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  1. #331
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Also realize that when it comes to an Fi-user ( I know you're not specifically talking aout those but, i wanted to add this), it's often very hard to translate that 'hunch', that feeling of 'something's off!' to logic. It takes work, gives us migraines and tires us out. All we know is that "something doesn't *feeeeel* right!" Now, you may be right that it's totally unrelated, whatever is setting off that feeling, but we need time to reflect and pinpoint the reason for that thing feeling off..and that can take a while, especially if it's driven by one of our fears
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross
    I don't entirely trust my feelings either, as OA said earlier we take them as as source of possibly useful information but at the same time we accept their fallibility. And if I trusted my emotional instincts 100% I would never leave the house! I see their irrationality and in analysing each one, it is my job to evaluate whether they are reasonable or not and to choose whether I act in accordance with them or counteract their pull. I have also found that even when your feelings are wrong there is something to be learned from them - it may be as simple as recognising your inner fears or prejudices but it allows you to take conscious action to avoid such problems in the future. I guess I also fear that if I don't examine my faults and mistakes, I shall be doomed to repeat them over and other - I want to keep improving and developing as a person and an unconscious existence keeps me stagnant.
    I'm wondering if we're not as far off each other as we think. This, essentially, is what I mean when I say that a feeling needs to be "justified." It's not to say I don't have a right to feel it, or that I should feel guilty for feeling it. It's to get a second opinion as to whether it's my own fears that are clouding my judgment or not, and therefore, affecting others unnecessarily. That might be something you're able to do internally, but we can't. We need our mirrors.


    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I don't really see it as wallowing although people often mistake it for this. But then I suppose you think it wallowing in the same way I see Fe as being afraid to face the darkness inside them and seek out real self-improvement and growth. I can detach myself from my 'negative' emotions to a degree, without any misery brought about by examining them - so there isn't necessarily any pain to wallow in. The understanding brings such comfort and direction to me because the unknown, and therefore, the untamed inside me is much more terrifying. It puzzles me that Fe don't seek this knowledge when it could help them, but then I suppose if you can so easily disregard your feelings, there is no need to overcome them.
    Believe it or not, that's what we're doing when we're venting, a lot of the time. Figuring out if we have the "right" to be offended by someone, or if it's just our own insecurities, jealousies, biases coming out to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    *mulls*

    Could you be triggered to show that 'justified' part if you felt it was imperative to make them understand that what they are feeling would be disastrous to act upon? As in...not taking the time to validate their feelings coz there's more at stake? for that matter, what happens if the answer to your 'is this justified'-question is no? Do you share that with them? How so?
    (please don't quote this part; I might remove it later)

    <removed>

    I think the key is to validate the feeling and the frustration, and then gently suggest there are alternate ways of viewing the situation. I'd never just jump right in and make her feel like she's wrong. She's venting to me because I'm her friend, and it's a safe place. If I went straight to correcting her perception, I'd feel like a crappy friend. If I didn't correct it, I'd feel like a crappy friend.
    Last edited by Tallulah; 02-19-2011 at 04:27 AM.
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  2. #332
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Pondering what to say to you onemoretime ...

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Once again, it's not what you're saying - it's the way you're saying it; i.e. exactly what you're criticizing me for.

    I guess it didn't seem authoritative to me, because I figured you would naturally question my authority on the subject. Satine provided a good example of that - praising the effort, while providing a few pointers on my technique. What's more, she did this on my profile page, which is a far more appropriate forum for this sort of correction, since there's much less risk of public shaming.

    Just to be clear, "that makes sense" doesn't mean "this is what has to be true". It's more like "I'm OK with this as a hypothesis, because it's internally consistent." I did not do a good job of conveying that, and I apologize.
    First, there is no need to apologize to me. I shared my thoughts on your posts because they raised some concerns for me, but that doesn't mean I didn't appreciate your effort to convey what was in your heart and share it in a style to try to reach Fi users in general. And I got straight to the point, I suppose some people call that Te style.

