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  1. #341
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I found this fascinating, and am still having a hard time wrapping my head around the Fe/Ti perspective on this.

    On one level this is not so different from the way I approach my own venting. Oftentimes, I am sending out a feeler for feedback from my friends about [insert the object of my venting here]. But at the same time, I would never want to state my objections in such a manner that they would be thought of as self-evident statements of fact. I would be horrified at myself if I thought I were doing this. So it sounds like the endgame isn't that different, but the style of delivery is.
    Hee, this is how I feel sometimes when an ENTP states an Ne-based idea that they haven't thoroughly vetted through Ti yet. They sound so sure of themselves, and it makes me wonder about their judgment. And then I realize, "Ohhhh, they're still playing with it." Maybe if you think about Fe venting that way it will help you to wrap your head around it? We might sound sure of ourselves, but we're really just getting it all out of our heads. We tend to (try to) choose wisely who we vent in front of, because it impedes the process to have to make a bunch of qualifiers to make the listener feel more comfortable.
    Something Witty

  2. #342
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Hee, this is how I feel sometimes when an ENTP states an Ne-based idea that they haven't thoroughly vetted through Ti yet. They sound so sure of themselves, and it makes me wonder about their judgment. And then I realize, "Ohhhh, they're still playing with it." Maybe if you think about Fe venting that way it will help you to wrap your head around it? We might sound sure of ourselves, but we're really just getting it all out of our heads. We tend to (try to) choose wisely who we vent in front of, because it impedes the process to have to make a bunch of qualifiers to make the listener feel more comfortable.
    This is a cool observation. It implies that Ne can come off as a bit Te-ish, since this is exactly the same issue xNTPs have with Te.

    And yes, the parallels between Fe vs Fi and Te (and Ne, as you note) vs Ti are useful for putting oneself in the other's shoes, just switch F for T or vice versa and see how you'd judge it.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #343
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    All of these responses have left me really confused. It all sounds like you guys are saying the same thing on these last few pages.

    I spent the yesterday and today with the family. The funny thing is I am so emotionally upset and overwhelmed...yet I have already developed multiple plans of action that seem to exist in isolation from the emotional turmoil. The emotions and angst/offense/confusion just keeps churning with no clean resolution, but in the meantime there is work to do and several good suggestions for the family.

    I will be avoiding the MIL as much as possible as I can only twist my mind so much.

  4. #344
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Would there be any value in building some suggestions for the Fe/Ti users on the thread about ways they can help/influence the direction of growth and development in an FP, without hitting some of the defensive mechanisms seen by the mom and the Fi users in this thread?

    It seems that if one truly seeks to help another grow/improve/become more responsible, then it might be of value to learn to modify communication to better reach the target audience-even if it seems nonsensical and ridiculous?

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    All of these responses have left me really confused. It all sounds like you guys are saying the same thing on these last few pages.

    I spent the yesterday and today with the family. The funny thing is I am so emotionally upset and overwhelmed...yet I have already developed multiple plans of action that seem to exist in isolation from the emotional turmoil. The emotions and angst/offense/confusion just keeps churning with no clean resolution, but in the meantime there is work to do and several good suggestions for the family.

    I will be avoiding the MIL as much as possible as I can only twist my mind so much.

    I dont understand this avoidance very much at all. Can you not live in the moment enough to get past it or will she just not let go of talking about it or what? Maybe its an Fi trait to not be able to just ignore it. I will just start ignoring or not really showing any interest at all and eventually the person gets it. Personally I just reason/try to understand with them and then let go, give suggestions, questions, etc. What is it with ENFPs desire to help people beyond what help the other person will accept? I am not attacking, but wondering why. Take "what is it" as a question, not any type of judgement. There are certain things I will not give up as well.

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Would there be any value in building some suggestions for the Fe/Ti users on the thread about ways they can help/influence the direction of growth and development in an FP, without hitting some of the defensive mechanisms seen by the mom and the Fi users in this thread?

    It seems that if one truly seeks to help another grow/improve/become more responsible, then it might be of value to learn to modify communication to better reach the target audience-even if it seems nonsensical and ridiculous?
    This is a nice way of saying "How can I modify my communication to get "my" point across". The first step is to get that person to "want" to see your point. They have to want to learn from you. You have to work on how that person percieves you, what that person thinks of you. Focusing on communication is only a part of the puzzle.

    edit: someone who doesnt respect you wont even try to see your point of view and they will never learn from you.

  7. #347
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Would there be any value in building some suggestions for the Fe/Ti users on the thread about ways they can help/influence the direction of growth and development in an FP, without hitting some of the defensive mechanisms seen by the mom and the Fi users in this thread?

    It seems that if one truly seeks to help another grow/improve/become more responsible, then it might be of value to learn to modify communication to better reach the target audience-even if it seems nonsensical and ridiculous?
    I would find that helpful. I run into this frustration in practical terms in real life.

  8. #348
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    I find that I get my point across best when I'm concentrating on listening to the other person.

  9. #349
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I would find that helpful. I run into this frustration in practical terms in real life.
    I would be interested in how you see it come up in real life. I find it more often in online conversations, and would like more real-life examples from others.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I find that I get my point across best when I'm concentrating on listening to the other person.


    Exactly.

    The problems appear when one make assumptions that one does not realize one is making. The point of listening is to find these assumptions and drop them. There is also a reciprocity aspect: others will usually respond to evidence of one's listening by listening to one more closely.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #350
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Well, one of the reasons that I participate so much in these Fe-Fi threads is that in teaching, I'm frequently dealing with immature Fi users and it's helpful to at least have an idea of what language is more effective for them. In my close personal life, there are a couple of cases of Fi users who are greatly impacting their kids by what they do/don't do, but I realize that anything I would naturally do to try to improve the situation is not going to be received as being loving. I care too much to just shrug my shoulders and walk away, so right now I'm kind of at an impasse.

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