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  1. #361
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hmm.. often hear an FJ will try and explain something to me and I dont acknowledge it-either I dont agree or I sincerely dont understand that a line was being drawn. So they get "louder" and eventually, by the time I notice there is an issue, are Fe screaming in frustration and really upset with me.

    I suspect MIL is in a cycle kinda like this. I am not agreeing with her, but dont argue her judgment, and will counter her judgments with facts or observations rather than agree or ask questions. So she just keeps stating the judgments more and more bluntly....and I just withdraw more an more...thus she gets louder and louder...
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    To be honest, I don't even understand this 'getting louder' behavior. Is this just repeating what she's said previously because she thinks you aren't hearing/understanding what she's saying? And/or she doesn't like the responses you are giving or thinks based on what you're saying that you're not understanding her points?? Is this something you've encountered with other Fe's in your life, or is just your MIL? If the latter, I wouldn't even attribute to an Fe/Fi thing at all - sounds like her own behavioral pattern or something like that.

    Actually even with the former, a behavior does not equal a cognitive function/focus/weighting process, either. So the act of getting more vocal/loud isn't tied directly to Fe OR Fi. ANY individual - no matter what their cognitive function makeup - could get louder or more frustrated if they feel communication/understanding isn't happening, and some people (Fe-ers or Fi-ers) will be liable to react to this by retreating (which would be your snail example, which is something that I would tend to do too), or else by becoming even more vocal/loud to match the original persons' loudness (which is something both my INFJ friend and her INTJ boyfriend do - both of them escalate into anger/offense when it comes to arguments or misunderstandings, whereas I'm opposite, I tend to withdraw and detach, etc). My point being - this interactional style/ conflict-resolution style goes beyond cog. functions and often ties into ones own trigger points and sensitivities and how they have learned to cope with those triggers.
    I think I understand what Orobas means by "getting louder." I've noticed this kind of dynamic between Fe and Fi users before. However, it's not always the Fe user who gets louder. Fi users can get louder, too.

    When I'm on the receiving end of an Fe user's increasingly loudness, it feels just as Orobas described it: It's sort of like the Fe user doesn't feel validated by my silence, or they think I missed the point and they get increasingly more and more blunt with me until they just boil over with anger toward me. (Whew that is always stressful when that happens. And I'm often completely surprised by the eruption coming my way.)

    When the dynamic is reversed and I, an Fi user, is getting louder with an Fe user... well, it doesn't feel like I'm getting increasingly blunt. More like I'm getting increasingly "truthy." In other words, I ramp up my Fi truthiness activity to the point where I'm calling it like I see it, consequences be damned. (And, I can tell it's stressful to the Fe user, but it's like I can't stop what I'm doing.)

    So I guess I agree with Cadesco that increasing loudness isn't necessarily related to cognitive functions. But it seems to me that the way increasing loudness manifests and the way it is received, IS related to cognitive function. As the stress increases, our cognitive functions sort of "run home to momma" and revert to just doing what they each do best... in this case of getting louder, Fe makes increasingly blunt statements about the situation as they see it, and Fi gets more truthy and authentic as it defines truth and authenticity.

    For the person on the receiving end of the "loudness" there have to be differences, too. I'm not so sure I fully understand these. It seems like Fe users are far more likely to avoid confrontation via the avoid, the ignore, and the doorslam. I think Fi users are more likely to want to hash it out and clear the air. (I could be talking from my Te perspective here, but it feels right to me.)

    Anyone have any thoughts on this? Does it ring true to you?
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I think I understand what Orobas means by "getting louder." I've noticed this kind of dynamic between Fe and Fi users before. However, it's not always the Fe user who gets louder. Fi users can get louder, too.

    When I'm on the receiving end of an Fe user's increasingly loudness, it feels just as Orobas described it: It's sort of like the Fe user doesn't feel validated by my silence, or they think I missed the point and they get increasingly more and more blunt with me until they just boil over with anger toward me. (Whew that is always stressful when that happens. And I'm often completely surprised by the eruption coming my way.)

    When the dynamic is reversed and I, an Fi user, is getting louder with an Fe user... well, it doesn't feel like I'm getting increasingly blunt. More like I'm getting increasingly "truthy." In other words, I ramp up my Fi truthiness activity to the point where I'm calling it like I see it, consequences be damned. (And, I can tell it's stressful to the Fe user, but it's like I can't stop what I'm doing.)

    So I guess I agree with Cadesco that increasing loudness isn't necessarily related to cognitive functions. But it seems to me that the way increasing loudness manifests and the way it is received, IS related to cognitive function. As the stress increases, our cognitive functions sort of "run home to momma" and revert to just doing what they each do best... in this case of getting louder, Fe makes increasingly blunt statements about the situation as they see it, and Fi gets more truthy and authentic as it defines truth and authenticity.