    Maybe it's hard to read Te without hearing Fe when you're an Fe user. And vice versa. I hear Fe like it's Te sometimes. Maybe that's the crux of the whole OP.

    At any rate, it wasn't my intention to cause you any pain or embarrassment here, and if I did, I apologize for that. You intrigue me; I wanted to press you a wee bit, to see how you would expand if I took your posts head-on. And I am impressed that you kept your head on, nicely done.

    You may wonder why your approach there resonated less with me. As a quick summary, I recognized potential pitfalls contained within those words you shared, and not only how they can be mistaken for fact but how they can be grabbed onto by the idealistic. So, if it's helpful for future reference, if a "mature" INFP were to share this level of conclusion to the outside world, it would be done with less dramatics (I think) and only after a great deal of intuiting, reflection and direct research into the situation itself. The kind of Fi-out you shared had more of an ENFP flava to it (love to my ENFP cousins).

    And to you once again, onemoretime. Thanks for your thoughts. I hope you share more.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #333
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Ha, that sounds fun. No, I can't toss them out the window. Until they are solved, they are present. Someone else's rationalizations bear less weight than my own comprehensive analysis. I don't (or can't) rely on bouncing this off another person and them telling me I am overreacting (for example), because that doesn't actually make the emotion go away. Only my internal process and understanding leads there. When I talk about my feelings, that lets me get further faster sometimes.
    I think something that may be important to point out is that someone else’s feedback is only useful to me when it helps me make sense of the emo mess I’m feeling. It’s not like I can use the advice of the first person to cross my path to get rid of unpleasant feelings- I WISH that were the case. It isn’t as easy as someone suggesting to me that I’m overreacting. I would need for someone to explain why they think I’m overreacting. If they can provide details that hadn’t occurred to me on my own- but are relevant to the situation at hand- then their feedback can be really useful. Indeed, if someone tells me I’m overreacting- but I get the distinct impression they haven’t actually put much thought into my point of view, and are giving me this feedback merely to calm me down in some generic sense- it can be like throwing gasoline on the fire. The emotion only goes away when a solid reason is provided to help me see why it’s a waste of energy. And the reason I’m bouncing it off of someone (as many have said, I’m careful who I bounce things off of) is to find out if it is a waste of energy. If it isn’t- then I feel ‘justified’ to take necessary action to make it go away. But my point here is: just because someone else says it’s a waste of energy, doesn’t mean I’m going to believe it. So someone else’s rationalizations will always bear less weight than my own comprehensive analysis too, it’s just that I’m more impatient with the process? I look outside myself for possible clues on getting the conclusion faster because I want it to be done. Still- if all the pieces don't slide into place, then the feedback isn't useful to me.

    I am inclined to agree with what Tallulah and Fidelia touched on a few pages ago, about how digging around in emotion often seems unnecessarily taxing. I’ve got a short fuse for someone dumping bucket after emo-filled bucket on me. I don’t think there’s anything ‘wrong’ with needing to do it, but I think people who need that should get it from each other (Tallulah has already said this, I’m agreeing). Like it was discussed in some other Fe/Fi thread a while back: Je’ers don’t like hearing about the infinite little details that lead to some final conclusion, they just want the conclusion. I can understand wanting to bounce Ji off of someone: I love delving into details with someone else who also loves the same kind of detail, because it’s an opportunity to sate that introverted urge to find the perfect answer while extroverting it. It’s the proverbial chocolate meets peanut butter moment.

    My point overall here is, it sounds to me like a lot of us are actually describing the same thing from different ends. It’s just that Fe’ers are more impatient with the process? They want the emo to be decided, they want the conclusion faster- they don’t want to put all the time into it themselves when others might have answers. We don’t relish in exploring that stuff the way Fi’ers do?

    It’s probably worthwhile at this point to toss in a ‘half-baked’ disclaimer, ^this is all something occurring to me now. It’s just that it seems like we’re all describing something more similar than not.

