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  1. #301
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Satine, I think I can identify with what you're saying about Fe/Ti. Yes, there are many times when for me, digging around in an emotion will not help at all, and if someone is trying to help me go deeper and root around in the emotion itself, rather than helping me reach a perspective that makes that emotion go away through reframing or action, I want to swat them away. I feel like it's just prolonging the issue, rather than getting through it. Conversely, when I see someone spending so much time wrangling with the emotion and how they got there and what it means, I often am looking at the bigger picture and how it will affect their lives and others, because to me, once you've figured out that you don't have to give a lot of credence to the feeling, why wallow in it? (I know that's not an Fi perspective, and is probably nails on a chalkboard to y'all.) This is why therapy can really help me when I get in a depressive Ti loop. It helps me if someone can give me that big picture perspective and show me where my feelings went off track. Y'all trust your feelings to guide you, but mine are often errant, and are sometimes born of unrealistic fears. So of course, we're going to think everyone thinks like we do, and "helpfully" give our perspective (and vice versa). I can think back to minor clashes I've had with people about stuff like this and recognize now it's because they were Fi dom/aux. I didn't realize it or know anything about Fi then. It definitely would have helped me understand them better.

    I can't think of a time when I thought an Fi user was using their feelings as a powerplay...can you think of an example when you or someone you know were accused of that? I do know sometimes I've thought people were hanging on to feelings when they could do something to change the situation causing the feelings, because they enjoyed the attention and sympathy they were getting from others. I don't think that's the same thing, though, and I can't say whether they were Fi or Fe users.
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  2. #302
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    This makes a sense, Tallulah, and I identify a lot with what you are saying here.

    I would agree that digging around in the emotion itself is not useful to me, but rather having the right context and information to temper it with neutralizes it for me. I don't really trust my emotions as being particularly reliable for anything other than indicators that I need to look at what they are pointing to. When I come to a suitable course of action, I feel as if I also have some way to ameliorate the circumstances rather than just feel badly about them.

  3. #303
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    This INFJ doesn't have a problem naming the emotions that I feel in response to something, but I do like to think on them, ruminate on them, because often I come to new insights during that process. Emotions aren't suppressed or tossed (were it that easy!) more like they are understood, new facets are discovered, and incorporated. I don't even think it qualifies as sublimation, but it may sound that way to those who have happen to have another preference. Maybe it is like the water cycle, evaporation and transpiration are a process over time. Water in so many forms, transforming but also balancing. Your way to "give it understanding" might be different, but this is mine.

    In my understanding and experience Fe isn't about being blunt, its more about shared feelings in a dynamic. Perhaps that is part of why when I received the suggestion about how to deal with injured feelings, it was for me a new method of reacting: to take the initiative and be up front and crystal clear about an emotional response, but in a productive way that honestly and directly moves that dynamic towards greater interpersonal understanding and possible conflict resolution. It's very likely true that functions don't correspond to behaviors in such a mechanical way. But I really thought that Orobas speaking her singular truth to this woman that cares for her and that she cares for could be a starting point to dissipate all the poisonous resentment, while leaving out the qualifying, apologizing statements, and also the assumptive negative value judgments. So is that Fe or Fi or neither or both?
    Last edited by Vasilisa; 02-18-2011 at 01:48 PM. Reason: clarity
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  4. #304
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    This makes a sense, Tallulah, and I identify a lot with what you are saying here.

    I would agree that digging around in the emotion itself is not useful to me, but rather having the right context and information to temper it with neutralizes it for me. I don't really trust my emotions as being particularly reliable for anything other than indicators that I need to look at what they are pointing to. When I come to a suitable course of action, I feel as if I also have some way to ameliorate the circumstances rather than just feel badly about them.
    This isn't too different from what I do as an INTJ. The difference is that I suspect it's unwise for an INTJ to do, because of the Fi perspective.

    For Fe, there is some objective course of action that is indicated by the emotion, and the course of action addresses the emotion. For Fi, on the other hand, introspection is required.

    When an INTJ suppresses Fi-emotion, we just turn everything into a logical process, and assume that "getting what we want" will solve the emotional problem. In fact, this works quite well ... almost too well.

    The problem is that sometimes, one does not know what one wants. Sometimes there are things that one needs (emotionally) that one does not even know exists. The names of such things are too abstract: love, affection, friendship. They don't really identify (in the INTJ perspective, at least) the essence of what is required. The point of the introspection is self-knowledge. Some feelings do not have their source in the external world, but deep within oneself. There is no ultimate answer to "why?" most of the time, but one needs to know that it is there.

