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  1. #441
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    ^^ +1 This resonates quite a lot with me - in terms of how I build upon relationships as well as when I back away from them. It's important that I stay true to myself, too, and tie that into what I know of the other person and how THEY are. Because it's important to me that THEY stay who they are and stay true to themselves - as I'm not in the business of changing people. This is where my sense of the Relationship comes in - if I sense that my staying true to myself, and they staying true to themselves, results in a mutually-satisfactory-Relationship-impossibility, I'll not devote myself to it or I'll remove myself from the relationship. This is why yes, commonalities are rather important to me. If we're so diametrically opposed, it's not that I think the other person is 'wrong' or whatever, it's more that the combo of us two together- our natural selves - is not excellent.

    Regarding venting. Here's the thing. I don't view the MIL's views/judgments towards the mother as 'cruel' per se. I view it as... she has a right to have that opinion. I may not agree with it, or to the degree of it, but she certainly has a right to it. I mean.. I don't like everyone I meet, and I might actively dislike some people or think they've got lots of things going on that I disagree with or whatever. But that's just MY opinion - I'm not about to tell that to them to their face because MY view is irrelevant. Lots of other people might - and probably do - feel quite differently than I. So yeah, I might vent to trusted people, and state that I'm not a fan of so and so, or disagree with them, again, because I'm not in the business of telling that to the persons' face because I'm not in the business of making them feel bad about themselves when they're who they are, and I who I am, and it may not be that they're Objectively Bad in the grand scheme - but they're 'bad' in terms of my wanting them in MY life, and us two don't jive well together.
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  2. #442
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    But that's just MY opinion - I'm not about to tell that to them to their face because MY view is irrelevant. Lots of other people might - and probably do - feel quite differently than I. So yeah, I might vent to trusted people, and state that I'm not a fan of so and so, or disagree with them, again, because I'm not in the business of telling that to the persons' face because I'm not in the business of making them feel bad about themselves when they're who they are, and I who I am, and it may not be that they're Objectively Bad in the grand scheme - but they're 'bad' in terms of my wanting them in MY life, and us two don't jive well together.
    I agree with this.

    Also, I think telling someone to their face "you are scum" is way, way, way more cruel than telling a close friend in confidence "she does scummy things". Because in the second case, odds are very good that 1) the person will never know about the venting, 2) the listener will know that the talker is just blowing off steam and 3) the listener will probably not spread on the "venting" and 4) you probably don't even think the person IS scum, but are just frustrated by the things they're doing. If it was going about deliberating spreading rumours, that's one thing, but venting to one person in private isn't the same.

    I mean, if you're deliberately hurting and insulting someone....how is that better than a situation where she is not hurt or insulted?
    -end of thread-

  3. #443
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Step 1) I feel really badly for you. I am a terrible planner myself so I totally get what you are saying about organizing bills. I once lost a job and I know how much it really sucks. Shit happens sometimes, and you are an awesome person, so dont let it get you down. We'll figure something out.

    Step 2) Do you need money for a down payment on a new car? Can I help you pay your bills or cover rent till you get paid again? Do you need a ride anywhere? (Notice how "logistical" all of this is-never commenting on the person-assuming no ill intent but just a run of bad luck)

    Step 3) ? You lost your job huh. Why did you lose it? What did you do wrong? Are you sure it was your bosses fault? What could you have done to get more guidance? You should have spoken with your bosses boss. Was it your own pride that prevented you from seeking more help? I totally know how you feel, though, been there. Did you look online to see if you could find resources to equip you with more information to complete the tasks assigned? What will you do next time so this doesnt repeat? Getting your car repo was a pretty bad move to be honest. Without a car you cant get to work or anything else. If it was me I would have placed a higher priority on getting the car paid and not eaten out so much. You werent opening your bills? Bad move to be honest.

