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  1. #351
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    I dont understand this avoidance very much at all. Can you not live in the moment enough to get past it or will she just not let go of talking about it or what? Maybe its an Fi trait to not be able to just ignore it. I will just start ignoring or not really showing any interest at all and eventually the person gets it. Personally I just reason/try to understand with them and then let go, give suggestions, questions, etc. What is it with ENFPs desire to help people beyond what help the other person will accept? I am not attacking, but wondering why. Take "what is it" as a question, not any type of judgement. There are certain things I will not give up as well.
    Hmm.. often hear an FJ will try and explain something to me and I dont acknowledge it-either I dont agree or I sincerely dont understand that a line was being drawn. So they get "louder" and eventually, by the time I notice there is an issue, are Fe screaming in frustration and really upset with me.

    I suspect MIL is in a cycle kinda like this. I am not agreeing with her, but dont argue her judgment, and will counter her judgments with facts or observations rather than agree or ask questions. So she just keeps stating the judgments more and more bluntly....and I just withdraw more an more...thus she gets louder and louder...

    Fi is like a snail withdrawing from an unpleseant stimuli. You poke the snail, it gets all fussy and whiny and withdraws. Then after a little while, it sorts itself out, gets over being whiny, and re-emerges. However with MIL, she just keeps getting "louder" and I just keep retreating more and more-I am not getting time to get over the Fi offense and sort through things. The snail keeps getting poked. I am having problems remaining objective and trying to be logical and distanced from my emotions. I want to recognize her good intent, but I have to have time to translate what she says based upon what you guys have taught me.

    MIL does not need to change, not my goal at all. MIL's treatment of me is annoying at times but if forgiven as I am tough and can tolerate a lot. MIL's hurt of another is much, much harder to not be offended by.

  2. #352
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    This is a nice way of saying "How can I modify my communication to get "my" point across". The first step is to get that person to "want" to see your point. They have to want to learn from you. You have to work on how that person percieves you, what that person thinks of you. Focusing on communication is only a part of the puzzle.

    edit: someone who doesnt respect you wont even try to see your point of view and they will never learn from you.
    After half an hour, the FP mom was asking me many questions and actively seeking my guidance on how to raise her kids. It frightened me as I dont feel like the best mom at times and I realized she was trusting me to provide her guidance-she seemed very enthusiastic to learn more.

    It seems more that first they must trust you-then they will be willing to listen? Wait...I said "trust" and you said "respect". I dont know if that is significant but I recall seeing it before somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I find that I get my point across best when I'm concentrating on listening to the other person.
    oddly-it is actually the opposite approach which gained her trust I think. I didnt realize what was going on as to be honest I have never paid attention to the interaction pattern between myself and another FP before.

    I will try and write up some thoughts in the next few days to summarize what seemed to work and perhaps why. It makes me feel I should do this stuff more often.

  3. #353
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hmm.. often hear an FJ will try and explain something to me and I dont acknowledge it-either I dont agree or I sincerely dont understand that a line was being drawn. So they get "louder" and eventually, by the time I notice there is an issue, are Fe screaming in frustration and really upset with me.

    I suspect MIL is in a cycle kinda like this. I am not agreeing with her, but dont argue her judgment, and will counter her judgments with facts or observations rather than agree or ask questions. So she just keeps stating the judgments more and more bluntly....and I just withdraw more an more...thus she gets louder and louder...

    Fi is like a snail withdrawing from an unpleseant stimuli. You poke the snail, it gets all fussy and whiny and withdraws. Then after a little while, it sorts itself out, gets over being whiny, and re-emerges. However with MIL, she just keeps getting "louder" and I just keep retreating more and more-I am not getting time to get over the Fi offense and sort through things. The snail keeps getting poked. I am having problems remaining objective and trying to be logical and distanced from my emotions. I want to recognize her good intent, but I have to have time to translate what she says based upon what you guys have taught me.

    MIL does not need to change, not my goal at all. MIL's treatment of me is annoying at times but if forgiven as I am tough and can tolerate a lot. MIL's hurt of another is much, much harder to not be offended by.
    To be honest, I don't even understand this 'getting louder' behavior. Is this just repeating what she's said previously because she thinks you aren't hearing/understanding what she's saying? And/or she doesn't like the responses you are giving or thinks based on what you're saying that you're not understanding her points?? Is this something you've encountered with other Fe's in your life, or is just your MIL? If the latter, I wouldn't even attribute to an Fe/Fi thing at all - sounds like her own behavioral pattern or something like that.