    [edit:]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I'm wondering if we're not as far off each other as we think. This, essentially, is what I mean when I say that a feeling needs to be "justified." It's not to say I don't have a right to feel it, or that I should feel guilty for feeling it. It's to get a second opinion as to whether it's my own fears that are clouding my judgment or not, and therefore, affecting others unnecessarily. That might be something you're able to do internally, but we can't. We need our mirrors.

    Okay, whew, I'm not the only one. I think. It's late, and I can be a penultimate misunderstander- but I think Tallulah is kinda saying something similar here. My post just adds: (and I can't stress this enough) mirrors only work when we trust the mirrors judgment, and the information has to make sense or we can't use it- but in the end it's the most efficient way to check ourselves?
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #334
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Yep, I will sign off on all that! ^^

    Also, I wanted to say that I definitely agree with fidelia about feeling the negative emotions physically, too. To the point where I feel ill, anxious, shaky, etc. So in a way, it is something that needs to be purged, and the sooner, the better. Having a new perspective or an action to take is the only thing that lifts it. Examining the emotion for the emotion's sake only makes me feel worse. I don't know what to DO with that information in the situation I am currently in. I do feel like I try to head off the warning signals to the negative stuff early, so I'm dealing with a manageable thing rather than a monster emo blowout. It's when I'm blindsided that I go into freakout vent mode. It feels like spinning out of control on an icy road.
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  5. #335
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Ok..this thread is growing at a rate that I am regretting not being able to answer to it all, but I will try. I'll add this for now to what tallullah and Z are saying:

    It does seem like we need the same thing, just different focus. It seems that Fe-users want an answer as it soothes their need for a goal, the direction to take, whereas Fi-users cannot assimilate something alien to them. Something foreign. While inherently, what the other you're venting to is saying might be the right thing, it doesn't get recognized by Fi as being true, yet at least. To get it absorbed by the Fi-worldview, I at least need to assimilate that thing on my own terms, which means fleshing out where my Fi went 'wrong' in the first place so I can ID it next time I encounter it...if it was wrong at all! Having an instant solution is nice and all, but it leaves me with a bundle of insecurities and questions..which is why I prefer someone provoking questions in my head so I can find my way through my own logic and 'reroute' Fi.

    This is why I'll do the same with others..and sometimes they do get annoyed with me when all I do is ask them questions and bounce their own insecurities back at them till they figure it out. All they want is an easy answer already, whereas I don't want to impose my own views and decisions on the situations onto them...as to me, that worldview is highly individualistic and I'm unlikely to have a roadmap to your emotional world. If I do have a roadmap (because I know them rather well for instance), I'll be more bold and feel more secure in giving them Te-instructions as to what to do. Often, if I sense someone is incapable of getting out of an emotion, or has a situation they want my advice on quickly, I'll do a small interview, with a bunch of questions to get a better feel on the situation, but also on how they work as a person, so I can read the roadmap for them and spare them the agony of having to figure it out themselves. However, that involves risks of alienation, not being understood properly if not done properly, and making the person feel even more alone if it fails, as well as giving them the feeling like you're trying to get rid of em. If done without enough care..it can mess the person up even more, I find.


    Come to think of it...I've known many NFJs to do the same. But it costs time and investment to do this...and it seems that the shortcut version (often favoured by TPs, ime) of it rubs some Fi-users the wrong way, whereas it seems to satisfy and provoke thoughts in Fe-users (probably becoz the Ti helps them figure things out from there onwards). When you cannot demonstrate understanding of the roadmap within, your contribution doesn't have the right 'cookie' to get in, basically. And I wonder, if that's true for Ti-users as well. I can see that...I mean, when I'm brainstorming a topic, and I don't connect all the dots logically because I'm brainstorming and still working out the kinks, they get on my ass about not making sense, whereas I assume that if I give them the blueprints they can work out the kinks themselves and don't get why they're getting their panties in a twist

    Meanwhile Fi-users tend to see what I'm aiming to achieve and look at the data I've provided, skip over the gaps and get what I'm trying to say, while helping me work out the kinks, as they can read the core of it. It's why I often find INTJs slightly smiling at me while they pick up my brainstorming and make it more logically solid, and effectively 'translate' it for Ti-users.
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  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ ^ This is a pattern I have noted here and in other threads - the Fe / Ti or Ti / Fe vantage point is the one that stresses this too. So, me pointing out the obvious, that the functions do not control behaviour per se, is patently obvious, yet here we are, presented with similar patterns time and time again.