    Step 4) You know I have been giving you a ride for two weeks now. What work have you been doing to get your own car? Have you made a down payment? Make sure and check it out at a mechanic's first. I can give you a ride for one more week, but after that you need to resolve the issue yourself. (These are the EXACT words I would say to the person)

    After crossing multiple boundaries....

    Step 5) I have been helping you for months and you have failed over and over again to act independently. I dont understand why you think it is okay to be a parasite on other people, but you need to get your shit together and quit using others. Grow a backbone, man up and get a fucking job. Have some pride in yourself and quite being a fucking scavenger. Your family comes before you and if you dont take the initiative to feed and clothe them, you are a piece of trash. It isnt simply needing help, but instead that you are too lazy to support yourself and plan for the future. (I would say these exact words. hehe, my brother and I have said words very much like this to my sister, an ESFP parasite. She is cut off from our families now.)
    I don't know if I could ever call someone a "fucking scavenger" and "a piece of trash" to their face... especially if it was a close friend or family member. It depends on context, but I don't really see that ever happening. Even when I've had to deal with selfish people, I don't actually like to label them that way... labeling their very person rather than just labeling their choices and actions. I'd like to say it to my dad, he deserves it more than anyone else I've known in my family... and yet my doing so will not change him for the better and only will make things worse for him and others... so I don't think that's a responsible use of my autonomy.

    I also don't see such ocurrences as funny or delightful. I see the whole situation as sad and painful that I would have to say such hard things to someone in order to them change their lives for the better. Even with people I am very angry at (and I've even felt anger like that at a few people I've had to deal with far too often on this forum), I still have a sense about me that sees them as a human being, and often they have a different outlook that is making it difficult for them to make the necessary changes, and I just don't really derive much joy out of the whole thing whatsoever, even if at the moment I do feel some relief at being able to release my tension and stating my mind.

    Is that what it means to be an Fi-primary? Because if it is, I'm glad as hell I'm not one. (But, honestly, considering I know some other Fi people who would NEVER behave this way, i don't think it's an Fi thing. I think it's just pent-up frustration as well as some degree of self-righteous pleasure, if I had to guess -- finally someone is getting what they seemingly deserve, and all apparent wrongs shall be righted.)

    As far as skimming the rest, I think for me, the "Fe" thing in the fourth position means that I try very hard to subject my emotions to the constraints and needs of the group I am currently interacting with. There are many things I often feel like saying and might even feel are okay to say in general, but whenever I am in a group, I am aware of the unspoken rules and expectations of the group. Sometimes I disagree with the rules and expectations (that's the fun of being Ti -- you sometimes see such things as bullshit)... and at that point, it comes down to "what are the ramifications of me choosing to act a certain way -- does it achieve my goals, does it create the sort of environment that needs to exist in order to fulfill the natural function of the group, etc." So I'm logically looking at the overall impact of me expressing particular values and feelings in the moment, and if those expressions of myself are going to derail the big picture, then I make my emotions subservient to the needs of the group and the situation. It's more important for me to support the goal and group atmosphere than it is necessary for me to simply have freedom to express and impose myself.

    That's my personal experience.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #444
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    and do try to understand that for whatever reason, when ENFPs lash out, we tend to call people not nice things that we don't really mean literally. i know, this is shitty, but don't pretend like you don't do shitty things too.
    Whoa whoa, wait a second, I thought Fi didn't say these things to the person until they were truly 100% convinced that the person is complete scum. Now you're saying that you would say things like

    "you're a parasite"
    "you're a piece of trash"
    "you're too lazy to take care of your family"

    To someone's face and not mean them literally??!

    And Fi calls venting cruel?!
    -end of thread-

  5. #445
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I mean.. I don't like everyone I meet, and I might actively dislike some people or think they've got lots of things going on that I disagree with or whatever. But that's just MY opinion - I'm not about to tell that to them to their face because MY view is irrelevant. Lots of other people might - and probably do - feel quite differently than I. So yeah, I might vent to trusted people, and state that I'm not a fan of so and so, or disagree with them, again, because I'm not in the business of telling that to the persons' face because I'm not in the business of making them feel bad about themselves when they're who they are, and I who I am, and it may not be that they're Objectively Bad in the grand scheme - but they're 'bad' in terms of my wanting them in MY life, and us two don't jive well together.
    Right? It takes a self-centered person to grant their own opinion so much weight in such matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I agree with this.

