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  1. #431
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ knew you would say that, because you're right, it's not a perfect oxymoron. Missed my point though, eh?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #432
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Missed my point though, eh?
    Nah, I just figured that since you're so good at comforting, I'd might as well leave it to your capable hands, er, words.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #433
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i think you are right about the final product, but it frustrates me a little because it sounds like what you're saying is that even if the final product put forth by the Fe user in regards to Fi is not quite right, then we should just suck it up and not address how it's not right? but to me, the whole purpose of the forum is understanding one another, and i would want to know if you thought my take on Fe was not the way you felt about it. i imagine we're running into this on both the Ti/Te and Fi/Fe ends, because Te and Fe just want to be done with it and move on while Ti and Fi are like, wait, that's not right... admittedly i see some of the NTP conversations in the NT forum and am like god that discussion could go on forever, which is true, we could play a game of reductio ad nauseum with anything. i suppose perhaps that is how some NFP discussions feel to you guys, too, but to us this Fi nitty-gritty is what's really important, so we need to get it just right, because if we don't, then we can't proceed correctly...
    The thing is- with Ti, there’s really no such thing as FINAL PRODUCT. I especially don’t think it’s possible to come up with immutable facts where the human mind is concerned. I think Ti likes things to stay relatively ‘open’. It wants to see how far the terms match the underlying phenomenom, but it’s also careful about over doing it and throwing things in the pot (into the definiton) that don’t belong there. So as far as ‘final product’ is concerned: it’s all relative. What Ti’ers come up with is more of a ‘finished product’, they are more careful about the definitions they put forth- but there is no such thing as FINAL PRODUCT, there’s only a neverending game of getting it more and more accurate (the external reality will never be able to reflect the ideal accuracy that Ti craves). [edit:] I'm guessing it's the same with Fi- that value judgments or criticisms put forth aren't FINAL per se, but it generally feels like you've put more deliberation and care into them before putting them 'out there', yes?

    It kind of seems like the primary diff here might be that NFPs/Fi’ers don’t pay as much attention to refining external ‘shared’ definitions, and focus on refining understanding of the solitary underlying phenomenon; the work of thoroughly refining ‘shared’ definitions seems maybe superflous (Te wants quick ‘shared’ definitions). Ti (at least, as presented in these threads) seems focused on finding the most accurate and fair definition of the underlying phenomenon possible, to be able to find universals in the collective of solitary underlying phenomenons and carefully sculpt a ‘shared’ definition from this collective; delving into one’s own solitary underlying phenomenon too long (without comparing it others) loses its meaning after a while. I think a lot of the communication conflict in these threads results from that difference. Does that sound like a fair assessment?

    Expressed in more personal terms: it makes my head spin sometimes to listen to someone go on and on and on about emo problems in a circular way. At the same time, I *love love love* when someone goes on and on and on about theories (that I’m interested in)- in a circular way, without a clear ‘goal’, just for the exploration of ideas. Ironically, I love going back and forth with people on theories about feelings- noticing what causes them in people, why certain things are catalysts, whether there are feelings that seem universal or not- but talking about one person’s feelings (without being able to back up and apply it theoretically to a broader scope- simply talking about the one person’s feelings) absolutely wears me out after a little while. It feels stifling to me. It’s holding me in a place where my vocabulary is very limited. I’m sure there are fascinating nuances to explore there- of this I absolutely trust, because I’m the same way with Ti- but I don’t perceive them. They only become fascinating nuances to me once they can directly translate into some universal theoretical template to feed Ti/Fe. Or something.

