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  1. #321
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Interesting. Unless the person is about to do something incredibly stupid by acting upon those feelings, to me it doesn't occur to ask if they're justified. They are to them, period. And I will first see them through those emotions before I start tackling whether to act upon them and in what way.

    Edit: for that matter...does that mean that what O did in the op, which is try and offer suggestions for the the behavior of the ISFP to the frustrated ISTP work for you guys then? Does it provide that context for those feelings? Is that what you need? Or do you first need time and space to vent those emotions before you're open to that as well?
    Yup. You're feeling that way for a reason. The trick is to figure out why.

  2. #322
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Oh.. well, to be clear the 'is it justified' piece stays in my head... I just might ask questions to learn more about why they're feeling what they're feeling, and it's the question-asking itself that might not be what's desired.
    *mulls*

    Could you be triggered to show that 'justified' part if you felt it was imperative to make them understand that what they are feeling would be disastrous to act upon? As in...not taking the time to validate their feelings coz there's more at stake? for that matter, what happens if the answer to your 'is this justified'-question is no? Do you share that with them? How so?

    I can see Fi-users skipping the being nice and listening phase, if they feel core-beliefs are being affected. For that matter, O restrained herself with the ISTP, trying to stay openminded but her reaction here showed that her corebeliefs were definitely triggered.
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  3. #323
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Interesting. Unless the person is about to do something incredibly stupid by acting upon those feelings, to me it doesn't occur to ask if they're justified. They are to them, period. And I will first see them through those emotions before I start tackling whether to act upon them and in what way.
    What if they're being manipulative or simply trying to attract attention to themselves? I truly hate when people say "but they're my feelings" as though that excuses them from having to make sense (not that you do, but a lot...and I mean a lot...of people do.)
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  4. #324
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What if they're being manipulative or simply trying to attract attention to themselves? I truly hate when people say "but they're my feelings" as though that excuses them from having to make sense (not that you do, but a lot...and I mean a lot...of people do.)
    That behavior still stems from an unanswered need from within...its triggered by a powerful urge..a powerful emotion. As annoying as it may be, they may not even be aware of it and are in the process of trying to figure it out. Making sense at that point might not be a possibility for them..or it might be something they're not interested in. Either way, I find that staying calm and giving them the choice to either look in the mirror and self-reflect or opt to run off is what works. I won't indulge in their game, but if they're genuine about wanting to dig within themselves, then I'll gladly lend a hand

    Also realize that when it comes to an Fi-user ( I know you're not specifically talking aout those but, i wanted to add this), it's often very hard to translate that 'hunch', that feeling of 'something's off!' to logic. It takes work, gives us migraines and tires us out. All we know is that "something doesn't *feeeeel* right!" Now, you may be right that it's totally unrelated, whatever is setting off that feeling, but we need time to reflect and pinpoint the reason for that thing feeling off..and that can take a while, especially if it's driven by one of our fears and it won't happen when under heavy fire of your Ti, sorry...that just makes us dig in our heels.

    In a way, we're asking you to be our sound boards, but if you dismiss our hunch, it'll backfire into a defensive stance that doesn't get anywhere and just contributes to the migraine..on both ends.
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  5. #325
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Fi's requirements to make changes or feel better are so different that I don't think it's easy for a Fe user to see what they are. Anything we would normally do is seen as intrusive or unkind. Action is not what's needed. The way we would normally discuss, vent or draw feelings out of someone more like us is seen as a little invasive. I have a better idea of where the problem lies than I once did, but I still don't have much idea of how I could actually help a Fi user in trouble, and it is very frustrating to me that I can't.
    I can see how frustrating this must be. I actually couldn't tell you what I needed anyway other than the best way I know to comfort others (albeit rather awkwardly). I never know whether I should ask about something that's clearly troubling, but the chance that they might feel uncomfortable about it, makes me inclined to leave this up to them - they can talk when they want to and I will wait until they indicate I am needed (although this is not necessarily through literally asking for help. It can be much more subtle than that). I guess its patience, discretion and unspoken support. I've realised in the last few years just how much my ISFJ Mum does this for me and I'm surprised and touched because it is not her natural approach at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Conversely, when I see someone spending so much time wrangling with the emotion and how they got there and what it means, I often am looking at the bigger picture and how it will affect their lives and others, because to me, once you've figured out that you don't have to give a lot of credence to the feeling, why wallow in it? (I know that's not an Fi perspective, and is probably nails on a chalkboard to y'all.) This is why therapy can really help me when I get in a depressive Ti loop. It helps me if someone can give me that big picture perspective and show me where my feelings went off track. Y'all trust your feelings to guide you, but mine are often errant, and are sometimes born of unrealistic fears. So of course, we're going to think everyone thinks like we do, and "helpfully" give our perspective (and vice versa). I can think back to minor clashes I've had with people about stuff like this and recognize now it's because they were Fi dom/aux. I didn't realize it or know anything about Fi then. It definitely would have helped me understand them better.