    Also, I think telling someone to their face "you are scum" is way, way, way more cruel than telling a close friend in confidence "she does scummy things". Because in the second case, odds are very good that 1) the person will never know about the venting, 2) the listener will know that the talker is just blowing off steam and 3) the listener will probably not spread on the "venting" and 4) you probably don't even think the person IS scum, but are just frustrated by the things they're doing. If it was going about deliberating spreading rumours, that's one thing, but venting to one person in private isn't the same.

    I mean, if you're deliberately hurting and insulting someone....how is that better than a situation where she is not hurt or insulted?
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Is that what it means to be an Fi-primary? Because if it is, I'm glad as hell I'm not one. (But, honestly, considering I know some other Fi people who would NEVER behave this way, i don't think it's an Fi thing. I think it's just pent-up frustration as well as some degree of self-righteous pleasure, if I had to guess -- finally someone is getting what they seemingly deserve, and all apparent wrongs shall be righted.)
    I think so, too.
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  6. #446
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Per usual, still catching up- but I at least wanted to get this response to PB up.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    This comment spawned a question for me: does an Fe user have to agree with or understand someone (or the reason they are upset) in order to respond with compassion? I have noted that Te has difficulty with this, perhaps so too does Fe. I sometimes think Fe has a patience bandwidth, a time limit of response? That you get the Fe ear for only so long and if they don't agree you receive an Fe-style directive to "suck it up" so to speak. Te's directive is kind of different ... will focus on "Well did you do this? Did you do that? Why didn't you blah blah blah"

    This thought needs more pondering and refinement. Please respond or add as anyone sees fit.
    Totally agree with what cascadeco said about this.

    That could explain my hesitance to place a "people" judgement out in the world. You can never know all the variables that constitute a human action or behaviour, and right when you decide to throw caution to the wind and make a snap judgement on someone (as opposed to listening to the intuition about someone) that's when they come back with new behaviour that will surprise you or your mother tells you they had cancer last year so that's perhaps why they are acting they way they do. I trust my intuitions, but not my extrapolations, until I have real data. Til I do my due diligence. Does that make sense?
    ^It’s stuff like this that makes me wonder how many E/I attitude differences we ‘create’ in this forum, because I can relate so well. But then, what you wrote is exactly why I vent to a third party- hoping those missing pieces will be revealed before actually confronting the person. I hear the arguments presented- about how people can pick up on the judgments through unspoken cues that someone is having negative judgments- and I agree that just because we don’t voice negative judgments to a person doesn’t mean that person isn’t affected. But I do think that actually voicing the negative judgments to the person can have a more detrimental affect than voicing them to someone else- the negative judgments are there, whether we try to hide them or not (and so, will affect the person regardless), but voicing them to a third party can clear them up (by hopefully getting some of the missing pieces). It *seems* like Fi’ers are maybe better at holding it in longer and processing more on their own? I suspect Fi and Fe alike don’t wholly trust their own extrapolations, but Fe’ers need to put them ‘out there’ for feedback before Fi’ers do- just as Ti’ers aren’t always RIGHT, but they can process more internally before putting their thoughts ‘out there’.


    Need to reflect on this, I am not sure. Being objective about subjective things seems tricky to me - Fe feels more context dependent, tries to build a foundation (objectivity) in sand, and the sand shifts (human subjectivity), and what to do then? If Fi is subjectively subjective and Te is objectively objective, as an INFP I trust a process that challenges me to look at things in that harsher Te light. Fi gives me a whole whack of impressions, and feelings, and guides my congruency to that core of Fi principles, and Te holds everything to the light and asks if I am being logical, systematic, thorough, efficient. Maybe it's why Ti is so challenged to look at people-stuff, it's often so seemingly illogical! Fe is needed to cut out what seems like chaff and find that universality of principle, what WORKS. And vice versa. Fi has more tolerance to this infinite array of variables, Fi I guess being a brand of logic too. Yet I am aware of the subjective, personal nature of it.