    For the record, I may have overstated how exhausting simply listening to emo venting is before- if I care about someone, and it’s how they handle things, then I’ll gladly to put up with it to make someone feel better. It’s when I start to feel like they are taking it for granted that I start feeling exhausted by it. If they aren’t using me as a sounding board to ultimately improve their situation- but rather are using me as a sympathetic ear, enabling them to continue in a bad situation- then I begin to lose patience. It’s still taxing for me- but there are some friends I have with whom I’ve learned not to take their initial venting with as much weight as my own. Once I realize they aren’t putting forth ‘finished product’, and that I don’t have to give what they’re saying much weight- then I can turn off my ‘hard core empathizer’ and pay less attention. Really, in the end, what taxes me is when they keep coming back and complaining about the same things without being willing to take action to make the problem better. I’ll do it to help someone, to achieve practical results, but I never do it out of idle fascination- unless, like I said, I’m seeing something in it that I can apply to some larger universal scope.

    @ Orobas, I’m hoping to get back to your morning post as well, it's gonna take me a while to catch up with new posts again, but I wanted to post this now.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #434
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks, but see, even here, an Fi notion ... no offense Z Buck, because I respect you so very much for your thoughts and sharing on this forum, and have proven your good intentions time and time again. Still, there's the word notion:

    no·tion   
    –noun
    1. a general understanding; vague or imperfect conception or idea of something: a notion of how something should be done.
    2. an opinion, view, or belief: That's his notion, not mine.
    3. conception or idea: his notion of democracy.
    4. a fanciful or foolish idea; whim: She had a notion to swim in the winter.

    We are saying - it is more than a notion. Notion implies kind of a vague, frivolous silliness on our part. And I know you don't mean it like that.

    *sigh* idk if me pointing this stuff out helps any at all. Words that describe inner or emotional states have to be crystal-clear perfect for me is all. Notion as a word feels too vague and kind of invalidating.
    Still catching up, but I wanted to clarify here. I hadn't considered 'this notion' to be one put forth by Fi'ers (I was responding to the way Orangey was questioning Fid, it seemed like a theory shared by Fi and Fe alike thus far in this thread), and didn't intend to invalidate by choosing the term 'notion'. Sorry. Maybe it would have better to use 'theory'?
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #435
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    If you get responses that seem hurtful to you O, it is more that people don't understand yet where you are coming from or need more explanation from you. It's not that you are wrong to ever bring this kind of thing up.
    This comment spawned a question for me: does an Fe user have to agree with or understand someone (or the reason they are upset) in order to respond with compassion? I have noted that Te has difficulty with this, perhaps so too does Fe. I sometimes think Fe has a patience bandwidth, a time limit of response? That you get the Fe ear for only so long and if they don't agree you receive an Fe-style directive to "suck it up" so to speak. Te's directive is kind of different ... will focus on "Well did you do this? Did you do that? Why didn't you blah blah blah"

    This thought needs more pondering and refinement. Please respond or add as anyone sees fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    The thing is- with Ti, there’s really no such thing as FINAL PRODUCT. I especially don’t think it’s possible to come up with immutable facts where the human mind is concerned. I think Ti likes things to stay relatively ‘open’. It wants to see how far the terms match the underlying phenomenom, but it’s also careful about over doing it and throwing things in the pot (into the definiton) that don’t belong there.
    Yes I think that's interesting. Fi wants all the facts, in order to validate or invalidate impressions, and places them in a scale of relevance ... in this thread for example, when we started to wade into the MIL's supposed childhood traumas, I would class that as going too far and overweighting things that don't belong in the immediate equation atm. The MIL is important of course, but is secondary to the immediate issue of the family crisis, primary only to the potential clouding of real issues, so when we start talking about a whack of theories to explain her behaviour too we wade into territory that is interesting, something to explore down the road, but further out in the weeds.

    So as far as ‘final product’ is concerned: it’s all relative. What Ti’ers come up with is more of a ‘finished product’, they are more careful about the definitions they put forth- but there is no such thing as FINAL PRODUCT, there’s only a neverending game of getting it more and more accurate (the external reality will never be able to reflect the ideal accuracy that Ti craves). [edit:] I'm guessing it's the same with Fi- that value judgments or criticisms put forth aren't FINAL per se, but it generally feels like you've put more deliberation and care into them before putting them 'out there', yes?
    That could explain my hesitance to place a "people" judgement out in the world. You can never know all the variables that constitute a human action or behaviour, and right when you decide to throw caution to the wind and make a snap judgement on someone (as opposed to listening to the intuition about someone) that's when they come back with new behaviour that will surprise you or your mother tells you they had cancer last year so that's perhaps why they are acting they way they do. I trust my intuitions, but not my extrapolations, until I have real data. Til I do my due diligence. Does that make sense?

