting when they're just frustrated with me and trying not to be mad at me.
    i think i just see it from the opposite light... i don't hold people as accountable when they're yelling at me because confronting someone is hard and confusing and unpleasant and you're all keyed up and scared and defensive and frustrated and everything like that.

    i guess i kind of always thought an "argument" was a contained space, where you get all your frustrations out and work through things with someone. that it's kind of removed from reality... that it doesn't "count" in some ways. you get frustrated, say some dumb things, and then you're done. i guess others feel the same way about venting to someone else. in truth they both seem to have their ups and downs. i don't see either perspective as much better than the other.

    --

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    A saying that frequently comes to my mind is that I wouldn't say something about you to anyone else that I wouldn't be prepared to say to you directly. I try to live up to that, yet sometimes my feelings do get the better of me in that I will vent some of my frustration out loud to my hubs or a close friend. But I try to couch it in the most neutral way I can, knowing that my words define me as much as my actions. And I know that if I need to vent to someone else, I am somehow ignoring the fact that a direct (yet politically correct) approach is needed in this situation, so I must examine myself and make that happen. It's like, if I need to vent, I've let things get too far. So I need to either act on these emotional signals or let go of them.
    yeah, i feel this way too. if i need to vent it's gotten to a point where i can't handle it on my own, and that's not good.

    So, I get this. But would I say it? Almost 100% no ... but that doesn't make me any better. It just means I have some differing habits in this area.
    well, and i don't know if i'd say that either. it totally depends on the situation. orobas has expressed how her sister has been cut off from the family as a whole - obviously she has done some very frustrating things, and i can only imagine that this wording is in proportion with that frustration.

    and i just feel like i should point out, that it's rare that i yell at someone and say stuff like this. it's usually only with someone i am somewhat close to and feel comfortable speaking frankly to (i know, i know, this only makes it worse in Fe eyes), and over an issue that has been going on for a very long time and that i have unsuccessfully attempted to deal with. it's a point of desperation, not a usual reaction.

  8. #458
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    sure, but i feel like this kind of falls under the same heading of "how am i supposed to know"... how are you supposed to know i don't mean what i imply when i'm yelling? how do i know you don't mean what you imply when you're venting? i mean hopefully the other person knows, or hopefully you tell them, but i've been on the wrong end of both.
    Well, you use your judgment to discern what's going on in any particular case. In general I find that most people are not trying to be malicious (and when they are, it's extremely obvious, no matter how sly they think they are), so when someone's language comes across as more emotionally heightened than usual, I tend to chalk it up to frustration/not take their words as seriously.

    But that's only in the case of third-party venting. If someone's had the nerve to "vent" uncontrollably to my face about ME (which, at that point, it's lost its "safe" quality and moved into the territory of real hurtfulness) then I just find them annoying and sometimes even pathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i think what PB said is true --

    yeah... it seems like the intent doesn't really matter, you're still putting that negative stuff out there. even if the other person knows that, it doesn't make what you're saying any better. they're still hurtful words.
    Words are not in and of themselves bad. It's what they do. So if I say nasty things about another person to my wall, I'm not really doing anything wrong. No harm is being done in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    is there a more clear difference to Fe users? how do you react differently... do you take venting in more confidence, do you take it less seriously?
    Yes. Why wouldn't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    huh. no actually... that's interesting. in general i assume that people are going to say much worse things in face-to-face disagreement, because they are heated with anger. i mean, i'm sure that people have said stuff to friends about me being annoying, or some other little complaints, but i would expect them to be much more intense during a fight when they are amped up with stress rather than while talking coolly with others.
    It seems to me that people generally do not "put it all out there" to others. Perhaps there are a few exceptions, but I tend to assume that whatever is said to my face is only a portion of what is truly felt or thought. Society wouldn't be nearly as functional if that were not the case, non?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    eh, i don't think you need to refer to it as piety. it's really not any more moralistic as saying that expressing exaggerations in anger is more wrong than expressing them while venting to another person.
    I'm a bit confused here, as I don't remember anybody saying that expressing exaggerations in anger is more wrong than expressing them while venting. I said it's a form of piety because, if the other person is not being directly harmed by your words, then the only thing stopping you from saying them is your own feelings of guilt.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    but no, i really don't think it serves the self only either. the problem i have is not so much that the speaking about others occurs - i mean everyone talks about everyone - but that the person in question doesn't get to know too. i feel like if people are annoyed with me, then i want to know, because i might not realize how i'm coming off and might be very embarrassed to know, and want to change. not that i want to hear from every random person on the street, but when it's someone closer to me, it would be good. it just seems like there's an unfair disconnect otherwise.
    Personally, I would not care to know. I tend to think that others' complaints about me are more their problem than mine, so as long as they keep it to themselves, I have no reason to fret about it. Of course, if I'm behaving in such a way as to cause social dysfunction (which is unlikely because I'm usually very aware, if not of my behavior, then at least to other people's reactions to it), it is in everyone's interest to let me know, but I don't want to hear about it in a big burst of anger. If the person is that angry that they can't control themselves, I'd rather they cool off before speaking to me and THEN tell me in a rational manner. I can honestly think of no circumstances in which language like "you're scum" is called for in direct confrontation. In fact, I think that kind of thing might well qualify as fighting words.