    Adding the disclaimer that I don't believe one process (or hierarchy of process) inherently better than another.

    I am simply blabbing out loud, need to think about this more.
    This is where I’m getting stuck in extraverting the Ni/Ti mess of information that comes to mind. I’ve put *a lot* of thought, actually, into how Fi/Te processes the subjective function in a subjective way and the objective function in an objective way- and how Fe/Ti processes the subjective in an objective way and the objective in a subjective way- for a while now. But I’m having difficulty extroverting the information in an intelligible way. It looks like some people have already hit on it though- I take the collective of values into account while interacting with my environment because I don’t consider my own values more important that others’ values. There’s a lot more to it, but being stuck in articulating it is the reason it’s taken me so long to respond- so I’m going to skip over it for now. [edit:] When I say 'extraverting information', I mean 'extraverting theories'. I have theories I'd like to bounce off others, but I'm having a hard time articulating them.

    Yes, I could have written this too ... I don't have an infinite patience to listen to OPP (other people's problems) mostly when they take no action and desire to wallow. I have no tolerance to wallow. Maybe an afternoon of watching old movies and eating ice cream with chocolate sauce ... but that's as far as I want to be stuck. I will listen, and commiserate, and offer some advice if asked, but someone who takes advantage of me listening - I have learned how to shut that down. In my twenties, oh the people I attracted, who all they ever did was share their continued issues in their lives, and who seemingly never acted. Hmmm, anyway. We all live and learn and grow. Those folks still helped me grow.
    Again, this kind of thing makes me wonder if we’re making mountains out of molehills in these Fe/Fi convos.

    I’m reminded of an episode of Futurama, the plot was centered around an election and the two candidates were John Jackson and Jack Johnson. They were almost identical, with just a few almost indiscernible differences. The episode was making fun of how when people focus really hard on a couple of differences, something can look as different as night and day- yet to anyone who hasn’t been primed to thoroughly scan for differences, the two things aren't as different as they're being made out to be. I mean, it's not like people are either 100% Fe or 100% Fi- yet these discussions almost make it seem like we're discussing black and white, instead of the infinite in-between shades of grey that we really are.


    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i think some of the difference is that you're saying it to that person's face and not behind their back. at least when it's to their face it's private and they can defend themself. when it's behind their back, it's defaming them to other people, and they don't have any opportunity to explain their behavior from their own perspective.

    why speaking behind someone's back seems instinctually offensive to an FP

    even though i have come to a point in my life where i have a trusted friend to vent to, and i do err to the side of checking with a trusted person when i am not sure how to proceed with someone, it still seems a bit disingenuous to talk about someone else, even if it's with good intent. when i check in with you guys here it seems totally okay because it's very anonymous, no one is getting bad impressions of themselves created. but when it's not anonymous, there's no real guarantee that a person you confide in won't pass it on... you just happen to trust them... but that falls through sometimes, and that could create so much pain coming from people who don't even know what they're talking about, who don't know the whole story. in the situation orobas described, she does know the whole story. and if the judgment is wrong, the other person can argue against it. that's the Te aspect, i think, it's almost a challenge in some ways. a posit. "you're this, unless you prove it otherwise."

    there's no fair opportunity for that sort of forum when you talk behind someone else's back. it's like holding court without the defendant being allowed to be there, just prosecutor and jury. we hope the jury will see fairly and give good feedback, but it's still sort of unfair to the defendant, who doesn't even have any idea court is taking place. and of course the prosecutor is also the judge, so that's kind of messy too... the Fi method is more like keep your opinions to yourself until the person's behavior becomes unacceptable (it's actively harming someone), at which point you just confront them, either in private with them or in a public forum, but what really matters to it being fair is that they have the opportunity to defend themselves. i imagine this is highly uncomfortable for Fe users, but it is generally a fast and clean method of resolution between two FPs, or an FP and a TJ.

