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  1. #391
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think this disconnect is perhaps related to the fact that Fe-Ti views actions and person as two separate entities, while Fi-Te views them as being the same. (I'm not probably saying it right, but I think there's at least a closer connection for you guys than there is for us).

  2. #392
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think this disconnect is perhaps related to the fact that Fe-Ti views actions and person as two separate entities, while Fi-Te views them as being the same. (I'm not probably saying it right, but I think there's at least a closer connection for you guys than there is for us).
    That's what I'm seeing, too, and it looks like it's going to be hard to bridge that gap with each other. When you're starting from such a wildly different basic premise, it's hard to find a common way to view the situation.
    Something Witty

  3. #393
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To phrase this another way, what I hear some of the Fe folks generally saying is "Does the ISFP mom deserve this?" and if she does, it appears to give free reign to say anything or make any condemnation one sees fit. Is that accurate? Because that's what it sounds like. And that is generally offensive to Fi ears.
    A better way to characterize it is that in regard to the person in front of me at the time, my primary question is "is the person justified in expressing their emotion in this way?" That does involve a quick judgment as to the validity of that person's grievances, and that may come across as judging the object of derision (especially when immature). If so, then I'll let them keep venting, and support them as they process their emotions. However, if not, then the tone of the conversation changes entirely - that's when it becomes the dreaded "you're being irrational" conversation, in the hopes that providing some perspective will help calm the storm.

    Hope that helps.

  4. #394
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think this disconnect is perhaps related to the fact that Fe-Ti views actions and person as two separate entities, while Fi-Te views them as being the same. (I'm not probably saying it right, but I think there's at least a closer connection for you guys than there is for us).
    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    That's what I'm seeing, too, and it looks like it's going to be hard to bridge that gap with each other. When you're starting from such a wildly different basic premise, it's hard to find a common way to view the situation.

    I think Fi-Te sees actions and people as separate too, we tend to give people very much the benefit of the doubt ... just not our own. I think it's fair to say that Fi-Te strives for an internal consistency that matches what we do in the outer world. So when we see people who seem to stand for one thing but do another it is an inconsistency that is very visible to us, very apparent.

    Perhaps Fe-Ti strives for an external consistency that helps to harmonize and explain an internal environment?

    (Just guessing here.)

    And, most people I know, Fi or Fe users, if I believe you to be a "good" person and you have a little venting session to get some shi* off your chest, I am totally not going to change my opinion of you. No worries!

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    A better way to characterize it is that in regard to the person in front of me at the time, my primary question is "is the person justified in expressing their emotion in this way?" That does involve a quick judgment as to the validity of that person's grievances, and that may come across as judging the object of derision (especially when immature). If so, then I'll let them keep venting, and support them as they process their emotions. However, if not, then the tone of the conversation changes entirely - that's when it becomes the dreaded "you're being irrational" conversation, in the hopes that providing some perspective will help calm the storm.

    Hope that helps.
    Yes it does; thanks OMT for your thoughts
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #395
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think Fi-Te sees actions and people as separate too, we tend to give people very much the benefit of the doubt ... just not our own. I think it's fair to say that Fi-Te strives for an internal consistency that matches what we do in the outer world. So when we see people who seem to stand for one thing but do another it is an inconsistency that is very visible to us, very apparent.
    [...]

    And, most people I know, Fi or Fe users, if I believe you to be a "good" person and you have a little venting session to get some shi* off your chest, I am totally not going to change my opinion of you. No worries!
    ditto both. we see people and actions as separate but the character of the actions should eventually match up with the character of the person?

    i mean sometimes my best friend does things i don't really feel morally okay with, but she's still my best friend and i feel like she is an awesome person, but if she did too many things like that, then we probably wouldn't be best friends. we've talked about this before, in a non-MBTI related way, and i know the same holds true from her end and she's a Fe dom.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    There are lots of things my friends do that don't line up with my own choices or values system. But I can understand how they got there. They know by my sympathizing that I'm not condoning it or encouraging it, but nor am I going to judge them or turn them away. In these situations, the person, my friend, is the one that needs my help. How is that not one of the most important values a person can have? Helping a friend in need to work through something they're struggling with? If I don't help them the way they need to be helped, then it seems an important value is being compromised. A friend is left feeling alone, judged and rejected because I didn't want to get in there in a way they could understand. I think both perspectives can be honored in situations like this. Try to empathize in any way you can. Then offer your unique perspective. Your friend will know what your values are. Offering sympathy in no way negates that.
    i agree that there has to be a way of honoring both perspectives.

    i think it's really tricky to tell, though, where a line is crossed... in this situation, there is a moral imperative (to me, at least) to protect the sanctity/dignity/etc of the family that is being talked about... and really, even if one is venting, there is no real need to devalue someone... to a certain extent we exaggerate when we vent... but i don't know. it's very hard to word this sometimes. it's just that something somewhere, something Fi, apparently, reaches a point at which it broadcasts a resonant Feeling of this is wrong throughout my body. it's the same thing i considered "conscience" when i was little, a sort of primal danger alert. and i consider myself fairly tolerant in general, but if i never told my friends when i felt like they were crossing a line, i don't think i would be a very good friend...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I totally get the idea of allegiance, and being able to complain to someone who won't judge you for having nasty thoughts, and who can provide a wise sounding board - but why does it seem if the ISFP mom is a truly exhibiting bad behaviour that it makes it somehow more OK for anyone to say bad stuff about her in a venting session?