    I can't think of a time when I thought an Fi user was using their feelings as a powerplay...can you think of an example when you or someone you know were accused of that? I do know sometimes I've thought people were hanging on to feelings when they could do something to change the situation causing the feelings, because they enjoyed the attention and sympathy they were getting from others. I don't think that's the same thing, though, and I can't say whether they were Fi or Fe users.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    This makes a sense, Tallulah, and I identify a lot with what you are saying here.

    I would agree that digging around in the emotion itself is not useful to me, but rather having the right context and information to temper it with neutralizes it for me. I don't really trust my emotions as being particularly reliable for anything other than indicators that I need to look at what they are pointing to. When I come to a suitable course of action, I feel as if I also have some way to ameliorate the circumstances rather than just feel badly about them.
    I don't really see it as wallowing although people often mistake it for this. But then I suppose you think it wallowing in the same way I see Fe as being afraid to face the darkness inside them and seek out real self-improvement and growth. I can detach myself from my 'negative' emotions to a degree, without any misery brought about by examining them - so there isn't necessarily any pain to wallow in. The understanding brings such comfort and direction to me because the unknown, and therefore, the untamed inside me is much more terrifying. It puzzles me that Fe don't seek this knowledge when it could help them, but then I suppose if you can so easily disregard your feelings, there is no need to overcome them.

    I don't entirely trust my feelings either, as OA said earlier we take them as as source of possibly useful information but at the same time we accept their fallibility. And if I trusted my emotional instincts 100% I would never leave the house! I see their irrationality and in analysing each one, it is my job to evaluate whether they are reasonable or not and to choose whether I act in accordance with them or counteract their pull. I have also found that even when your feelings are wrong there is something to be learned from them - it may be as simple as recognising your inner fears or prejudices but it allows you to take conscious action to avoid such problems in the future. I guess I also fear that if I don't examine my faults and mistakes, I shall be doomed to repeat them over and other - I want to keep improving and developing as a person and an unconscious existence keeps me stagnant.
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  6. #326
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Sorry I didn't respond earlier; I wasn't really sure how to answer your question; when I first read it I wasn't quite grasping it, and I still might not be, so I'll just say what I think I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I actually relate to this (especially the bolded) and do a similar thing. Yet there is are some significant variations. I don't have such an ability to alter my own mood - I can't 'throw negativity out the window' as you do. My emotions have stronger roots than this - I can suppress the expression of them or redirect them but not discard them altogether.
    I think it is that many of my emotions are tied to the angle that I'm looking at the situation; so if I switch angles, or perceptions - if I switch the things I'm really focusing on, or alter some of my 'premises' from which I'm basing everything, then my emotions might change. I mean, here's an example which is probably a poor one because things usually aren't this cut and dry - say I'm depressed about life because life seems to be about a, b, and c, and I don't like a, b, and c. Well, if I instead look at d, e, and f, or even revisit why I am perceiving a, b, and c as bad, then my emotions might change.

    It seems you wish to change your outer mood by altering your inner mood (and believe them deeply interrelated?), however I can live with a disconnect between the two.
    This is what I'm not sure of. But I think you are right, that I need allignment of my inner and outer selves. I see my external life as an extension of me, so unhappy internal me is not going to result in a good external life (outer mood? What I show to others? If I'm internally unhappy I'm not going to be able to extend towards others much at all, and will detach and possibly isolate myself)

    I also desire to not be irritable and unpleasant to others but do not deny myself the right to feel such emotions internally. I also think of emotions as 'just feelings' but in the sense that they are inherently neutral - neither positive or negative in of themselves - like a wild animal acting on instinct. The negativity only comes if I allow them to negatively influence my behaviour.
    Hmm... negative emotions affect me in a bad way physically. So negative emotions can be very unpleasant for me - I wouldn't call them neutral. So negativity is present even if I don't lash out externally or even convey most/any of it externally.

