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  1. #371
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I'm not sure I get "loud," being a fairly soft-spoken person, but I can see myself getting more insistent if I feel like instead of hearing what I'm actually trying to say, someone is trying to get me not to be "mean," or insisting on reframing the situation. I'm open to hearing alternative points of view, but not if I feel like the person is not listening to me at all. And I definitely understand being fair and playing the devil's advocate, but if my friend is defending the other party exclusively when they don't even know the other party, and not giving me the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to get frustrated and irritated, yes. Absolutely. I may get frustrated and show it, or I may just shut down, and be tempted to re-evaluate how well we know each other.

    As to the last bit, yes, I identify with that. I tend to retreat, especially because Fi-ers don't air things out in the same language I do, and I'm more likely to feel picked on or scolded, and then explode (and I don't want to explode). I can confront my ENFJ friend, we have it out and it blows over in less than 5 minutes, because we process things similarly. It really just depends on the particular person I'm having issues with.
    I appreciate this feedback, Tallulah. I feel like I'm brainstorming trying to figure out the different dynamic here and I can't quite pin it down yet... but it's there and maybe I'll stumble upon it.

    I know that I've had to really do a lot of soul searching regarding my refusal to disengage when I get the ignore, doorslam, etc. Whether I deserve it or not (and since I'm a perfect person, I know I've never deserved it before. <Insert self-effacing expression here.> ), I guess I feel like ignoring someone or doorslamming them is morally wrong on some level. In other words, the very act of ignoring me violates one of my deeply held Fi values. I feel it largely selfish to ignore a person rather than confront the situation head on. It is a sign of respect and thoughtfulness for another person's well-being to tell them that you're having a problem with them, even if it is sometimes unpleasant to do this.

    I've come to understand the Fe ignore sooooo much better in the past six months and now I think I'd respond a little differently. But this is how I responded beforehand. And this is why I might feel free to ignore the ignore.

    ^^^^^^^^^^
    Ignoring the ignore doesn't always fair so well for me. Why do I do this? 'Cause usually I instantly pick up on the ignoring / silent response. But then I choose to bypass it. In fact, there's a part of me that relishes bypassing it. Which maybe isn't me at my best. This is probably driven by my Fi not wanting anything to impinge upon its self-expression.

    If I'm completely honest with myself, there is this little 8th grader inside of me that says (while stomping her foot), "Well screw them. Why should I respect their boundaries when they've treated me so disrespectfully that they would ignore my feelings and well-being by ignoring me."

    I only bring this up because I think it important to understand what's going on in the head of the person who is ramping up the dialogue in the face of increasing silence. I think Fi and Fe users have differing answers to these questions:

    Why does silence not always work? When does it work? Why do Fe users and Fi users choose to ignore a silent response. Or maybe sometimes they don't see it because it's delivered in a manner that they don't understand.

    So back to Orobas' situation, it sounds like the mother-in-law's increasing bluntness is causing her stress. So how does one stop this dynamic from happening when you find yourself stuck in this kind of situation. What would you say to the other party in order to re-orient the conversation to a more productive level? Would you take a different tack depending on if the person was an Fi or an Fe user?

    I don't have the answers to these questions, but I feel like they are worth asking.
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  2. #372
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    To me it seems like you would ask a Fe user questions that allow them to get stuff off their chest and you to understand better what is going on, but still orient towards a solution.

    I wrote a whole bunch about this in the thread SilkRoad started about allowing people to feel what they feel. I think perhaps it may be relevent.

  3. #373
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    But in this situation-recognize that my end point is universal condemnation of the individual under question. Once damned, there is no coming back. So to pass an Fi judgment of that severity is something done after a great deal of thought and investigation. I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally. Damn. That's significant. I must make sure the judgment is correct-because of the consequences of the judgment upon the person in question.

    Thus-as Tallulah noted as being frustrating-I will not agree and will actually try and objective evaluate the situation. If it is my ENTP buddy bitching about her boss, I will be chill and just support her-but when you are asking me to morally condemn a mother who you are seeking to help-I cant do that.