    why Fe-style judgment seems instinctually repelling to me

    i do understand why the language i use in argument really sucks and can hurt others, and how my style of confrontation can be confusing when there has been little prior warning and suddenly there is a huge angry explosion. i also have grown to a point where i see why bouncing my judgments off others is important, though i probably do not do it as gracefully as i should, not nearly as much so as a Fe dom or aux.

    however, i still am not totally convinced that telling someone what you think of them is usually more harmful than spreading negative talk about them. you still think the same thing regardless... and how much harder is it going to be for that person to change when people around them think that they are like that? this Fe perspective really confuses me on an instinctual level, if i don't try hard to change my immediate cognition patterns. my instinct says - why not just talk to them directly? are you just afraid of a reaction from them? i mean that's really how Fe comes off sometimes, kind of cowardly. not saying Fe users are cowardly, but that's kind of how the behavior reads to Fi sometimes. like the Fe user is afraid to stand up to the other person so they talk about the accused behind their backs, where that person can't hurt them. instead, they build up a group of people who see their side of the story while turning them against the person they dislike, and finally they bring the issue to light only when they feel safely bolstered by the people around them. and then you wonder why an accused FP lashes out! the FP has been unwittingly backed into a corner over something they probably had little idea was that much of a problem in the first place, and they are marooned without a social protection function like Fe to navigate with. they're trapped between subjective subjectivity, which you find emo and self-centered, and objective objectivity, which you find overbearing and cruel.

    obviously this is not what i think of Fe users, but how it feels sometimes. how the other perspective can seem equally, if not more, damaging.

    i know that's not how it feels to you guys, and thanks to many of the wonderful members on this form, z buck and fidelia included, i am making leaps and bounds in understanding the other perspective, but for those who are taken aback, please try to understand from our side of the equation too. you're like O_o; to us but we feel the same way.
    It might be worthwhile here to point out that I won’t vent about someone I’m close to with someone I don’t trust. The people I am closest to- I always vent directly to that person. I don’t get close to people I can’t vent to, for this very reason. If I find myself needing to vent about someone to a third party, then I always hold them at a distance- because it feels too incongruent.

    And when it comes to people that I hold at a bit of a distance- I vent to others because it’s what I’d prefer be done myself. I’d personally prefer someone (whom I’m not particularly close to) vent to a third party than have them come directly at me with their complaints- even if I can already tell by their behavior that they’re put off by me. The reason for this is that once I’m directly involved in conflict- the emotion makes it hard for me to think clearly. If venting to someone else helps them shave the excess emotion off and present their grieveance in a calmer, more logical manner- then I’m all for it. If their complaint about me is unwarranted- let’s say they’re a particularly self-centered person who thinks I’m being selfish, but it’s really just them projecting selfishness- then they are probably like that on a regular enough basis that whoever they are venting to is going to take it into account. Really, I just can’t easily handle someone coming at me like a volcano of raw emotion- unless it isn’t about me, then I can help them sort through the feelings. But if it’s about me, and they aren’t especially close to me (like I said, I don’t let people close to me if they erupt too easily)- I really seriously would prefer they take it somewhere else until they calm down.

