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  1. #401
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I'm not trying to imply that Fe users don't have values or that they don't take them seriously. Sorry if that's how it came across. Not my intention.

    Maybe it's just that Fi users FEAR that they are being asked to violate their Fi-values because they see everything through their internalized Fi value lens.

    But there is something different here. Could you take a stab at trying to explain the differences between Fe and Fi-ness in this area? Thanks in advance. I'd love to hear your assessment.
    I'm saying that, if there are differences, they are not rooted in Fe or Fi. If it has anything to do with functions, it's probably some combination of them that's related to specific types, not single functions in isolation. And even then, I think this kind of thing has more to do with an individual's level of self-esteem/confidence, and/or the culture in which they were raised, than it does with MBTI. I would venture to say that most people (on this forum, at the very least) view personal allegiance exactly the way that you described, since the only other way to view it would be that one compromises their beliefs/values/ideas in order to maintain personal allegiance first. And that's, well, a sort of slavish, dysfunctional way to be, and no Fe-user would say that they don't maintain their own values first, above and beyond any allegiance they may have to some other person.
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  2. #402
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And this is a big part of it ... Fi folks see this as two separate things, two separate people, and whether the MIL is justified or not does seem irrelevant. If I got involved, and saw that the ISFP mom was indeed taking advantage of generosity, I would amend my approach to her, but still I wouldn't feel comfortable judging her. See? Does that make sense?
    Not really, since the "Fi" faction of the thread has been perfectly comfortable exacting judgments of "cruelness" based on the MIL's actions. If it's okay for you to judge the MIL for judging the ISFP, then why is it not okay for the MIL to judge the ISFP for her actions? It seems like there's some perpetrator/victim type of logic that is influencing the "Fi" judgments here, and it's not being explicated (nor justified) properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I totally get the idea of allegiance, and being able to complain to someone who won't judge you for having nasty thoughts, and who can provide a wise sounding board - but why does it seem if the ISFP mom is a truly exhibiting bad behaviour that it makes it somehow more OK for anyone to say bad stuff about her in a venting session?
    Because then you know it IS purely venting and not true maliciousness. The extremity of someone's words can be excused if they do not harm the person towards whom they are directed, and if they are born out of a transitory state of emotional distress. And their state of emotional distress is more understandable if there are real reasons behind it; reasons that could conceivably lead to frustration or anger. If there are no reasons, and the person is simply being irrational out of personal dislike or something equally petty, then their state of emotional distress (which leads to extreme words being used during venting) is not understandable. They've simply invented problems out of thin air and expect others to sympathize with them, which is much more reprehensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To phrase this another way, what I hear some of the Fe folks generally saying is "Does the ISFP mom deserve this?" and if she does, it appears to give free reign to say anything or make any condemnation one sees fit. Is that accurate? Because that's what it sounds like. And that is generally offensive to Fi ears.
    Like I said above, if the ISFP mom has behaved in a way that could easily cause frustration, then it is more excusable for the MIL to have been in a temporary state of anger in which abusive words were produced. The question isn't whether the ISFP deserves the particular condemnations made verbally by the ISTP, but rather whether her actions could have led the ISTP to a state of emotional distress. If yes, then the ISTP can be temporarily excused for her verbal indiscretions, because she probably would not say such things if she were in a correct state of mind; and her "incorrect" state of mind is understandable because it was caused by the ISFP's frustrating actions, and it is most likely just a temporary build-up of emotion. If no, then there is no excuse for the ISTP, since she is simply causing her own problems by being an angry, judgmental jerk.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think this disconnect is perhaps related to the fact that Fe-Ti views actions and person as two separate entities, while Fi-Te views them as being the same. (I'm not probably saying it right, but I think there's at least a closer connection for you guys than there is for us).
    Are you saying this solely because the Fi/Fe identified people in this thread have agreed upon this distinction? I'm just saying that I don't think I'd feel safe using this information to assume what any random Fi or Fe user, unrelated to this thread, would think in this situation. And actually, I wouldn't assume that this actions-person distinction (or lack thereof) would apply to all Fe or Fi users, either. There may very well be some INFP out there that is perfectly capable and willing to judge actions as separate from the person. And there may very well be NFJs or SFJs that do not. Why do you trust that the factioning happening in this thread has anything to do with the reality of the functions?
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  3. #403
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    yes, excellent points. it's what fidelia said... the main lesson we should all learn is just to give one another the benefit of the doubt...
    Kinda. I’m bad about knowing when my point is clear or not. I was focusing on how looking to the E/I equivalent can make the other side directly understandable. This has already been pointed out, but I was trying to give a specific example. When someone else’s point of view becomes directly understandable, then it isn’t necessary to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    There seems so be a repeating pattern in these threads where the Fe/Ti (or Ti/Fe) side challenges the definitions of ‘Fe’ being put forth by the Fi/Te side; we are more inclined to see it as ‘final product’, and we get itchy when it isn’t complete- just as Fi/Te gets itchy when behaviors/values don’t seem congruent. And it’s like the Fi/Te side keeps coming back with something equivalent to, “right, that’s why Fi is better”. <- That's the repeating pattern. I’m guessing (maybe hoping) this is because it isn’t complete, which is hard for us to understand. As long as the Fi’ers try to slip some form of “right, that’s why Fi is better” into the recipe- Ti is going to reject it. Much in the way Fe venting seems like back-stabbing and deceitful behavior, because it isn’t presenting a face to the world where behavior and values are already congruent: the tendency to constantly bias definitions (which we mistake as finished product) seems seedy and manipulative, because they aren’t already accurate and fair.