    To phrase this another way, what I hear some of the Fe folks generally saying is "Does the ISFP mom deserve this?" and if she does, it appears to give free reign to say anything or make any condemnation one sees fit. Is that accurate? Because that's what it sounds like. And that is generally offensive to Fi ears.
    yeah, that too. onemoretime's explanation makes sense.

  6. #396
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I hear what y'all are saying, and it kinda confirms for me my choice to vent in front of people I know will understand where I'm coming from, and won't be conflicted or feel like they're compromising themselves to support me.
    Something Witty

  7. #397
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ you will have to poll them ahead of time "Are you an Fi user?" ... One of my bestest friends is an INFJ, and we have no troubles at all, venting or emo-ing lol. I think, although there are trends, friendships can go beyond any generalizations - so don't count us Fi peeps out!

    Sending much luv & on V'Day!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #398
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    But in this situation-recognize that my end point is universal condemnation of the individual under question. Once damned, there is no coming back. So to pass an Fi judgment of that severity is something done after a great deal of thought and investigation. I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally. Damn. That's significant. I must make sure the judgment is correct-because of the consequences of the judgment upon the person in question.

    Thus-as Tallulah noted as being frustrating-I will not agree and will actually try and objective evaluate the situation. If it is my ENTP buddy bitching about her boss, I will be chill and just support her-but when you are asking me to morally condemn a mother who you are seeking to help-I cant do that.

    I realize this is an interpretation issue, which can be worked around, but it takes time to build those strategies.
    Nowhere close to being caught up, but I’m posting anyway because it’ll take me a while. Insert usual apology for if this has been said.

    Just as a point of interest, I read this and immediately thought of how sometimes it gets brought up that function theory seems to be taken too seriously- that in discussion, it’s attributed to too many different things. It’s the old ‘if it’s being said aloud, it should be more of a finished product’ problem. Te’ers are saying it aloud to bounce off each other, and Ti’ers get itchy to point out that it isn’t as close to being ‘fact’ or ‘end product of knowledge’ as others keep making it out to be. I mean, I use the terms regularly myself- because they (Fe, Fi, Te, etc) are the closest terms available to discuss the underlying phenomenon- but I get incredibly itchy to point out how vague it all truly is when I hear someone cramming too much into it.

    So the way it disturbs Orobas to hear her MIL so cavalierly disparage a person (*seemingly*), it disturbs Ti’ers to have the definition of Fe get so cavalierly butchered (*seemingly*). For whatever reason, we sorely crave other people to do the work in their own head- and it actually offends our sensibilities to hear it being done aloud.

    How about this (to make ‘the mirror’ more directly understandable to Te’ers): Te users need ‘the mirror’ for this- to bounce theories that aren’t as complete off of ‘others’ to see how they sound. You don’t come up with as much of a finished product on your own. This is exactly what’s happening with Fe users: it sounds like a final condemnation, but it’s bouncing preliminary notions off others to see how it looks. And just like a Te’er doesn’t want to be considered ‘stupid’ for needing to do this work aloud, a Fe’er doesn’t want to be considered ‘mean’ for doing this work aloud. It’s not that Te’ers latch on to the first piece of information that gets reflected back at them- ditto for Fe’ers, Fe’ers are not all mindlessly clutching whatever values happen to be in the area at the time. An intelligent Te’er will recognize intelligent feedback when they get it, just as a compassionate Fe’er will recognize compassionate feedback when they get it: it’s just that the process needs to be done aloud, to be bounced off of others to see how it looks. An intelligent, thoughtful person of any type will recognize a distorted funhouse reflection (short-sighted feedback) when they run into it.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  9. #399
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    ^^

    Good stuff, Z!
    Something Witty

  10. #400
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think, although there are trends, friendships can go beyond any generalizations
    the main reason i am on typoc is because it is helping me learn to communicate better with my family and friends. in less than half a year my relationship with my INTP dad has very much improved, and i'm understanding my FJ friends better as well. my four closest friends are ESFJ, ENFJ, ENFJ, and ESFP... we might not be the same type, but they are who i want to go to first when i have a problem because i love and trust them. though i totally understand why you would feel as you do, tallulah. i think it might be especially true that it would be hard to deal with across the F-T boundary in addition to the Ti/Fe-Te/Fi boundary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    For whatever reason, we sorely crave other people to do the work in their own head- and it actually offends our sensibilities to hear it being done aloud.

    How about this (to make ‘the mirror’ more directly understandable to Te’ers): Te users need ‘the mirror’ for this- to bounce theories that aren’t as complete off of ‘others’ to see how they sound. You don’t come up with as much of a finished product on your own. This is exactly what’s happening with Fe users: it sounds like a final condemnation, but it’s bouncing preliminary notions off others to see how it looks. And just like a Te’er doesn’t want to be considered ‘stupid’ for needing to do this work aloud, a Fe’er doesn’t want to be considered ‘mean’ for doing this work aloud. It’s not that Te’ers latch on to the first piece of information that gets reflected back at them- ditto for Fe’ers, Fe’ers are not all mindlessly clutching whatever values happen to be in the area at the time. An intelligent Te’er will recognize intelligent feedback when they get it, just as a compassionate Fe’er will recognize compassionate feedback when they get it: it’s just that the process needs to be done aloud, to be bounced off of others to see how it looks. An intelligent, thoughtful person of any type will recognize a distorted funhouse reflection (short-sighted feedback) when they run into it.
    yes, excellent points. it's what fidelia said... the main lesson we should all learn is just to give one another the benefit of the doubt...

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