    It kind of seems like the primary diff here might be that NFPs/Fi’ers don’t pay as much attention to refining external ‘shared’ definitions, and focus on refining understanding of the solitary underlying phenomenon; the work of thoroughly refining ‘shared’ definitions seems maybe superflous (Te wants quick ‘shared’ definitions). Ti (at least, as presented in these threads) seems focused on finding the most accurate and fair definition of the underlying phenomenon possible, to be able to find universals in the collective of solitary underlying phenomenons and carefully sculpt a ‘shared’ definition from this collective; delving into one’s own solitary underlying phenomenon too long (without comparing it others) loses its meaning after a while. I think a lot of the communication conflict in these threads results from that difference. Does that sound like a fair assessment?
    Need to reflect on this, I am not sure. Being objective about subjective things seems tricky to me - Fe feels more context dependent, tries to build a foundation (objectivity) in sand, and the sand shifts (human subjectivity), and what to do then? If Fi is subjectively subjective and Te is objectively objective, as an INFP I trust a process that challenges me to look at things in that harsher Te light. Fi gives me a whole whack of impressions, and feelings, and guides my congruency to that core of Fi principles, and Te holds everything to the light and asks if I am being logical, systematic, thorough, efficient. Maybe it's why Ti is so challenged to look at people-stuff, it's often so seemingly illogical! Fe is needed to cut out what seems like chaff and find that universality of principle, what WORKS. And vice versa. Fi has more tolerance to this infinite array of variables, Fi I guess being a brand of logic too. Yet I am aware of the subjective, personal nature of it.

    Adding the disclaimer that I don't believe one process (or hierarchy of process) inherently better than another.

    I am simply blabbing out loud, need to think about this more.

    Expressed in more personal terms: it makes my head spin sometimes to listen to someone go on and on and on about emo problems in a circular way. At the same time, I *love love love* when someone goes on and on and on about theories (that I’m interested in)- in a circular way, without a clear ‘goal’, just for the exploration of ideas. Ironically, I love going back and forth with people on theories about feelings- noticing what causes them in people, why certain things are catalysts, whether there are feelings that seem universal or not- but talking about one person’s feelings (without being able to back up and apply it theoretically to a broader scope- simply talking about the one person’s feelings) absolutely wears me out after a little while. It feels stifling to me. It’s holding me in a place where my vocabulary is very limited. I’m sure there are fascinating nuances to explore there- of this I absolutely trust, because I’m the same way with Ti- but I don’t perceive them. They only become fascinating nuances to me once they can directly translate into some universal theoretical template to feed Ti/Fe. Or something.
    Cool.