    I was trying to think of a phrase to reciprocate “I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally.” The best I can come up with is, albeit crude: “I can’t dumb myself down enough to align with this thinking.” And I’ll be the first to admit, I’ve definitely felt that way sometimes. I’ll even admit to feeling that way when reading certain “right, that’s why Fi is better” comments. Silent alarms go off, and “Who exactly do you think you’re fooling?” pops into my head. But when I see its parallel equivalent- no benefit of the doubt necessary- I can instantly understand how maybe it’s about me being particularly sensitive to contradictory information.

    To be sure, there are Je’ers out there (on both the F and T ends) who aren’t open to new information- who really are putting forth declarations, and don’t want to do the work of assimilating any new information. But like I said: an intelligent, thoughtful person of any type will recognize a distorted funhouse reflection (short-sighted feedback) when they run into it, and [to add] they will also know good information when it crosses their path. A lot of times, and I mean *a lot* of times, the definitions put forth by team Fi/Te have a strong (and obnoxiously so at times) ‘Fi=pure benevolance, Fe=feigned benevolance’ aftertaste. If the definitions put forth were true, then- irl- Fi people would inherently be more thoughtful. And they may very well seem that way- to each other. But as far as how much of the population actually contributes more benevolance to the world- MBTI simply doesn’t matter as much as personal upbringing and individual factors. It’s almost alarming at times how people who claim to have some kismet connection to purer values are the ones who consistently slant definitions in their own favor. I’m just musing here- that maybe it’s because their definitions aren’t as done as we think they are? (i.e. They're just trying them on in front of a mirror?)

    Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that considering the E/I/T/F equivalent on the other side often makes this tomfoolery directly understandable, which makes it infinitely easier to empathize with than trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt. If only because it’s hard to give the benefit of the doubt to people who we consistently find offensive.

    [edit:] I can't shake the feeling that I made some of these words up, but spellcheck isn't indicating anything (other than the word 'spellcheck'). I'll have to come back later when I'm more awake to check.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    I think this disconnect is perhaps related to the fact that Fe-Ti views actions and person as two separate entities, while Fi-Te views them as being the same. (I'm not probably saying it right, but I think there's at least a closer connection for you guys than there is for us).
    Are you saying this solely because the Fi/Fe identified people in this thread have agreed upon this distinction? I'm just saying that I don't think I'd feel safe using this information to assume what any random Fi or Fe user, unrelated to this thread, would think in this situation. And actually, I wouldn't assume that this actions-person distinction (or lack thereof) would apply to all Fe or Fi users, either. There may very well be some INFP out there that is perfectly capable and willing to judge actions as separate from the person. And there may very well be NFJs or SFJs that do not. Why do you trust that the factioning happening in this thread has anything to do with the reality of the functions?