    Actually even with the former, a behavior does not equal a cognitive function/focus/weighting process, either. So the act of getting more vocal/loud isn't tied directly to Fe OR Fi. ANY individual - no matter what their cognitive function makeup - could get louder or more frustrated if they feel communication/understanding isn't happening, and some people (Fe-ers or Fi-ers) will be liable to react to this by retreating (which would be your snail example, which is something that I would tend to do too), or else by becoming even more vocal/loud to match the original persons' loudness (which is something both my INFJ friend and her INTJ boyfriend do - both of them escalate into anger/offense when it comes to arguments or misunderstandings, whereas I'm opposite, I tend to withdraw and detach, etc). My point being - this interactional style/ conflict-resolution style goes beyond cog. functions and often ties into ones own trigger points and sensitivities and how they have learned to cope with those triggers.
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  4. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Actually even with the former, a behavior does not equal a cognitive function/focus/weighting process, either. So the act of getting more vocal/loud isn't tied directly to Fe OR Fi. ANY individual - no matter what their cognitive function makeup - could get louder or more frustrated if they feel communication/understanding isn't happening, and some people (Fe-ers or Fi-ers) will be liable to react to this by retreating (which would be your snail example, which is something that I would tend to do too), or else by becoming even more vocal/loud to match the original persons' loudness (which is something both my INFJ friend and her INTJ boyfriend do - both of them escalate into anger/offense when it comes to arguments or misunderstandings, whereas I'm opposite, I tend to withdraw and detach, etc). My point being - this interactional style/ conflict-resolution style goes beyond cog. functions and often ties into ones own trigger points and sensitivities and how they have learned to cope with those triggers.
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  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Well, one of the reasons that I participate so much in these Fe-Fi threads is that in teaching, I'm frequently dealing with immature Fi users and it's helpful to at least have an idea of what language is more effective for them. In my close personal life, there are a couple of cases of Fi users who are greatly impacting their kids by what they do/don't do, but I realize that anything I would naturally do to try to improve the situation is not going to be received as being loving. I care too much to just shrug my shoulders and walk away, so right now I'm kind of at an impasse.

    That makes a lot of sense. When I was teaching, I had to learn to teach both in an Ni (here's how it all fits together) and an Si (here are the step-by-step repeatable instructions on how to solve a problem). The first thing I needed to do was drop the notion that there is something wrong with the step-by-step way. Physics is a very intuitive field, largely because there are only a few intuitive ideas to understand (the laws of physics), but a very large number of ways those ideas combine in specific cases for specific solutions/recipes. But that doesn't make the intuitive understanding "better", just easier. When running an experiment, all of those nitpicky details come to the fore and are more important than the simple theory(ies) being tested.

    I would suggest that in your Fi-teaching case, the trick is realizing that the usual Fe-style motivators don't work: it's either going to bounce off of the Te as being unreasonable/illogical or off of the Fi as being too intrusive.

    The Te is interested in "what works", so all of the extra fluff of why it's such a great idea to do whatever falls flat. It's enough that it works: that makes it a good idea. Te, especially in the Fi perspective, is how to handle all those things that one has to do that one would really rather not do. Emotion is detached, and you just do them. Sticking emotion context on them only confuses.

    The Fi is where the motivation lies, but it comes from within, not from without. So you build motivation in Fi (in others) by allowing them to try and fail without fearing failure. Not that you coddle them - rather you can say things in a "harsher" way without emotion, pointing out what was done right and wrong, without any hint that one is displeased. That it's OK to fail, but one just keeps working at it. You teach them by letting them be themselves, within limits.

    I'm trying to think how my favorite salsa instructor does it (ExFP). She just points out what I'm doing wrong by making it clear how to do it right, that it's just a matter of work and practice (Te), and mostly just letting me dance and letting her find things to improve.
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    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #356
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ Would it be easy for Fe to successfully communicate an outer neutral confidence when masking an inner annoyance, displeasure or disappointment though? That's the kind of disconnect I sense all the time, that people's words and actions don't match their inner state and I think it's hard for others to conceal. Some people are very polished, and certainly many are genuine in their desire to be helpful, but that dissonance is still detectable and does indeed make a difference. It feels disingenuous, "fake" - even when I know it's not meant that way, it's still disconcerting and I think lots of Fi users get stuck on the "fake" part.

    It's worth mentioning too that Te also can come across negatively - impatient, overbearing, critical - so, it is hard to deliver these messages in the most affirming, effective way no matter the pathway, and Fi tends to take them to heart, reading a lot of personal negatives in when unwarranted.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  7. #357
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    OK, this is probably a dumb question, but what the heck is an MIL?
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  8. #358
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Mother-in law
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #359
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    Thanks! That was just killing me because I couldn't figure it out.
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  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    After half an hour, the FP mom was asking me many questions and actively seeking my guidance on how to raise her kids. It frightened me as I dont feel like the best mom at times and I realized she was trusting me to provide her guidance-she seemed very enthusiastic to learn more.

    It seems more that first they must trust you-then they will be willing to listen? Wait...I said "trust" and you said "respect". I dont know if that is significant but I recall seeing it before somewhere.



    oddly-it is actually the opposite approach which gained her trust I think. I didnt realize what was going on as to be honest I have never paid attention to the interaction pattern between myself and another FP before.

    I will try and write up some thoughts in the next few days to summarize what seemed to work and perhaps why. It makes me feel I should do this stuff more often.
    For me trust is when a person has had opportunities to screw you over, let you down, etc. and they have not taken them. To me that is someone you can trust. For me respect is basically me wanting to hear your point of view. I respect your decisions, your input, your thoughts, your feelings. Respect to me doesnt mean the person is right, but means that they have input that I value. I think that respect and trust are different for every person based on what matters to that person.

    I can respect someone that lies, I wont trust them though.

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