    For the record, I may have overstated how exhausting simply listening to emo venting is before- if I care about someone, and it’s how they handle things, then I’ll gladly to put up with it to make someone feel better. It’s when I start to feel like they are taking it for granted that I start feeling exhausted by it. If they aren’t using me as a sounding board to ultimately improve their situation- but rather are using me as a sympathetic ear, enabling them to continue in a bad situation- then I begin to lose patience. It’s still taxing for me- but there are some friends I have with whom I’ve learned not to take their initial venting with as much weight as my own. Once I realize they aren’t putting forth ‘finished product’, and that I don’t have to give what they’re saying much weight- then I can turn off my ‘hard core empathizer’ and pay less attention. Really, in the end, what taxes me is when they keep coming back and complaining about the same things without being willing to take action to make the problem better. I’ll do it to help someone, to achieve practical results, but I never do it out of idle fascination- unless, like I said, I’m seeing something in it that I can apply to some larger universal scope.
    Yes, I could have written this too ... I don't have an infinite patience to listen to OPP (other people's problems) mostly when they take no action and desire to wallow. I have no tolerance to wallow. Maybe an afternoon of watching old movies and eating ice cream with chocolate sauce ... but that's as far as I want to be stuck. I will listen, and commiserate, and offer some advice if asked, but someone who takes advantage of me listening - I have learned how to shut that down. In my twenties, oh the people I attracted, who all they ever did was share their continued issues in their lives, and who seemingly never acted. Hmmm, anyway. We all live and learn and grow. Those folks still helped me grow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Still catching up, but I wanted to clarify here. I hadn't considered 'this notion' to be one put forth by Fi'ers (I was responding to the way Orangey was questioning Fid, it seemed like a theory shared by Fi and Fe alike thus far in this thread), and didn't intend to invalidate by choosing the term 'notion'. Sorry. Maybe it would have better to use 'theory'?
    Thanks muchly for that acknowledgement. It pretty much feels like fact to me, but I would expect the other Fi'ers to weigh in and validate it further.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Need to reflect on this, I am not sure. Being objective about subjective things seems tricky to me - Fe feels more context dependent, tries to build a foundation (objectivity) in sand, and the sand shifts (human subjectivity), and what to do then? If Fi is subjectively subjective and Te is objectively objective, as an INFP I trust a process that challenges me to look at things in that harsher Te light. Fi gives me a whole whack of impressions, and feelings, and guides my congruency to that core of Fi principles, and Te holds everything to the light and asks if I am being logical, systematic, thorough, efficient. Maybe it's why Ti is so challenged to look at people-stuff, it's often so seemingly illogical! Fe is needed to cut out what seems like chaff and find that universality of principle, what WORKS. And vice versa. Fi has more tolerance to this infinite array of variables, Fi I guess being a brand of logic too. Yet I am aware of the subjective, personal nature of it.
    Its enjoyable to add logic to people...just as an Fi person will add feelings to inanimate objects like dolls.

    Fi isnt like logic, but the basis behind Fi can be applied logically in a subjective/personal sense. The logic is the "why", but the feeling itself is not logic, but an outcome of the logic. Solve the logic and you solve the feeling...Te. Te is more forceful in solving the logic, where as Ti is more about understanding the logic. Fe is more forceful in solving the feeling, where as Fi is more about understanding the feeling.

    edit: on a side note, my son likes adding him/her to inanimate objects. Referring to the can opener as him or her Nothing bad/wrong./etc. just...

  7. #437
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    This comment spawned a question for me: does an Fe user have to agree with or understand someone (or the reason they are upset) in order to respond with compassion?
    Well...I think yes.

    To give an extreme example, but it might help illustrate -

    If Person A is angry because his girlfriend had said she'd pick him up at 6 and the girlfriend totally forgot and went out to dinner with her friend instead, and this is a recurring pattern, I'd understand the anger/frustration and would have empathy.

    If Person C is angry because her friend 'should have known' to bring food over when she was sick, I'd have a hard time empathizing because the anger wouldn't make a bit of sense to me if she didn't communicate things in the first place.

    If Person D is righteously angry at their professor because of the exam they just took and that they failed, I'm going to have a hard time empathizing if they didn't study or didn't even listen to what the professor had said would be on the test so it was a fail on their part.

    Basically, yes, I tend to have a hard time empathizing pure emotion when it comes to situations where the person is in the mess they're in or feeling what they're feeling because of their own lack of forethought or lack of communication. When they're trying to blame others for their half of things / their element of responsibility.