    And believe me, I have a scary Te drill sergent in my head keeping things in line; she doesn't stand for any silly emotion outbursts, and if any occur, will berate me for hours, if not days or weeks afterwards. In my head however, I embrace this 'negative' emotion and seek to understand, then control and direct it on an appropriate course. I can think about my feelings rationally with some degree of objective distance without necessarily letting them bully me (and they are very aggressive and strong) into getting wrapped up in them and then letting them loose externally - although this has taken much practice. For me the important thing is to refrain from behave negatively, rather than refrain from thinking negatively.
    Right, it's important for me too to not only refrain from behaving negatively (although my mute withdrawal might be considered behaving negatively?), and while it's impossible not to think negatively at times, I also just find it quite unpleasant so want to 'solve' for it as quickly as possible. Doesn't mean I ignore - I just really want to move past it. Depending on the nature of the situation, like I've said, sometimes it might take a really long time, other times I might bounce stuff off of others and get a new perspective which makes the emotion dissipate, other times it's something that I've learned I just need to ride out, & etc.
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  7. #327
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Also, I want to say that whenever I post in threads like this, I am never intending to speak on behalf of FeTi. At all. In fact I know based on reading what some of the other INFJ's write in various threads on here that there are some who really aren't going to relate to what I'm saying -- or at the very least, to the same degree. Just as I don't relate to some of the things other INFJ's on the board post. Same goes for NTP's, STP's, etc.
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  8. #328
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Sorry I didn't respond earlier; I wasn't really sure how to answer your question; when I first read it I wasn't quite grasping it, and I still might not be, so I'll just say what I think I do.
    You seem to be. Its fine to ask, though. I don't always know when I'm being incomprehensible

    I think it is that many of my emotions are tied to the angle that I'm looking at the situation; so if I switch angles, or perceptions - if I switch the things I'm really focusing on, or alter some of my 'premises' from which I'm basing everything, then my emotions might change. I mean, here's an example which is probably a poor one because things usually aren't this cut and dry - say I'm depressed about life because life seems to be about a, b, and c, and I don't like a, b, and c. Well, if I instead look at d, e, and f, or even revisit why I am perceiving a, b, and c as bad, then my emotions might change.
    This is fascinating. It amazes me that someone has that much control over their emotional direction; that your emotions are so relative and so within your power to change.

    And if true for Fe general, it also explains A LOT of problems I've had over this in the past because, in spite of frequent demands, I cannot remotely do this. I can alter rational thoughts through looking at things at different angles, but not emotions. Asking me to change undesirable feelings by considering other, more positive, perspectives is like saying world peace is achievable if I just think happy thoughts.

    This gives me much to think about - perhaps I'm not so emotionally retarded after all...

    This is what I'm not sure of. But I think you are right, that I need allignment of my inner and outer selves. I see my external life as an extension of me, so unhappy internal me is not going to result in a good external life (outer mood? What I show to others? If I'm internally unhappy I'm not going to be able to extend towards others much at all, and will detach and possibly isolate myself)
    Interesting. To clarify what I said: I experience a strong, conscious divide between what I express (ie. mostly shallow, temporary emotions) and what I feel (ie. deeper, more personally significant, longer term emotions) - so it is perfectly natural for me to separate negativity from what I feeling in the moment. This is not such a good example, but I can be rather depressed, yet smile and laugh with others like I'm really happy (and by this I mean I feel temporary joy, not pervading happiness - depression is still the more significant emotion to me). Therefore asking me how I feel is rather confusing to me, because, which sort of feeling?

    Slightly OT:I once saw a really interesting lecture on youtube from TED talks about this: it was about the difference between 'the experiencing self' (momentary feelings) and the 'remembering self' (deeper, more enduring feelings and memories) - so everyone has this, but perhaps some are more conscious of it than others? It was so strange watching it because its fascinating when science matches your instincts.

