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  1. #421
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    yeah, true.

    @ edit - ah, very interesting. i feel like i have a little underlying "thread" of hurt that is always present... i guess sort of like a sound wave, that can amplify based on situations.

    hey, after all, you and i are Ne doms, i have full faith in there being a loophole around this and our ability to find it and exploit it for every little bit of love and connection that it's worth
    The sound wave analogy is very apt-poki that little bit of pain is always there-it is the pain of the people around my, all of their little hurts. It is the pain of those I will never meet, those I can never help. When others around me are in a great deal of pain and I cant fix it....it feels like my soul has been stretched very thin and it being scraped over and over again. There are waves of pain of increasing amplitude.

    thank you skylights, your thoughts were very beautiful and comforting. hehehe, I love the idea of exploitation in the name of love ?!?

    Two more stories:
    My ISTP ex called at lunch. He started talking about his new girlfriend and said "She is acting like a hysterical psychotic nutcase because her stepdad just passed away". This sounds very harsh, especially given he is telling it to his ex wife about his new girlfriend. But I know his intent is good towards her and he is just ranting-and-he isnt asking me to value judge her. My values are not being bent in any way. I treat his comments as Te input and just nod and agree. Can you see how this differs from the MIL situation?

    last year I had an ENTP friend lose a job. I was hesitant to say anything at all because I knew that everything I said would be offensive-as can be seen by onemoretime's thoughts. So I sat down very calmly and tried to find my little window of Fe. It is a little place in my head, instead of turning left down the Te path...it is a tiny little trickle of an Fe path. Much of the time it isnt accessible, especially if I am stressed. It is not Fi in any way. It is a different state of mind and to reach it I have to release Te and actually work to get there mentally-like focused meditation. I wanted to be able to do this very much as I cared for my friend and wanted to try and find the right thing to say. Once there I just knew what to say, although it was clumsy. I just knew that certain things were okay and certain things were not okay to say, but not why. There were just "right" and fitting. I automatically asked questions, rather than statements. I automatically changed how I word things. Remembering those few moments, I understand that what you guys are saying is true for you-but different for us.

    The rules are not the same but it starts at a deep level.

  2. #422
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Doesn't work. Remember, our emotions are very much caught up in our objective thought process. There's just no way to separate it. I'm comfortable in my intent - once I've been bitten, and am taking responsibility, I'm not lying to myself about intent, nor to others. I expect you to believe me, because you're my friend. The second half - don't do it for me! That comes across as very patronizing. You talk that way to children, not other adults.

    The issue here is that wording things this way crosses circuits - I wouldn't know whether to comfort her for her troubles, or give practical advice. It's also giving off a sense of helplessness, instead of inner strength and resolve. Constantly saying "I don't understand" "I don't know" etc. doesn't give off a sense of competence, and makes efforts seem futile.
    hmmm, see, I guess I "feel" her inner values as strength. In our interactions she was very....pointed in some of her Fi values...and now she is looking outwards for advice and self correction-another sign of strength. She understand she needs and help and is looking for it-thus showing her initiative? By letting me know she doesnt understand, she is giving me permission to give her guidance and since she was motivated to seek the guidance herself via the question, there is a much higher chance she will accept the guidance I give and act upon it.

    It was like I pulled out a stopper in a wine bottle and suddenly she had all these questions and comments and she got up and wanted to start cleaning up her house with me. It was like she was desperate for guidance, needy almost....starving? I dunno.

    Orangey and (I think) Fidelia also noted that to give very direct directions seems patronizing. I suspect the MIL may feel the same way, so was doing her best and really upset that the women didnt respond.

  3. #423
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I am sorry, I just keep hurting people. I should have never started this thread or any of the others.

  4. #424
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ no, that's not true. Don't give up. I am hearing a whole whack of "giving up" in this thread too, from both sides, even from myself. I think there's a point where words just can't bridge the gap though, and IRL interactions would make all the difference. That doesn't make the situation hopeless though, by any stretch of the imagination.

    Every person in these threads is an awesome gift to help further personal growth and understanding of ourselves and each other.

    We have all gained so much from these threads, and I personally appreciate you putting yourself out here to help pave a way to greater understanding and appreciation. K?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #425
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I am sorry, I just keep hurting people. I should have never started this thread or any of the others.
    If it's any consolation, I rarely get *hurt* or even offended, and I'm certainly not hurt by anything in this thread. Frustration over feeling like the points I'm trying to get across aren't being heard or are washed aside? Sure. But frustration or irritation is a far cry from taking offense or having a more emotional, hurt-like response. (Although certainly frustration = an emotional response of a different sort)

    So using your example earlier today, I found it surprising that you thought Fe-ers were/are *offended* by your wording - 'offense' is something I don't experience much at all irl, or even here on the boards. What my reaction very well may be is: That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, or what this person is saying/offering isn't applicable to me, for reason x, y, z, or having a hard time even conceptualizing the angle with which someone is viewing something when I am looking at it from a completely different angle. But I'm not *offended* or hurt by it. Like... hurt is something I think only happens to me irl when I'm deeply invested in a 1:1 relationship with someone, or in a group, I guess. Although I can't think of recent group examples.

    So these boards/discussions don't affect me on a personal level other than frustration at either feeling I'm not being acknowledged or worrying that I'm not seeing the other persons' pov clearly and am committing the same crime back to them.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #426
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I am sorry, I just keep hurting people. I should have never started this thread or any of the others.
    Are you fishing for some kind of comfort/reassurance with this post, or are you genuinely being melodramatic?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #427
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I second what Cascadeco is saying. I may disagree with someone at times, but I am interested in the perspective and I also want them to argue back so that I understand where they're coming from. I really don't feel all that emotionally invested - I mean I care about the people here and I would feel badly if I felt they disliked ME, or that I had hurt them, but I don't find that these kind of discussions have any hurtful effect on me, even at their most heated. If you get responses that seem hurtful to you O, it is more that people don't understand yet where you are coming from or need more explanation from you. It's not that you are wrong to ever bring this kind of thing up.

  8. #428
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Are you fishing for some kind of comfort/reassurance with this post, or are you genuinely being melodramatic?
    That's a lovely oxymoron, genuinely melodramatic. And fishing for reassurance, equally comforting! With those words, you'll have O feeling better in no time!

    Read my response, that's along the lines of what she needs right now.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #429
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I am sorry, I just keep hurting people. I should have never started this thread or any of the others.
    You're doing nothing wrong. If I seem offended, I assure you, I'm not.

    Let's make it simple - if your mother in law is ranting, you don't have to validate her feelings. You just have to say "yeah, I hear you." That's it. That's all she wants. Even a general "life's a bitch" will go over well. Just stay general.

    OTOH, don't be too direct in commands until you know a person well, and know how they'll react. There are some people you can boss around with no problems, while others will be itching to fight back in some way. Just figure out who those are, and modify your approach accordingly.

  10. #430
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That's a lovely oxymoron, genuinely melodramatic. And fishing for reassurance, equally comforting! With those words, you'll have O feeling better in no time!

    Read my response, that's along the lines of what she needs right now.
    Eh, "genuinely melodramatic" is not really an oxymoron. Sure, one meaning of the word "melodramatic" does involve an element of histrionics, but there are other meanings that do not imply false affect. One can be genuinely melodramatic, for instance, when their genuine emotional reaction is out of proportion to the stimulus, or inappropriate to the occasion.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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