    This seems kind of harsh when I type it out, but it's kind of how I am. So yeah, I need to really understand why people are feeling what they're feeling - the background - and I may not in the end empathize. So it's why I'm not an ideal candidate for people who are just wanting pure affirmation/solace for what they're feeling. I'm definitely a bad candidate for that. Now to be clear, I'm not going to de-value them, esp. if it's just them venting or whatever, but I'm also not really going to affirm them - so I won't really be able to provide what they're needing/wanting. I might try to affirm, but since I'm not truly empathetic it'll probably be obvious to the other person that I'm not really feeling it. I might be able to say, 'I'm sorry you're feeling that way, that sucks', but I'm not going to be able to say, 'I totally understand what you're feeling,' and then go there with them - because I don't really understand and might not think they should be angry AT the person they're directing the anger to (like in some of the above examples) - angry at themselves? Sure, that's different though.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  8. #438
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Step 3) ? You lost your job huh. Why did you lose it? What did you do wrong? Are you sure it was your bosses fault? What could you have done to get more guidance? You should have spoken with your bosses boss. Was it your own pride that prevented you from seeking more help? I totally know how you feel, though, been there. Did you look online to see if you could find resources to equip you with more information to complete the tasks assigned? What will you do next time so this doesnt repeat? Getting your car repo was a pretty bad move to be honest. Without a car you cant get to work or anything else. If it was me I would have placed a higher priority on getting the car paid and not eaten out so much. You werent opening your bills? Bad move to be honest.

    Step 4) You know I have been giving you a ride for two weeks now. What work have you been doing to get your own car? Have you made a down payment? Make sure and check it out at a mechanic's first. I can give you a ride for one more week, but after that you need to resolve the issue yourself. (These are the EXACT words I would say to the person)

    After crossing multiple boundaries....

    Step 5) I have been helping you for months and you have failed over and over again to act independently. I dont understand why you think it is okay to be a parasite on other people, but you need to get your shit together and quit using others. Grow a backbone, man up and get a fucking job. Have some pride in yourself and quite being a fucking scavenger. Your family comes before you and if you dont take the initiative to feed and clothe them, you are a piece of trash. It isnt simply needing help, but instead that you are too lazy to support yourself and plan for the future. (I would say these exact words. hehe, my brother and I have said words very much like this to my sister, an ESFP parasite. She is cut off from our families now.)

    Do my words and actions sound very different from what an TP or FJ would do? If I took the above steps with an FJ or TP I am assuming I would offend them-as many of them are now things I consciously DONT do, given I have learned they create offense from convos here.
    I can't believe you thought the MIL was being "cruel" by venting given that you would actually say this to someone. Why is it necessary to call the person names instead of just "I can't deal with you in my life, goodbye"? It looks to me like you're "venting" to the actual person!!

    I can understand you saying "step 5" (sort of), and I can understand you saying the MIL is cruel. I seriously can't understand the same person doing both, though.
    -end of thread-

  9. #439
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, I guess it's that we speak different languages, but the above stuff from O seems harsher to me than venting privately with someone who will not pass it on. It seems much more conclusive that the person in question is a bad person, rather than that their behaviour is bad, but could be amended.

    In answer to PB's question, yes, I think I feel the same as cascadeco. I have to be able to see in some way that the person is making an effort and being reasonable before I'm going to have any kind of sympathy for their plight. I am willing to cut people a lot of slack and give second chances, but there needs to be some indication that there is actual interest in improving what is going on for me to continue putting in effort. I don't want to feel angry at them or be unkind to them, so if I'm quite sure that I cannot help them with a good attitude towards them (after a number of attempts), I probably will turn my efforts towards someone that I have more of a chance of actually assisting.

    This need to align oneself with another's perspective is evident in Fe posting style and interactions. We tend to start from areas of commonality before branching off to explore areas of differences. We usually seek out people that we feel we do have enough in common with that we can understand where they are coming from. If we do not feel much in common, then we'll ask questions to look for the areas where there is something that we can build from. That doesn't mean that I need to surround myself with people who think exactly the same as me, but something needs to be the same, whether it is intention, approach or ideas. Therefore I could get along well with someone who has wildly different beliefs as long as they are to approach things in a way that makes some sense to me. This is also why Feers frequently use other people to calibrate whether they are being reasonable or not and whether they need different information to temper the way that they are feeling. They want to bring themselves into alignment so that they can work together effectively.