    Right, it's important for me too to not only refrain from behaving negatively (although my mute withdrawal might be considered behaving negatively?), and while it's impossible not to think negatively at times, I also just find it quite unpleasant so want to 'solve' for it as quickly as possible. Doesn't mean I ignore - I just really want to move past it. Depending on the nature of the situation, like I've said, sometimes it might take a really long time, other times I might bounce stuff off of others and get a new perspective which makes the emotion dissipate, other times it's something that I've learned I just need to ride out, & etc.
    I see. You seek to move forward too, but do so by not dwelling on things. (And I don't see mute withdrawal as negative behaviour - it makes sense to take the time to process things)

    So does this mean you put less stock in your emotions, that is, beyond their windsock-like quality? Do you think them somewhat meaningless because they are so relative to your perspective?
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  9. #329
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    In answer to the last question - yes! New information or perspective puts things in a whole different light for me. I can't just will myself to "get happy" about something, but tempering it with other things does change what it is. This is one of the reasons that I need to get other people's reactions to something. Is there something I'm not seeing, information I don't have, is my perspective being coloured by something that I am not aware of, do others see my reaction as reasonable given the circumstances?

    I like your comparison of emotions having a windsock like quality. For me, that is certainly true. This is one of the reasons that I don't find it that valuable to spend a lot of time examining the emotion itself. It can tell me what way the wind is blowing, if there is wind, or direct me to looking at whether the wind is doing any damage, but other than that, it doesn't in and of itself do anything much for me. I think this is indeed why Fe tends to pass what is felt as judgements of Fi emotion. We appreciate that being done for us, and even sometimes when we don't appreciate it, it does change our way of acting or looking at things. While I cannot control what emotions come upon me, information/context that I or others may find can influence how I react to it and how much harm negative emotions can do to me or others.

    With respect to Fe being action oriented, I think I see it like this. It does not help me to analyze what causes certain storm systems to develop right when there is a tornado headed directly for my house. What I need to know is if there is a way for me and my family to make it out alive and if there's any kind of damage control I can do before the tornado hits. All the tornado does is informs my course of action. It doesn't in and of itself mean anything to me if there is no kind of preventative action I can take to keep it from coming my way. If on the other hand, someone were to inform me that the tornado is coming near my community, but will not actually hit it, I would turn my efforts towards some other course of action that is more relevant than packing a few important items and getting away as quickly as possible.

    I see my emotions similarly. There are key pieces of information that greatly influence what my course of action is and that alter my perspective on a situation. This is one of the reasons why I find it very difficult to act in the moment. I end up looking at it from a bunch of different people's perspectives. Then even when I have a strong belief that there is a reason that I feel as I do, I must pinpoint why with concrete evidence, or be able to prove a clear pattern. Then I try everything I can to fix it. These perspective shifts can be very frustrating because sometimes by the time I realize how serious a problem is with someone, it has become a deeply established pattern that is difficult for me to extricate myself from. This is why sometimes I rely on on other people to validate my negative feelings before I trust them, because I am not sure myself if it is just the vantage point I'm looking from that makes the world look that way.

    While some emotions or reactions seem to be slightly delayed for me, I have a very hard time separating my inner feelings from how I express myself outwardly. Therefore, it is essential for me to vent off the toxic stuff or get some different perspective before doing or saying something that could be very damaging to those around me. It does seem to me that NFPs are more able to separate the inner feelings and outer expression a little differently than I can.

    I don't consider emotions completely meaningless, but I also do not especially trust them to not be fickle. For me personally, most of my feelings about someone are coloured by my last interaction with them (not the present one) because it takes time for me to process things. Therefore, I may discover after the present interaction that something is bothering me, or that I feel more positive about someone and I need time to figure out what gave me that feeling and then what the implications of that are for the next interaction.

    Negative emotions also affect me physically. I definitely see negative emotions as toxic, not because I'm afraid of looking at sad or angry things, but because they have a very deep impact on me and on how I relate to others. Even when I think consciously that I am handling things as well as possible, focussing on doing what I can to improve things and letting go of what I can't, it comes out in dreams or in physical symptoms like nausea, extreme fatigue, stomach pains and cold extremeties. It is something that I want to get past or resolve, because it makes it difficult for me to go on effectively.

  10. #330
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    BTW, I thought that the Fi crowd's objections to OMT's stuff and his defense were really interesting, as it was a mirror of the problems I experience with Fi and Te.

    He stated something that he couldn't know for sure in terms that sounded definite, but which he assumed all would verify (went without saying). Fi users were a little appalled as they would use qualifiers if there was a situation where you couldn't know those variables for sure. Similarly, I over assume that Te users are as sure of their hypothesis as they sound when they present it, not realizing that they assume their hearers would verify and point out flaws if something needs adjusting. I also find myself getting frustrated when Te overgeneralizes and doesn't use qualifiers, while Te users get annoyed at my wordiness and unsure tone.

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