    I ask then, why? Can you explain the pattern outside functions? Because the pattern seems somewhat defined by them.
    Thats because its an NeSi trait to objectively define patterns. Its an SeNi trait to subjectively define patterns. Defining patterns based on behaviour is an Ne trait as behaviour itself IMO is objective. Lets take "thinking" for example. Ni, Si, Ti thinking is all different, but we can easily classify it as internal thinking and group it as Ti yet how does Fi fit in? From an objective stand point someone goes inside there head and comes up with a solution. Ok is that really introverted thinking? I am sure that INTJs and ISTJs do this alot. Hell ISTJs are known as picky when it comes to accounting, etc. so they may spend alot of time in there head thinking. Is it an Si thinking pattern, an Ni thinking pattern, or a Ti thinking pattern? Sounds like a bogus pattern to even use introverted "thinking". My objective actions CAN mimick my INTJ dads alot when I want it to, its one way that can be used to disable people, to connect to them, etc. When I mimmick my dad I dont classify it as "thinking" or even Fi when I mimmick the loud/annoyed nature, I classify it more as relations and initially thought letting those relations I made into the real world WAS Ne(basically extroverting my Ni out into the world), but you know what its not Ne, its not brainstorming new ideas, its stepping sideways and "telling people your step".

    So to judge someone based on objective behaviours could have you pinning an mimmicked action to a function itself. Or even pinning someone as Ne because objectively they can mimmick Ne by use of Ni. Thats what makes this whole typing system extremely complicated. It creates objective patterns that are not indicative of actual function unless you look beyond the objective pattern.

    I have a new INFJ boss that is insistant that we cant really know what the other persons thoughts are. Its fun to watch INFJ/INTJ interaction because the INFJ will call out the INTJ on him getting sidetracked by Ni when it somes to meetings. She also IMed me and asked me if I would like to join this wonderful meeting we were having...I had missed the reminder and the meeting started 3 minutes ago. I laughed at that as I thought it was funny instead of taking offense. The kind/bluntness was funny. Its like i am gonna put you in your place, but do it with style. She had mentioned earlier that she was very picky on meeting timeliness and mentioned it in the same kind of manner. Its like hidden social skills.

  7. #337
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Holy crap this thread grew fast!
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  8. #338
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    In answer to the last question - yes! New information or perspective puts things in a whole different light for me. I can't just will myself to "get happy" about something, but tempering it with other things does change what it is. This is one of the reasons that I need to get other people's reactions to something. Is there something I'm not seeing, information I don't have, is my perspective being coloured by something that I am not aware of, do others see my reaction as reasonable given the circumstances?
    So how much of an affect does that perspective have on your mood? Is it a naturally difficult process (I think Tallulah said something earlier about the value of the assistance of a therapist in doing this) or is it simply relative to the strength of the emotion you are trying to overcome?

    I admit I put a lot less stock in the outside information. I only take it on as far as it fits with personal instincts. For example, my perfectionistic streak (which is something that has particuarily baffled my Fe parents). In typical INFP fashion I am hyper-critical of things that I have created or worked on in some way. People around me will say how wonderful it is and I may even be rewarded for it but this fails to have an affect on me. As much as I value praise and other's approval, it means nothing if I don't believe it deserved. Actually, the fact that everyone is failing to see the flaws (or at least failing to acknowledge them) makes me more distrusting of their opinions. I suppose it looks nonsensical to others but the disappointment I feel is so persuasive, I can't help but trust in it.