    It’s come up before- in a couple different places I believe- that the people who argue Fe points tend to identify more with ideas, whereas Fi’ers tend to identify more with values. So it seems reasonable to me there may be something to this notion that it’s harder for Fi’ers to digest incongruency between behaviors and stated values. Quite often, though, the people who surface to argue Fe points are aux, tert and even inferior Fe- so this may or may not be accurately representative of Fe. And it's not like a group of people this size is a fair representation of reality. I’d be surprised, actually, if Fe doms related more to ideas than to values. Dunno. I'm not saying I'm convinced it's a Fe/Fi thing, but I think it's feasible that such an inclination could be type related.
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  4. #404
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I was trying to think of a phrase to reciprocate “I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally.” The best I can come up with is, albeit crude: “I can’t dumb myself down enough to align with this thinking.”
    "I can't keep talking to you without making you feel like the idiot you are, because to validate your position would be personally offensive to me, and to reality."

  5. #405
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Orangey, I am sorry...but the venting isnt venting. It appears to be finalized expressed judgments shared with the rest of the church and all of her friends and family spanning several weeks in duration.

    Based on my observations of the family many of the claims are badly twisted and being used to justify her opinion.

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    It appears to be finalized expressed judgments shared with the rest of the church and all of her friends and family spanning several weeks in duration.
    That's the operative phrase.

    It could be that the mother is a very nice woman, who unfortunately, due to life circumstances, was never taught how to properly care for herself, much less for children. That doesn't mean that it still isn't a considerable drain on your M-i-L's resources, both material and emotional, to keep her propped up. You personally may have it in you to keep sacrificing in such a situation. Most people don't.

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    That's the operative phrase.

    It could be that the mother is a very nice woman, who unfortunately, due to life circumstances, was never taught how to properly care for herself, much less for children. That doesn't mean that it still isn't a considerable drain on your M-i-L's resources, both material and emotional, to keep her propped up. You personally may have it in you to keep sacrificing in such a situation. Most people don't.
    actually. To to totally diverge the thread.... Sorry my beloved Ti companions, it has to get a bit sloppy again.

    If I see another in need I will supply 1) emotional affirmation,2) followed by resources to resolve the immediate need,3) followed by guidance and suggestions. If the person fails to improve upon themselves,4) they get warnings they are not meeting expectations, 5)then they get cut off.

    Would I be incorrect in saying that most of us agree we would follow a similar path? Proetean seemed to follow this path much earlier in the thread... There is a universal goal of helping those around us that sort of follows a series of seemingly reasonable steps above?

    But as we follow that series of actions, our particular cognitive functions influence what and how we externalize the pattern.

    If I am helping a TJ or FP, then most things I do and say will be read correctly and boundaries I set and guidance I offer will be understood. My final judgments upon them will be pretty accurate.

    If I try and help a TP or an FJ, things become much more screwed up because the things I say and do get misunderstood and I misunderstand them, then we judge each other harshly. My final judgments are totally wacked and I will need to retranslate them because they are inappropriate.

    Let me give an example. I have a friend who and lost her job and got her car repoed. Below is how I would naturally, without thought, step through the steps above:

    Step 1) I feel really badly for you. I am a terrible planner myself so I totally get what you are saying about organizing bills. I once lost a job and I know how much it really sucks. Shit happens sometimes, and you are an awesome person, so dont let it get you down. We'll figure something out.

    Step 2) Do you need money for a down payment on a new car? Can I help you pay your bills or cover rent till you get paid again? Do you need a ride anywhere? (Notice how "logistical" all of this is-never commenting on the person-assuming no ill intent but just a run of bad luck)

    Step 3) ? You lost your job huh. Why did you lose it? What did you do wrong? Are you sure it was your bosses fault? What could you have done to get more guidance? You should have spoken with your bosses boss. Was it your own pride that prevented you from seeking more help? I totally know how you feel, though, been there. Did you look online to see if you could find resources to equip you with more information to complete the tasks assigned? What will you do next time so this doesnt repeat? Getting your car repo was a pretty bad move to be honest. Without a car you cant get to work or anything else. If it was me I would have placed a higher priority on getting the car paid and not eaten out so much. You werent opening your bills? Bad move to be honest.