    I realize this is an interpretation issue, which can be worked around, but it takes time to build those strategies.
    Yeah, this is where things get a little harder to differentiate. A healthy Fe user is not asking you to be an ally without having your own opinions. What we're asking you to do is hear that we're frustrated and validate those feelings, THEN give us some perspective. It's only when you judge us as being mean without trying to understand what could have caused the frustration in the first place, thereby giving us credit for not being heartless bastards, that we get irritated (and sometimes disappointed). It's a fine line, admittedly. We actually DO want your opinion, but we also want to know you are actually hearing us, and are sympathizing with the feeling, rather than judging us for having it. After that, we can work on whether the feeling is valid. See? You can actually use our need to know whether our feelings are valid or not to help us see another perspective. But we have to feel heard and validated first.

    Edit: To clarify, when I say sympathize with the feeling, I don't even mean, "appraise the situation like we would," or "feel about the mother like I do." I mean, "remember what it's like to be in a situation like this, where you feel like you're doing a lot to help someone, but you feel like they might be ungrateful," or something like that. Feel what it's like to be in that situation, regardless of whether you approve of her assessment.
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  4. #374
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I suppose because of Ne, patterns are blatant, painfully obvious for me, like slam my head into the wall obvious. But I also fall down stairs and have totaled three cars, so much for Se I suppose.


    This made me laugh Orobas! Oh my Se using friends can never know how much it sucks that ENFP's have Se as their 8th function... the least accessible of all the mental functions.

    If it weren't for my ISTP, I'd never find my keys, and I'd probably run into walls.
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  5. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    To me it seems like you would ask a Fe user questions that allow them to get stuff off their chest and you to understand better what is going on, but still orient towards a solution.

    I wrote a whole bunch about this in the thread SilkRoad started about allowing people to feel what they feel. I think perhaps it may be relevent.
    Fidelia, I'll check this thread out. Thanks!
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  6. #376
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    But in this situation-recognize that my end point is universal condemnation of the individual under question. Once damned, there is no coming back. So to pass an Fi judgment of that severity is something done after a great deal of thought and investigation. I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally. Damn. That's significant. I must make sure the judgment is correct-because of the consequences of the judgment upon the person in question.

    Thus-as Tallulah noted as being frustrating-I will not agree and will actually try and objective evaluate the situation. If it is my ENTP buddy bitching about her boss, I will be chill and just support her-but when you are asking me to morally condemn a mother who you are seeking to help-I cant do that.

    I realize this is an interpretation issue, which can be worked around, but it takes time to build those strategies.
    You have to understand. It's not just a mother who she is seeking to help. It's a mother who she is seeking to help, but is not making any visible effort to show her appreciation of what others have sacrificed for her. Without an apparent willingness to give back, it's hard to determine whether the mother is truly thankful, or merely exploiting their generosity.

  7. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I think Tallahah and esoteric captured what I meant by loud-really more insistent and forceful due to a feeling of frustration. I think proteanmix and Fidelia were actually the ones who told me I seemed oblivious and pointed out the increasing frustration and more blunt Fe assertions they were making. And yes Fi and Fe (and Ti and Te) all have their flavors.

    Cascadeco has a good point regarding these issues being universal. So universal frustration at not being heard-translated into four different languages depending upon the cognitive function being employed. And as usual, if it isnt our particular native tongue, we misunderstand it. lather, rinse, repeat. I dont mean to be obnoxious....but how can you guys doubt these patterns at this point? I suppose because of Ne, patterns are blatant, painfully obvious for me, like slam my head into the wall obvious. But I also fall down stairs and have totaled three cars, so much for Se I suppose.
    Does that mean you cant see past the patterns?