    This is not to say that if someone offers a perspective contradictory to my own that I will always dismiss it. Its only when the emotion is overwhelming that I can't ignore it and will dismiss other perspectives.

    I like your comparison of emotions having a windsock like quality. For me, that is certainly true. This is one of the reasons that I don't find it that valuable to spend a lot of time examining the emotion itself. It can tell me what way the wind is blowing, if there is wind, or direct me to looking at whether the wind is doing any damage, but other than that, it doesn't in and of itself do anything much for me. I think this is indeed why Fe tends to pass what is felt as judgments of Fi emotion.
    Interesting. I don't really think of my emotions in that way but I'm not entirely sure how I would define their influence.

    How do you view the Fi process from the outside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I'm wondering if we're not as far off each other as we think. This, essentially, is what I mean when I say that a feeling needs to be "justified." It's not to say I don't have a right to feel it, or that I should feel guilty for feeling it. It's to get a second opinion as to whether it's my own fears that are clouding my judgment or not, and therefore, affecting others unnecessarily. That might be something you're able to do internally, but we can't. We need our mirrors.
    Of course, its much more admirable to admit you need guidance and seek advice than stubbornly cling to ignorance. But this makes me wonder if this is how Fe sees Fi - like we're foolish know-it-alls. The thing with Fi is that its not easy to justify to others being primarily driven by introspection and self-determined maxims. It sounds so vain and unreasonable. :confused: However I believe so strongly in its value and its ability to deal with the things life throws at me.
    Believe it or not, that's what we're doing when we're venting, a lot of the time. Figuring out if we have the "right" to be offended by someone, or if it's just our own insecurities, jealousies, biases coming out to play.
    Yes, I'm beginning to understand that now. Its interesting to think that when Fe seems judgemental and decisive, its actually asking a question - "she's a terrible person!(?)". But you can see why this is confusing to Fi, right?
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  9. #339
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I admit I put a lot less stock in the outside information. I only take it on as far as it fits with personal instincts. For example, my perfectionistic streak (which is something that has particuarily baffled my Fe parents). In typical INFP fashion I am hyper-critical of things that I have created or worked on in some way. People around me will say how wonderful it is and I may even be rewarded for it but this fails to have an affect on me. As much as I value praise and other's approval, it means nothing if I don't believe it deserved. Actually, the fact that everyone is failing to see the flaws (or at least failing to acknowledge them) makes me more distrusting of their opinions. I suppose it looks nonsensical to others but the disappointment I feel is so persuasive, I can't help but trust in it.

    This is not to say that if someone offers a perspective contradictory to my own that I will always dismiss it. Its only when the emotion is overwhelming that I can't ignore it and will dismiss other perspectives.
    Even I can understand this, though. When I know that the praise I am receiving is disproportionate to the achievement, no amount of accolades will be enough to convince me otherwise. And I'm pretty sure Fi is one of my least used functions. Or at least most poorly integrated.
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  10. #340
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Believe it or not, that's what we're doing when we're venting, a lot of the time. Figuring out if we have the "right" to be offended by someone, or if it's just our own insecurities, jealousies, biases coming out to play... I think the key is to validate the feeling and the frustration, and then gently suggest there are alternate ways of viewing the situation. I'd never just jump right in and make her feel like she's wrong. She's venting to me because I'm her friend, and it's a safe place. If I went straight to correcting her perception, I'd feel like a crappy friend. If I didn't correct it, I'd feel like a crappy friend.
    I found this fascinating, and am still having a hard time wrapping my head around the Fe/Ti perspective on this.

    On one level this is not so different from the way I approach my own venting. Oftentimes, I am sending out a feeler for feedback from my friends about [insert the object of my venting here]. But at the same time, I would never want to state my objections in such a manner that they would be thought of as self-evident statements of fact. I would be horrified at myself if I thought I were doing this. So it sounds like the endgame isn't that different, but the style of delivery is.
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