    Step 4) You know I have been giving you a ride for two weeks now. What work have you been doing to get your own car? Have you made a down payment? Make sure and check it out at a mechanic's first. I can give you a ride for one more week, but after that you need to resolve the issue yourself. (These are the EXACT words I would say to the person)

    After crossing multiple boundaries....

    Step 5) I have been helping you for months and you have failed over and over again to act independently. I dont understand why you think it is okay to be a parasite on other people, but you need to get your shit together and quit using others. Grow a backbone, man up and get a fucking job. Have some pride in yourself and quite being a fucking scavenger. Your family comes before you and if you dont take the initiative to feed and clothe them, you are a piece of trash. It isnt simply needing help, but instead that you are too lazy to support yourself and plan for the future. (I would say these exact words. hehe, my brother and I have said words very much like this to my sister, an ESFP parasite. She is cut off from our families now.)

    Do my words and actions sound very different from what an TP or FJ would do? If I took the above steps with an FJ or TP I am assuming I would offend them-as many of them are now things I consciously DONT do, given I have learned they create offense from convos here.

    (To answer you time, I suspect the TP followed the above series of steps-in her own way-and is at her wits end. If I allow a perspective other than my own to be valid-then it seems her frustration is valid. She did everything she could. Symmetrically and fairly-if I allow the FP's perspective to be valid-than the FP likely misunderstood or misinterrpreted everything the TP was doing and responded in the opposite way the TP expected and even being offended by the TP. A self propagating cycle/death spiral of miscommunication was set up between the two with the relationship getting worse and worse with each interaction-with neither person actually at fault-but both feeling the other is TOTALLY at fault.)

  8. #408
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    Well I haven't thought in-depth about any of it, but upon initial reading, I don't find your progression offensive. Personally I am not sure how much of (1) would really be necessary for me. But (2) certainly wouldn't offend me - I actually appreciate action steps such as that - or at least the offer, even if I would end up not taking it up.

    Edit - I personally wouldn't be nearly as generous in terms of the timeframe, probably. So I'd reach step 5 much sooner. And, w/ regards to step 5, the words I used wouldn't be at all like that (I don't know if the words/phrases are how you would actually phrase irl) - I would just be like, 'I'm sorry, I can't continue doing this anymore, blah blah, etc etc, you're on you own at this point. Good luck.'

    Edit2 - the interesting thing about your step (4) is that you state you can give a ride for another week but then they're on their own. But *you don't follow through with that*. Why? To me, your not following through basically sets the Tone and the other person realizes they can in fact take advantage of you. So it's like an empty threat - if you continue driving them even if you said you wouldn't after 1 more week, then they of course some people are going to continue taking advantage until you do in fact go ballistic. So it's like..you state a boundary but you don't intend to enforce it? For me, when I say something like that, I mean it. Do you not mean it when you say it?

    So now that I think about it... I don't think there'd even be a Step 5 for me. It would end with 4.
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  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    actually. To to totally diverge the thread.... Sorry my beloved Ti companions, it has to get a bit sloppy again.

    If I see another in need I will supply 1) emotional affirmation,2) followed by resources to resolve the immediate need,3) followed by guidance and suggestions. If the person fails to improve upon themselves,4) they get warnings they are not meeting expectations, 5)then they get cut off.

    Would I be incorrect in saying that most of us agree we would follow a similar path? Proetean seemed to follow this path much earlier in the thread... There is a universal goal of helping those around us that sort of follows a series of seemingly reasonable steps above?

    But as we follow that series of actions, our particular cognitive functions influence what and how we externalize the pattern.

    If I am helping a TJ or FP, then most things I do and say will be read correctly and boundaries I set and guidance I offer will be understood. My final judgments upon them will be pretty accurate.

    If I try and help a TP or an FJ, things become much more screwed up because the things I say and do get misunderstood and I misunderstand them, then we judge each other harshly. My final judgments are totally wacked and I will need to retranslate them because they are inappropriate.