    I only consider it back-stabbing if the person is saying horrible things- not just while angry, but on a somewhat regular basis- while also trying to be excessively nice to my face, as if they want me to believe we have a good relationship. This is especially true if they keep taking advantage of the perks of being in a ‘good relationship’ with me. Whenever I start feeling the need to vent about someone- I at least stop taking advantage of the perks of my friendship/acquaintance with them. Back-stabbing to me also has the connotation of someone spreading negative things in effort to discredit me- which is a separate action than venting. If they aren't doing it to sort through conflicting emotions in their head, but instead are simply trying to make me look bad for personal gain- it isn't venting.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  7. #447
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @ z buck - i still need to reply to you, working on it

    note -- this is all a little mix of theorizing, defending, hypothesizing, etc... a lot of it's akin to brainstorming. as ENxPs are apt to do, i probably seem to be arguing for something harder than i actually believe it, because in a lot of ways typing this stuff out is a way for me to explain it to myself... it's not meant to be 100% my finalized opinions on ENFPs, or NFPs, or Fi/Fe, or any of that. it's just thinking, talking... some of it playing devil's advocate... etc

    just so you know

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I agree with this.

    Also, I think telling someone to their face "you are scum" is way, way, way more cruel than telling a close friend in confidence "she does scummy things". Because in the second case, odds are very good that 1) the person will never know about the venting, 2) the listener will know that the talker is just blowing off steam and 3) the listener will probably not spread on the "venting" and 4) you probably don't even think the person IS scum, but are just frustrated by the things they're doing. If it was going about deliberating spreading rumours, that's one thing, but venting to one person in private isn't the same.

    I mean, if you're deliberately hurting and insulting someone....how is that better than a situation where she is not hurt or insulted?
    i see your points, that makes a lot of sense.

    however - it's better, from the Fi perspective, because she would be hurt and insulted if she knew what you were saying about her to other people. you're not just being mean, you're being mean and deceiving.

    and how convenient for you if she never hears about it! you can say all the mean things you want to all the time, and never suffer any consequences. that doesn't make it okay or right to say those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Whoa whoa, wait a second, I thought Fi didn't say these things to the person until they were truly 100% convinced that the person is complete scum. Now you're saying that you would say things like

    "you're a parasite"
    "you're a piece of trash"
    "you're too lazy to take care of your family"

    To someone's face and not mean them literally??!

    And Fi calls venting cruel?!
    well, i don't really agree with the 100% scum thing. i'd say i would not say these things, things like them, etc, until it is clear to me that the person is without a doubt hurting other people (myself included), and shows no likelihood of stopping unless i intervene. so what i'm saying that sometimes i say things in the heat of argument that are exaggerated. i don't know if this is true for INFPs as well - it seems to be more characteristic of ENFPs, i think it's a bad Te/Fi synthesis thing.

    actually, look how they're metaphors, in a way - it's difficult, when you're heated, to communicate "you are living off the work of someone else and not contributing, and i find that very hurtful to me because it is hurting myself, others, and yourself, and you need to realize this", and much easier to use the proxy: you're a parasite. it's faster. i want to be done with this argument asap, not draw it on for hours. the more concise, the better. and still, i don't find any of those statements nearly as cruel as talking behind someone's back. because if the statement is true, then it's true, and if it's not, then it's not, and it's really sort of irrelevant what i think. if someone calls me a parasite, and i think that's not true, i will tell them why not. and that is between me and them. people have dumb ideas about others all the time, it's usually because we have a hard time seeing one another's point of view. but you bring it up to them, and then it's addressed. they get to shoot it down for the dumb statement that it is.

    i mean, outside of the context of argument, that statement is almost funny. you're a parasite! your mom's a parasite.


    and then compare that 3rd-grade-level statement with telling your coworker that a mutual acquaintance is scum. that creates such huge bias. you're influencing others' opinion of another person when the other person is not there to defend themselves. do it with more than one person and essentially you're creating a gang. it's like secretive warfare, building up your ammo while you pretend like you're allies. we call that kind of fighting dirty for a reason. it's based in lying.

    what i see as "cruel" is a situation in which you're kicking someone who's down - you've already won and you're just rubbing it in because you can. and that's exactly what speaking behind someone's back does. they're completely defenseless, and you're just kicking them until the other person says "hey maybe that's a bad idea". there's no self-control, it's entirely contingent on the other person. this is why Fe fucks up so badly sometimes, because a whole group of people could agree that kicking someone is a-okay as long as no one has any objections to it.

    so basically Fe lies to ensure a situation in which they can safely attack someone and the other person has no means of fighting back without essentially committing social suicide.

    yet Fi is cruel?