    It's the same with saying things to other people's faces. If I find someone utterly repugnant, it does not behoove me to blow up in their face saying things like "you're scum, you're a parasite." If anything, that will simply cause them to react in kind (potentially leading to violence), and whatever true message I may have had will be lost in the mode of delivery.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    but shouldn't you care enough about the people close to you to confront them when you think that they're doing something really hurtful?
    Sure, but there's a time and place, and it has to be warranted.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i don't understand how on one hand you could say everyone's perspective is valid, but then turn around and say one isn't, if that makes sense. like everyone has the right to their own opinion, but their opinion doesn't matter enough to be worthy of expression. if that's true, then how can you trust yourself to act outwardly at all?
    To say that everyone has a right to their own opinion does not mean that all opinions are of equal value. I try to make sure that when I do act outwardly, I have a better foundation for my opinion than simply that it's my right to have one. Part of that involves, of course, measuring my opinion against those of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i just feel like it's easier to understand why someone in the heat and confusion and all the crazy emotions that can occur in argument would say something mean, while when you're talking to someone else in a safe, private conversation, there's really no reason to use wording like that.
    .
    .
    i think i just see it from the opposite light... i don't hold people as accountable when they're yelling at me because confronting someone is hard and confusing and unpleasant and you're all keyed up and scared and defensive and frustrated and everything like that.
    It's funny, I think quite the opposite. It's much better, from my perspective, to dispel any excess anger in a place where it has no consequences than to just throw it out there whenever I feel like it, even to the person's face. It seems like you think the utterance of mean things is more excusable if it's in the heat of confrontation, since the person will likely not be in control of their emotions; I tend to think, however, that it's less excusable, since the consequences will be far greater for you and the other person if angry words are exchanged during confrontation than in any other scenario. So where you view third-party venting as underhanded and deceitful, I see it as a more responsible way to treat excessive feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i guess maybe it can feel to others that you can "let go" while you're around a trusted friend, while you need to be cordial to a person's face.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i guess i kind of always thought an "argument" was a contained space, where you get all your frustrations out and work through things with someone. that it's kind of removed from reality... that it doesn't "count" in some ways. you get frustrated, say some dumb things, and then you're done.
    This is a nice concept I guess, but I think that in reality it's quite naive. You're never going to escape hurt feelings and resentment once you've said something that rubs the other person the wrong way (or they've done so to you, especially if you're a sensitive person), no matter how much you both may have agreed that whatever is said in this "contained space" doesn't "count." If anything, you're just going to fuel one another's feelings of aggression. Thus if venting is necessary, then it's best if it's done in a place where it really is "safe," such as to a close friend.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #459
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I absolutely agree with what Orangey's said, above. I do understand that Fi doesn't work that way, and that Fi users feel better handling things in the manner skylights has laid out. The problem comes when a Fe user and a Fi user have an argument. What's an acceptable compromise? I'll be honest and say that the Fi way in the past has kind of been a turning point in a few friendships, and not in a good way. I've decided to part ways with some people after being yelled at out of nowhere (but this was also before I had any understanding of Fe or Fi--I just knew I felt absolutely attacked and misunderstood). I would know more where they were coming from now, but it's still not a comfortable way of operating.

    Another thing I thought of in reading Orangey's response to skylights. I deal with emotional things by creating a little distance so I can examine them. I don't trust my feelings in the heat of the moment. I can easily let things become more important than they actually are. I can handle venting because I know it's not directed at me, and I can provide a clearer, more objective perspective. If someone is angry directly AT me, I lose all perspective. I don't know whether I've actually done anything wrong, and I can't examine my behavior. I go on the defensive. Also, I've found when an Fi user gets angry enough to talk to me, they point Te at me, and it makes me feel scolded, which makes me SUPER not want to give them what they want, because I feel like I'm not being treated like an adult. So it's a big ole cluster, obviously. And having lots of emotion directed at me kind of turns me off, because I feel like the person isn't controlling their emotions. It feels irresponsible to a Fe user. It feels like they're imposing on me to make themselves feel better, when sometimes they need not have involved me at all, because an alternate perspective from a disinterested party may have given them the information they needed (i.e., she's been neglecting you because she's up to her freaking eyeballs in work stuff right now and can't handle a social life).
    Something Witty

  10. #460
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Well, you use your judgment to discern what's going on in any particular case. In general I find that most people are not trying to be malicious (and when they are, it's extremely obvious, no matter how sly they think they are), so when someone's language comes across as more emotionally heightened than usual, I tend to chalk it up to frustration/not take their words as seriously.

    But that's only in the case of third-party venting. If someone's had the nerve to "vent" uncontrollably to my face about ME (which, at that point, it's lost its "safe" quality and moved into the territory of real hurtfulness) then I just find them annoying and sometimes even pathetic.
    "Venting" in my face like that means it's time to fight, either verbally or physically. That's why it's not done.

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