    Let me give an example. I have a friend who and lost her job and got her car repoed. Below is how I would naturally, without thought, step through the steps above:

    Step 1) I feel really badly for you. I am a terrible planner myself so I totally get what you are saying about organizing bills. I once lost a job and I know how much it really sucks. Shit happens sometimes, and you are an awesome person, so dont let it get you down. We'll figure something out.

    Step 2) Do you need money for a down payment on a new car? Can I help you pay your bills or cover rent till you get paid again? Do you need a ride anywhere? (Notice how "logistical" all of this is-never commenting on the person-assuming no ill intent but just a run of bad luck)

    Step 3) ? You lost your job huh. Why did you lose it? What did you do wrong? Are you sure it was your bosses fault? What could you have done to get more guidance? You should have spoken with your bosses boss. Was it your own pride that prevented you from seeking more help? I totally know how you feel, though, been there. Did you look online to see if you could find resources to equip you with more information to complete the tasks assigned? What will you do next time so this doesnt repeat? Getting your car repo was a pretty bad move to be honest. Without a car you cant get to work or anything else. If it was me I would have placed a higher priority on getting the car paid and not eaten out so much. You werent opening your bills? Bad move to be honest.

    Step 4) You know I have been giving you a ride for two weeks now. What work have you been doing to get your own car? Have you made a down payment? Make sure and check it out at a mechanic's first. I can give you a ride for one more week, but after that you need to resolve the issue yourself. (These are the EXACT words I would say to the person)

    After crossing multiple boundaries....

    Step 5) I have been helping you for months and you have failed over and over again to act independently. I dont understand why you think it is okay to be a parasite on other people, but you need to get your shit together and quit using others. Grow a backbone, man up and get a fucking job. Have some pride in yourself and quite being a fucking scavenger. Your family comes before you and if you dont take the initiative to feed and clothe them, you are a piece of trash. It isnt simply needing help, but instead that you are too lazy to support yourself and plan for the future. (I would say these exact words. hehe, my brother and I have said words very much like this to my sister, an ESFP parasite. She is cut off from our families now.)

    Do my words and actions sound very different from what an TP or FJ would do? If I took the above steps with an FJ or TP I am assuming I would offend them-as many of them are now things I consciously DONT do, given I have learned they create offense from convos here.

    (To answer you time, I suspect the TP followed the above series of steps-in her own way-and is at her wits end. If I allow a perspective other than my own to be valid-then it seems her frustration is valid. She did everything she could. Symmetrically and fairly-if I allow the FP's perspective to be valid-than the FP likely misunderstood or misinterrpreted everything the TP was doing and responded in the opposite way the TP expected and even being offended by the TP. A self propagating cycle/death spiral of miscommunication was set up between the two with the relationship getting worse and worse with each interaction-with neither person actually at fault-but both feeling the other is TOTALLY at fault.)
    Sounds very Te in my opinion.

    Dont recognize the bolded in regards to FP and TP communication, never have. I prefer not to place blame, but look at a situation itself and understand it and I get the impression thats what FPs do as well.

  10. #410
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Let's break this down...

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Step 1) I feel really badly for you. I am a terrible planner myself so I totally get what you are saying about organizing bills. I once lost a job and I know how much it really sucks. Shit happens sometimes, and you are an awesome person, so dont let it get you down. We'll figure something out.
    Those are the only two places where things might cause problems with me. Regarding being a terrible planner - (hypothetically, when pissy)great, that's the exact thing that got me into this mess. Cold comfort to know you're just as sucky at managing bills as I am. Re: I once lost a job - oh really? That's fine and dandy, but that's in the past, and I'm out of a job right now. (this goes along with a general interpretation of smugness behind the comment)

    Basically, and others can comment, I'm going to need to process my emotions on an individual basis before sympathy of that sort is going to sound anything but condescending. In this circumstance, it's much better to say "I'm so sorry. That must really sting. Anything I can do for you? How about I treat you to dinner on Thursday at your favorite place - that'll help you take your mind off of things."