    For the person on the receiving end of the "loudness" there have to be differences, too. I'm not so sure I fully understand these. It seems like Fe users are far more likely to avoid confrontation via the avoid, the ignore, and the doorslam. I think Fi users are more likely to want to hash it out and clear the air. (I could be talking from my Te perspective here, but it feels right to me.)

    Anyone have any thoughts on this? Does it ring true to you?
    But blunt is "truthy". Some Fi users are just "truthy" more often then others. I am confused as to the difference between "truthy" and blunt. Arent they both "what one believes" and you end up with 2 people getting loud in regards to what they believe until one person wins?

    I get loud to accomplish something, and getting my point across is not always the reason.

  3. #363
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I think I understand what Orobas means by "getting louder." I've noticed this kind of dynamic between Fe and Fi users before. However, it's not always the Fe user who gets louder. Fi users can get louder, too.

    When I'm on the receiving end of an Fe user's increasingly loudness, it feels just as Orobas described it: It's sort of like the Fe user doesn't feel validated by my silence, or they think I missed the point and they get increasingly more and more blunt with me until they just boil over with anger toward me. (Whew that is always stressful when that happens. And I'm often completely surprised by the eruption coming my way.)

    When the dynamic is reversed and I, an Fi user, is getting louder with an Fe user... well, it doesn't feel like I'm getting increasingly blunt. More like I'm getting increasingly "truthy." In other words, I ramp up my Fi truthiness activity to the point where I'm calling it like I see it, consequences be damned. (And, I can tell it's stressful to the Fe user, but it's like I can't stop what I'm doing.)

    So I guess I agree with Cadesco that increasing loudness isn't necessarily related to cognitive functions. But it seems to me that the way increasing loudness manifests and the way it is received, IS related to cognitive function. As the stress increases, our cognitive functions sort of "run home to momma" and revert to just doing what they each do best... in this case of getting louder, Fe makes increasingly blunt statements about the situation as they see it, and Fi gets more truthy and authentic as it defines truth and authenticity.

    For the person on the receiving end of the "loudness" there have to be differences, too. I'm not so sure I fully understand these. It seems like Fe users are far more likely to avoid confrontation via the avoid, the ignore, and the doorslam. I think Fi users are more likely to want to hash it out and clear the air. (I could be talking from my Te perspective here, but it feels right to me.)

    Anyone have any thoughts on this? Does it ring true to you?
    Negative emotions are burdensome. A burden shared is a burden halved. Often, I just want someone to get pissed along with me, since that lets me know that if it gets worse, I've got an ally in that situation.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Negative emotions are burdensome. A burden shared is a burden halved. Often, I just want someone to get pissed along with me, since that lets me know that if it gets worse, I've got an ally in that situation.
    One of the things I use alot is "just blame me", because I normally dont care what other people think about me. Its my way to share or take the burden. I have several other methods I use as well to "take" the burden. I do not share negative emotions though for this reason.

  5. #365
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I think I understand what Orobas means by "getting louder." I've noticed this kind of dynamic between Fe and Fi users before. However, it's not always the Fe user who gets louder. Fi users can get louder, too.

    When I'm on the receiving end of an Fe user's increasingly loudness, it feels just as Orobas described it: It's sort of like the Fe user doesn't feel validated by my silence, or they think I missed the point and they get increasingly more and more blunt with me until they just boil over with anger toward me. (Whew that is always stressful when that happens. And I'm often completely surprised by the eruption coming my way.)

    When the dynamic is reversed and I, an Fi user, is getting louder with an Fe user... well, it doesn't feel like I'm getting increasingly blunt. More like I'm getting increasingly "truthy." In other words, I ramp up my Fi truthiness activity to the point where I'm calling it like I see it, consequences be damned. (And, I can tell it's stressful to the Fe user, but it's like I can't stop what I'm doing.)

    So I guess I agree with Cadesco that increasing loudness isn't necessarily related to cognitive functions. But it seems to me that the way increasing loudness manifests and the way it is received, IS related to cognitive function. As the stress increases, our cognitive functions sort of "run home to momma" and revert to just doing what they each do best... in this case of getting louder, Fe makes increasingly blunt statements about the situation as they see it, and Fi gets more truthy and authentic as it defines truth and authenticity.

    For the person on the receiving end of the "loudness" there have to be differences, too. I'm not so sure I fully understand these. It seems like Fe users are far more likely to avoid confrontation via the avoid, the ignore, and the doorslam. I think Fi users are more likely to want to hash it out and clear the air. (I could be talking from my Te perspective here, but it feels right to me.)