    Quote Originally Posted by -cascadeco
    This resonates quite a lot with me - in terms of how I build upon relationships as well as when I back away from them. It's important that I stay true to myself, too, and tie that into what I know of the other person and how THEY are. Because it's important to me that THEY stay who they are and stay true to themselves - as I'm not in the business of changing people. This is where my sense of the Relationship comes in - if I sense that my staying true to myself, and they staying true to themselves, results in a mutually-satisfactory-Relationship-impossibility, I'll not devote myself to it or I'll remove myself from the relationship. This is why yes, commonalities are rather important to me. If we're so diametrically opposed, it's not that I think the other person is 'wrong' or whatever, it's more that the combo of us two together- our natural selves - is not excellent.

    Regarding venting. Here's the thing. I don't view the MIL's views/judgments towards the mother as 'cruel' per se. I view it as... she has a right to have that opinion. I may not agree with it, or to the degree of it, but she certainly has a right to it. I mean.. I don't like everyone I meet, and I might actively dislike some people or think they've got lots of things going on that I disagree with or whatever. But that's just MY opinion - I'm not about to tell that to them to their face because MY view is irrelevant. Lots of other people might - and probably do - feel quite differently than I. So yeah, I might vent to trusted people, and state that I'm not a fan of so and so, or disagree with them, again, because I'm not in the business of telling that to the persons' face because I'm not in the business of making them feel bad about themselves when they're who they are, and I who I am, and it may not be that they're Objectively Bad in the grand scheme - but they're 'bad' in terms of my wanting them in MY life, and us two don't jive well together.
    this is an excellent explanation, cascade, thank you!

    anyway, just to play from the opposite side and continue my argument - this can become a problem if we are not willing to speak up. all of our viewpoints are our own, but Fi comes from the origin of trusting your own feelings to be Right, and so you should instinctively know when something is wrong. obviously, this can be used very immaturely, but when used maturely, a Fi user can stop a gross violation of human rights while a Fe perspective like this could allow it to occur by saying "it's just my subjective viewpoint, it doesn't matter what i think."

    of course, i think the solution lies somewhere in the middle, between Fi and Fe. both can be used wisely or foolishly. Fi users need to learn how to temper their own opinions and check them with others, otherwise they will spout completely subjective viewpoints and never be able to associate with others. Fe users need to trust their inner sense of right and wrong more. obviously both type groups also lean on their other functions, Fi using Ne to become more aware of its environment and Fe using Ni to see if others are trustworthy or not.

    and most Fe users i know would absolutely balk at anything near human rights violations for other reasons. pretty much everyone i know would, we're all human, after all. but i felt like i should show the rationalizing from my side of the equation, too
    Last edited by skylights; 02-18-2011 at 06:15 PM. Reason: added note at beginning, very important!

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    ^ Agree that a balance in both -- balancing and formulating your own core values as well as recognizing they are also inherently subjective and thus you're part of a community of individuals with the same right to develop and create their own vales/views -- is probably best.

    I don't have time to formulate a long response, but a quick thing to point out is that I think there's a difference between simpy a personal dislike of a person and how they go about doing things, vs. going into human rights violations territory and all of that.

    This also ties into what I said earlier about how I go about relationships - just that I too have my own set of values and what I look for out of relationships and what won't tolerate out of them and out of people in my life. I may not feel the need in most cases to actually push back and state that I won't tolerate or stand for something, but frankly that's partly because I *don't* have strong views on many things. But I certainly don't allow negative influences into my life or won't support things I am against. I am just perhaps not as... needful of pushing my stance/beliefs? I am not sure.