    Step 2) Do you need money for a down payment on a new car? Can I help you pay your bills or cover rent till you get paid again? Do you need a ride anywhere? (Notice how "logistical" all of this is-never commenting on the person-assuming no ill intent but just a run of bad luck)
    In my case, you'd be better off waiting for me to ask you for these things. You're not just dealing with my issues at this point, you're also dealing with a person whose pride has been seriously wounded. No matter what, if you make me feel like I'm in an inferior position (regardless of whether it's reality or not), I'll be inclined to either leave the conversation entirely, or knock you down a peg.

    Step 3) ? You lost your job huh. Why did you lose it? What did you do wrong? Are you sure it was your bosses fault? What could you have done to get more guidance? You should have spoken with your bosses boss. Was it your own pride that prevented you from seeking more help? I totally know how you feel, though, been there. Did you look online to see if you could find resources to equip you with more information to complete the tasks assigned? What will you do next time so this doesnt repeat? Getting your car repo was a pretty bad move to be honest. Without a car you cant get to work or anything else. If it was me I would have placed a higher priority on getting the car paid and not eaten out so much. You werent opening your bills? Bad move to be honest.
    Now, if there's any distinction between Te and Ti, it's this. Yes, I thought of all of this. I thought of it exactly 500 milliseconds after the news. I've been thinking of it constantly since. The last thing I need is for you to remind me of all of this, and make me feel like I'm incompetent for making the wrong decisions.

    The better questions to ask at this point are "why" questions. Why did you buy such an expensive car? Why not check online, and see if there's anything available - here's a list of sites you can start at. Why didn't you go up the chain of command to get things taken care of? Let me get to the conclusion that it was my pride getting in the way. Only offer suggestions when asked for them.

    Also, notice the shift in tone - "I've been there" to "You're an idiot for not considering all these things". That first part will be ignored or interpreted as cheap talk so you don't have to feel like an asshole. I take notice of what percentage of the conversation is directed at what issues, and judge accordingly.

    Step 4) You know I have been giving you a ride for two weeks now. What work have you been doing to get your own car? Have you made a down payment? Make sure and check it out at a mechanic's first. I can give you a ride for one more week, but after that you need to resolve the issue yourself. (These are the EXACT words I would say to the person)
    In that situation, it would be much easier to say "hey, I can only give you a ride for one more week. Sorry man, but that's all I can do. If you need any other help in getting a car, let me know."

    Step 5) I have been helping you for months and you have failed over and over again to act independently. I dont understand why you think it is okay to be a parasite on other people, but you need to get your shit together and quit using others. Grow a backbone, man up and get a fucking job. Have some pride in yourself and quite being a fucking scavenger. Your family comes before you and if you dont take the initiative to feed and clothe them, you are a piece of trash. It isnt simply needing help, but instead that you are too lazy to support yourself and plan for the future. (I would say these exact words. hehe, my brother and I have said words very much like this to my sister, an ESFP parasite. She is cut off from our families now.)
    This is where the venting to friends comes in. After that, I can handle the situation more dispassionately. The cut-off point would sound something like this - "You found a place yet? Well, better do it quickly, because you can't stay here after the end of this week. No, I don't need to justify myself; this is my house, and you were my guest, and doing a pretty shitty job of it, at that. You made your bed, now lie in it. If you want me to help with finding hotels with cheap rates, let me know. In any case, start packing."

    My assumption is that they know what they're doing wrong, and I'm not going to tell them unless they ask.

    (To answer you time, I suspect the TP followed the above series of steps-in her own way-and is at her wits end. If I allow a perspective other than my own to be valid-then it seems her frustration is valid. She did everything she could. Symmetrically and fairly-if I allow the FP's perspective to be valid-than the FP likely misunderstood or misinterrpreted everything the TP was doing and responded in the opposite way the TP expected and even being offended by the TP. A self propagating cycle/death spiral of miscommunication was set up between the two with the relationship getting worse and worse with each interaction-with neither person actually at fault-but both feeling the other is TOTALLY at fault.)
    In that case, it's just a relationship that shouldn't have happened. It's a shame, but it's time to cut losses on both ends, and find a new arrangement.

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