  10. #440
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    edited a few times, sorry if you caught me before editing. it's come off more intense than i intended, trying to fix that. also as a giant wall of text, trying to fix that one too

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I can't believe you thought the MIL was being "cruel" by venting given that you would actually say this to someone. Why is it necessary to call the person names instead of just "I can't deal with you in my life, goodbye"? It looks to me like you're "venting" to the actual person!!

    I can understand you saying "step 5" (sort of), and I can understand you saying the MIL is cruel. I seriously can't understand the same person doing both, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    the above stuff from O seems harsher to me than venting privately with someone who will not pass it on. It seems much more conclusive that the person in question is a bad person, rather than that their behaviour is bad, but could be amended.
    i think some of the difference is that you're saying it to that person's face and not behind their back. at least when it's to their face it's private and they can defend themself. when it's behind their back, it's defaming them to other people, and they don't have any opportunity to explain their behavior from their own perspective.

    why speaking behind someone's back seems instinctually offensive to an FP

    even though i have come to a point in my life where i have a trusted friend to vent to, and i do err to the side of checking with a trusted person when i am not sure how to proceed with someone, it still seems a bit disingenuous to talk about someone else, even if it's with good intent. when i check in with you guys here it seems totally okay because it's very anonymous, no one is getting bad impressions of themselves created. but when it's not anonymous, there's no real guarantee that a person you confide in won't pass it on... you just happen to trust them... but that falls through sometimes, and that could create so much pain coming from people who don't even know what they're talking about, who don't know the whole story. in the situation orobas described, she does know the whole story. and if the judgment is wrong, the other person can argue against it. that's the Te aspect, i think, it's almost a challenge in some ways. a posit. "you're this, unless you prove it otherwise."

    there's no fair opportunity for that sort of forum when you talk behind someone else's back. it's like holding court without the defendant being allowed to be there, just prosecutor and jury. we hope the jury will see fairly and give good feedback, but it's still sort of unfair to the defendant, who doesn't even have any idea court is taking place. and of course the prosecutor is also the judge, so that's kind of messy too... the Fi method is more like keep your opinions to yourself until the person's behavior becomes unacceptable (it's actively harming someone), at which point you just confront them, either in private with them or in a public forum, but what really matters to it being fair is that they have the opportunity to defend themselves. i imagine this is highly uncomfortable for Fe users, but it is generally a fast and clean method of resolution between two FPs, or an FP and a TJ.

    why Fe-style judgment seems instinctually repelling to me

    i do understand why the language i use in argument really sucks and can hurt others, and how my style of confrontation can be confusing when there has been little prior warning and suddenly there is a huge angry explosion. i also have grown to a point where i see why bouncing my judgments off others is important, though i probably do not do it as gracefully as i should, not nearly as much so as a Fe dom or aux.

    however, i still am not totally convinced that telling someone what you think of them is usually more harmful than spreading negative talk about them. you still think the same thing regardless... and how much harder is it going to be for that person to change when people around them think that they are like that? this Fe perspective really confuses me on an instinctual level, if i don't try hard to change my immediate cognition patterns. my instinct says - why not just talk to them directly? are you just afraid of a reaction from them? i mean that's really how Fe comes off sometimes, kind of cowardly. not saying Fe users are cowardly, but that's kind of how the behavior reads to Fi sometimes. like the Fe user is afraid to stand up to the other person so they talk about the accused behind their backs, where that person can't hurt them. instead, they build up a group of people who see their side of the story while turning them against the person they dislike, and finally they bring the issue to light only when they feel safely bolstered by the people around them. and then you wonder why an accused FP lashes out!

    obviously this is not what i think of Fe users, but how it feels sometimes. how the other perspective can seem equally, if not more, damaging.

    i know that's not how it feels to you guys, and thanks to many of the wonderful members on this form, z buck and fidelia included, i am making leaps and bounds in understanding the other perspective, but for those who are taken aback, please try to understand from our side of the equation too. you're like O_o; to us but we feel the same way.