    In any event, it's interesting how differently we perceive what is being 'kind' vs. what is unkind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Whoa whoa, wait a second, I thought Fi didn't say these things to the person until they were truly 100% convinced that the person is complete scum. Now you're saying that you would say things like

    "you're a parasite"
    "you're a piece of trash"
    "you're too lazy to take care of your family"

    To someone's face and not mean them literally??!

    And Fi calls venting cruel?!
    Yeah, I think out of the three of my kids, I found the ESFP most hurtful because he is most prone to actually saying really horrible things to other family members and then excusing it after he's no longer angry by, "Well, I was just angry / I didn't really mean it." Although, at the time, he really did mean it... there was no discernable difference, based on his emotion and behavior and wording.

    For a number of years, this was his standard modus operandi, and it took us a long time to work with him so that he could find more productive approaches to family interactions. "Short-term" honesty (yes, we know you're angry, you don't have to abuse people for them to realize that) is not as true as "long-term" honesty which expresses the truth of your commitments to another human being and their well-being.

    The INFJ and INTP are far more prone to make sure what they say matches their long-term intentions, despite occasionally having vents of their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post





    It might be worthwhile here to point out that I won’t vent about someone I’m close to with someone I don’t trust. The people I am closest to- I always vent directly to that person. I don’t get close to people I can’t vent to, for this very reason. If I find myself needing to vent about someone to a third party, then I always hold them at a distance- because it feels too incongruent.

    And when it comes to people that I hold at a bit of a distance- I vent to others because it’s what I’d prefer be done myself. I’d personally prefer someone (whom I’m not particularly close to) vent to a third party than have them come directly at me with their complaints- even if I can already tell by their behavior that they’re put off by me. The reason for this is that once I’m directly involved in conflict- the emotion makes it hard for me to think clearly. If venting to someone else helps them shave the excess emotion off and present their grieveance in a calmer, more logical manner- then I’m all for it. If their complaint about me is unwarranted- let’s say they’re a particularly self-centered person who thinks I’m being selfish, but it’s really just them projecting selfishness- then they are probably like that on a regular enough basis that whoever they are venting to is going to take it into account. Really, I just can’t easily handle someone coming at me like a volcano of raw emotion- unless it isn’t about me, then I can help them sort through the feelings. But if it’s about me, and they aren’t especially close to me (like I said, I don’t let people close to me if they erupt too easily)- I really seriously would prefer they take it somewhere else until they calm down.

    I only consider it back-stabbing if the person is saying horrible things- not just while angry, but on a somewhat regular basis- while also trying to be excessively nice to my face, as if they want me to believe we have a good relationship. This is especially true if they keep taking advantage of the perks of being in a ‘good relationship’ with me. Whenever I start feeling the need to vent about someone- I at least stop taking advantage of the perks of my friendship/acquaintance with them. Back-stabbing to me also has the connotation of someone spreading negative things in effort to discredit me- which is a separate action than venting. If they aren't doing it to sort through conflicting emotions in their head, but instead are simply trying to make me look bad for personal gain- it isn't venting.
    I relate to everything you've said here. If I feel that someone has other motives other than they genuinely like me, then I will, as you say, stop taking advantage of the perks of the acquaintance. Recently I realized someone I worked with was just being friendly with me because she wanted information from me about a close friend of mine. I started to distance myself from her when I realized what she was doing. I think when someone does this, it's likely a pattern in their lives. I'll just remove myself and say very little. Someone who is a back-stabber has issues that have nothing to do with me--they are projecting their own insecurities on to everyone they feel might be a threat to them, which is almost everyone. They put others down to make themselves seem better. However, other people aren't usually fooled by this grandiouse behavior. I've learned to stand my ground and push back with people like this (only one I've known) because they will crumble when they realize you're not afraid of them.

    I agree with what Cascadeco said as well. I don't impose myself on others. I usually sit back, watch, and listen. I don't judge someone on a moment's behavior. I'll take into account that I don't know what else is going on in their lives. I also look at past behavior and the whole of our relationship.

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