  8. #378
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Yeah, this is where things get a little harder to differentiate. A healthy Fe user is not asking you to be an ally without having your own opinions. What we're asking you to do is hear that we're frustrated and validate those feelings, THEN give us some perspective. It's only when you judge us as being mean without trying to understand what could have caused the frustration in the first place, thereby giving us credit for not being heartless bastards, that we get irritated (and sometimes disappointed). It's a fine line, admittedly. We actually DO want your opinion, but we also want to know you are actually hearing us, and are sympathizing with the feeling, rather than judging us for having it. After that, we can work on whether the feeling is valid. See? You can actually use our need to know whether our feelings are valid or not to help us see another perspective. But we have to feel heard and validated first.
    Yes! In fact, I wouldn't want the other person to just assimilate my points of view or they would be of no use to reflect back what I "look" like or offer anything helpful to me either. I'm already really putting myself out there though by expressing something that I'm worried or upset about. I want to see people in a good light. I'm trying to reconcile conflicting emotions to do something better with them so I don't cause harm. I haven't made up my mind that someone is good or bad, so much as trying to figure out how all the pieces of them fit together and then what implications that has for how I should relate to them. Sometimes I'm trying to decide when there are conflicting emotions, how much percentage of weighting each of those emotions should get to see the total picture accurately.

    If I am acting uncharacteristically harsh or unreasonable, then I'd be grateful for the other person to realize that this is not what I am normally like and ask enough questions to understand why I am reacting in this way. I need questions that help me determine for myself things like "How long have you felt this way?" "What message do you feel like the other person is sending that is bothering you so much?" "What things have you already tried? How did it work?" What options do you figure you have from your perspective?" "What would you see as the idea outcome of this for both parties involved?" "How do you think you could get there". By asking questions like this, you are still allowing me to be in control of what is going on and you are tacitly validating my feelings and helping to clarify the underlying issues that need to be solved. This is also a time where rather than advice, you can offer some alternative perspectives or motives etc that I may not have considered, so that I am working with more complete information. You can offer another way of looking at it or add information that puts it into a better context. Neither withdrawing, or mutely judging my judgementalness is helpful or kind to me. I need to feel that you can see that I am normally a credible, competent, kind person before I trust that you are going to have perspective that is going to be beneficial to me.

  9. #379
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Cascadeco has a good point regarding these issues being universal. So universal frustration at not being heard-translated into four different languages depending upon the cognitive function being employed. And as usual, if it isnt our particular native tongue, we misunderstand it. lather, rinse, repeat. I dont mean to be obnoxious....but how can you guys doubt these patterns at this point? I suppose because of Ne, patterns are blatant, painfully obvious for me, like slam my head into the wall obvious. But I also fall down stairs and have totaled three cars, so much for Se I suppose.
    To the bolded - We're talking about different things when it comes to 'patterns'. I'm not doubting patterns in *focus*/topic/concern of conversation. What I was addressing are *behavioral* things - modes of communication/ 'loudness'. Because 'loudness' - the mode of communication and interaction - may have nothing whatsoever to do with cognitive functions. At all. i.e. Everyone get frustrated, everyone can be 'Loud'. So 'Loudness' / bluntness has nothing at all to do with Fe or Fi. Both might be blunt for different *reasons*, or focusing on different things, but I'm sorry, the manner in which frustration is shown can be the same across all different types, or will vary within type. Which is why I gave the example of how myself, as an INFJ, and my friend, as an INFJ, will output/react to frustration in extremely different ways.

    So, not to speak for the other 'guys' who are failing to see the patterns at this point, but for myself, I take issue to assumptions made about someones' cognitive function based on their behaviors. And there seems to be a lot of that going on in this thread and others.

    When I read your post on the ISTP's 'loudness', which caused you to retreat, it seemed you were bothered by her loudness itself, and attributing her loudness to Fe. This is what I took issue to, becase that sort of behavioral trait I do believe is universal. Now, if you instead are taking issue not so much with her 'loudness', but rather WHAT she is talking about, then it's not the behavior/loudness itself that is bothering you, but rather the content of what she is delivering. And content is a totally different thing.

    And this is me getting frustrated.
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  10. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You have to understand. It's not just a mother who she is seeking to help. It's a mother who she is seeking to help, but is not making any visible effort to show her appreciation of what others have sacrificed for her. Without an apparent willingness to give back, it's hard to determine whether the mother is truly thankful, or merely exploiting their generosity.
    This has been said time and time again in this thread, but apparently it is irrelevant to "Fi judgments" about the words the ISTP used in her rant.
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