    why ENFPs say mean things when they yell

    it's crucial to note that Fi users don't tend to voice our judgments until we think it is really important - until we think we absolutely need to say something because someone is getting very seriously hurt. i think this ties into the harsher language that we may tend to use when we lash out - it's like a dam letting out! which is not good, but at least it's rational.

    still, in some ways i don't find "you're a fucking piece of trash" as serious as FJ guilt trips or directives. it's wording that conveys a lot of hurt emotion but not a lot of meaning, while FJ wording, as i experience it, tends to summarily tell you exactly how you are depraved, why the FJ is so much better than you, how you have hurt the FJ so badly, and basically all the other reasons you ought to just go throw yourself over a bridge. just call me a piece of trash and let me yell at you some, it's a whole lot easier to deal with. is that odd? it's almost like protective wording, in a way. i'm sure to some of you this will sound like WTF but i mean that. it's a crap argument, it allows you to speak emotion and vent emotion without really wounding the other person in a place that matters. if i wanted to say something awful, i would say how you're just messed up because your dad never loved you, or something that could really tear down a person. i dunno, even the wording orobas used in step 5 isn't nearly as bad as it could be. i mean, look, "Have some pride in yourself and quite being a fucking scavenger" - have some pride in yourself. she's supporting the person even as she yells at them. obviously she hasn't completely given up on this person, obviously she thinks that this person has the ability to be a good person. asking why someone thinks it's okay to be a parasite... i mean, it's kind of a valid question. saying the other person is lazy, not that big of a deal, they can fix that. i don't understand how expressing these things to someone is possibly more harmful than cutting them down behind their back, when they can't argue back...

    i do think it's also immensely important to note that we don't have Fe to create distance with, so ENFPs end up pushing with spiteful Fi and a barrage of Te. we don't have the advantage of being able to wall off our mental space with Fe and introvert into Ni - we have to continue to be receptive to our environments because they are our primary source of information (unless we are expected to change type overnight). so an explosive argument like that really is just a GET THE HELL AWAY STOP IT PLEASE NOW. our judgment requires introverting the Feeling around us, so we are introverting all that negativity that has been building - you can see how it would be very painful to experience something like this, and why we might react in an explosive sort of manner once we deem it appropriate to finally speak. and why it's so fast and intense. i assume this is also why NFPs seem to have a quicker "recovery" time than NFJs after an argument - we lack the ability to block off our environments, so it'd be logical for us to want to reconcile with the exterior as soon as possible.

    actually, i imagine this difference in our ability to create distance could explain a whole host of factors. will be interesting to think about.

    why Fi judgment is really not final

    i don't know if all Fi users believe this, but i have an enduring belief in the baseline goodness of all people, so even if someone has chosen to be a certain harmful way, that does not mean that they cannot change. hopefully it would. unless they've done something so terribly unforgivable that you just can't look back (i don't really know what that would entail personally), in all likelihood, your judgment is going to change. huxley pointed it out on another thread, that NFPs are rarely, if ever, really "done" with someone. i'm not sure why this "final judgment" seems so bad, it's just a conclusion at the time. it can change if circumstances change? and consider how that conditional was worded - if you do this, you are that. how do you stop being that? stop doing this. it's the same thing as Fe judging behavior, really. we just see it from a perspective of underlying moral principles.

    that's why this:
    if you dont take the initiative to feed and clothe them, you are a piece of trash
    is a conditional statement.

    afterword

    ideally, i think we would speak to others' faces (like Fi) when we are concerned, ahead of things getting to be too much for us to handle (like Fe), and we would not share too much judgment (like Fi), and we would not use harsh wording (like Fe).

    all in all i honestly don't think Fi and Fe are that different, we just conceptualize things very differently and end up starting at different places, which makes the processes look so different and makes rifts between us. but at the end of the day both sides are just interested in taking care of people.

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