    Anyone have any thoughts on this? Does it ring true to you?
    I'm not sure I get "loud," being a fairly soft-spoken person, but I can see myself getting more insistent if I feel like instead of hearing what I'm actually trying to say, someone is trying to get me not to be "mean," or insisting on reframing the situation. I'm open to hearing alternative points of view, but not if I feel like the person is not listening to me at all. And I definitely understand being fair and playing the devil's advocate, but if my friend is defending the other party exclusively when they don't even know the other party, and not giving me the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to get frustrated and irritated, yes. Absolutely. I may get frustrated and show it, or I may just shut down, and be tempted to re-evaluate how well we know each other.

    As to the last bit, yes, I identify with that. I tend to retreat, especially because Fi-ers don't air things out in the same language I do, and I'm more likely to feel picked on or scolded, and then explode (and I don't want to explode). I can confront my ENFJ friend, we have it out and it blows over in less than 5 minutes, because we process things similarly. It really just depends on the particular person I'm having issues with.
    Something Witty

  6. #366
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ strangely, let's say proteanmix and I had a big argument in person - I am pretty sure her and I would go at similarly, a big mutually agreed-on 'xplosion, and then we'd work it out to get things aired and back to normal. Her ability to just say it plain, and mine to truthiness in a conflict situation would be .... compatible.

    Just a thought, naturally I wouldn't really want to get in a big argument with protean, I am a 9 after all! Peace is preferable.

    But ironically I would be willing to do battle to get there.

    So to me it's more than just language, or Fe should vent to Fe and vice versa ... there are other dynamics too me thinks, as you say Tallulah. INFJ's do process differently.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #367
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    But blunt is "truthy". Some Fi users are just "truthy" more often then others. I am confused as to the difference between "truthy" and blunt. Arent they both "what one believes" and you end up with 2 people getting loud in regards to what they believe until one person wins?

    I get loud to accomplish something, and getting my point across is not always the reason.
    This is an excellent point, Poki, that I hadn't considered. Maybe it's more the subject matter of the bluntness. If I think about it, Fe users seem to make increasingly blunt statements about the objective facts of a situation. Not usually assessments about the inner essence of the people involved.

    I'm feeling around here but it seems sort of like an Fe user might say, "So and so did this, and that was an *ssholish" thing to do." Whereas an Fi user is increasingly blunt with their Fi judgments about the essence of a person. It's sort of like the Fi user is speaking in archetypes and universal truths like: "So and so did this, and they have no compassion for other people." (Read that this evaluation gets at the very nature of the person. It critiques their inner essence.)

    ^^^^^
    Seems like there is a subtle difference between these two statements. Perhaps the Fe user is noting facts and observations of their outside world. The Fi user is making a statement about their judgment of the core essence of another person. So you're right that they are both blunt. It's just a different focus area.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  8. #368
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I think Tallahah and esoteric captured what I meant by loud-really more insistent and forceful due to a feeling of frustration. I think proteanmix and Fidelia were actually the ones who told me I seemed oblivious and pointed out the increasing frustration and more blunt Fe assertions they were making. And yes Fi and Fe (and Ti and Te) all have their flavors.

    Cascadeco has a good point regarding these issues being universal. So universal frustration at not being heard-translated into four different languages depending upon the cognitive function being employed. And as usual, if it isnt our particular native tongue, we misunderstand it. lather, rinse, repeat. I dont mean to be obnoxious....but how can you guys doubt these patterns at this point? I suppose because of Ne, patterns are blatant, painfully obvious for me, like slam my head into the wall obvious. But I also fall down stairs and have totaled three cars, so much for Se I suppose.

  9. #369
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I agree, EW. I think that is why sometimes Fe users venting will seem like a condemnation of the person, when I don't think Fe generally speaks in those terms. It's trying to effect a certian kind of action, more than pronounce an irrevocable judgement.

    I also think an interesting distinction was drawn between respect and trust. I don't trust anyone I don't respect. While I don't trust all people I respect, I can't have trust without respect. Therefore, someone who lies habitually, or treats some people unethically as a matter of course is not someone that I want to get close to or have much to do with, even if they have other elements of their personality that are positive. I've noticed that Fi is bigger on trust and less on respect. In some ways it cuts people more slack and in others it has higher expectations.

  10. #370
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Negative emotions are burdensome. A burden shared is a burden halved. Often, I just want someone to get pissed along with me, since that lets me know that if it gets worse, I've got an ally in that situation.
    But in this situation-recognize that my end point is universal condemnation of the individual under question. Once damned, there is no coming back. So to pass an Fi judgment of that severity is something done after a great deal of thought and investigation. I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally. Damn. That's significant. I must make sure the judgment is correct-because of the consequences of the judgment upon the person in question.

    Thus-as Tallulah noted as being frustrating-I will not agree and will actually try and objective evaluate the situation. If it is my ENTP buddy bitching about her boss, I will be chill and just support her-but when you are asking me to morally condemn a mother who you are seeking to help-I cant do that.

    I realize this is an interpretation issue, which can be worked around, but it takes time to build those strategies.

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