    For instance, I know I need quiet time. One could facilely say this is because I'm an introvert, and that's why, but that's just a name. It doesn't indicate what I should do about it, nor does the ongoing implication that something is wrong if one isn't more social or more extroverted give me a proper direction. Rather, I need to know and understand myself well enough that I improve my life and become a better person by setting a boundary (for myself and others) that I get the quiet time to reflect as needed. That there is nothing wrong with me for needing quiet time, and that it is wrong for me to deny myself quiet time. And this is just a simple example of what I might find within myself, Fi-wise. A more complicated example might be "love." I needed an Fi-answer for "love", that it's an attitude inside me, as opposed to an Fe-answer in terms of what love does or how it works. For me, the Fe-answer evokes Te, and I turn it into a logical process that doesn't involve much emotion. It was the Fi-answer that helped me understand how to bring my heart into play.

    I'm not saying Fe doesn't handle such issues: Fe finds and Fe-answer that is expressed in terms that are right for that person. I believe the Fe and Fi answers map to each other, and are largely the same, but the means of achieving that understanding is different.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #305
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's irresponsible to float a possible (even if probable) hypothesis for someone else's behaviour without stating it as being an hypothesis only. Like any opinion, it should be clearly labelled and disclaimed as such. And any good hypothesis should be tested to see indeed if it is true.

    The danger is personal projection and lack of real world facts lead you to offer what looks like a conclusion rather than an hypothesis. And someone could act on your hypothesis believing it to be a conclusion.



    Yes, as outlined above, it does seem like judgement. And it doesn't seem most probable to me. But if it is to you, and you want to present it "Fi style" you need to throw a whole whack of disclaimers in there. That IS Fi style in a situation like this. Not a grandiose and verbose verbal wailing to the soul.



    @bold: you don't have a handle on the situation though. You're not there, you're not able to read the parameters on interaction, you don't see and feel the body language and you have no relationship with these people. So what you say is conjecture at best, and you have to disclaim it as such. Do you see what I mean here? As I said above, there are many, many more possible interpretations than what you have offered, and what you have offered contains a decided lack of nuance. I realize there's likely more in your mind than what you've alluded to here. And I respect that.

    And as to the rest of your post: It's a topic I'll speak with authority to, sure. If you want to read parent / child into it, that's your own projection.

    This might be hard for you to hear, but I have to tell you this stuff.
    Once again, it's not what you're saying - it's the way you're saying it; i.e. exactly what you're criticizing me for.

    I guess it didn't seem authoritative to me, because I figured you would naturally question my authority on the subject. Satine provided a good example of that - praising the effort, while providing a few pointers on my technique. What's more, she did this on my profile page, which is a far more appropriate forum for this sort of correction, since there's much less risk of public shaming.

    Just to be clear, "that makes sense" doesn't mean "this is what has to be true". It's more like "I'm OK with this as a hypothesis, because it's internally consistent." I did not do a good job of conveying that, and I apologize.

  6. #306
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    OMT, you have demonstrated you can utilize our language remarkably well when you talk to someone you know..aka O. But it's interesting to see that it's harder for you to do the same when you yourself are the subject and the Fi-user isn't that familiar to you. It's interesting to watch, coz this post so reveals you as a TiFe-user

    I find myself facing the same dilemma. TiFe-users that I've come to know and have taken the time to get to know are easier for me to understand as there's a basic trust that I don't need to get defensive with them and I somehow have some insight in to how they are likely to react, based on past experience...thus reducing the chances at misunderstandings significantly.

    I guess it's harder than it looks to shake off our natural tendencies, especially when the bond between the two parties has yet to be formed.

    it's also interesting that TiFe users are way more likely to be aware of how others may perceive somethign. I often find myself, when engaging someone in a thread, addressing them as if we're having a private convo, and the others are just bystanders..and that sometimes makes me blindsighted as to the potential harm I might be causing their image. Yet I also acknowledge that when I feel I get misrepresented by someone in a room full of people, it ruffles my feathers...*ponders*


    @ the others I still owe a response..I'm mulling, I swear I'll be back to comment
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  7. #307
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Everyone carries their battle wounds with them - that's not about functions. That's simply part of being human. Everything we experience is seen through a filter that's established when we're very young. If anything, perhaps it's these unmet needs that spur function differentiation.

    That's how you save the world, one person at a time.
    Time's post perhaps may bug you guys for a reason we have discussed in other threads with the NFJs... With a lack of surrounding Ti data, an Fe user will propose a solution based on what they have in front of them-Fe objective information and judgments. The NFJs then said-"if we are incorrect, please give us more data so we can refine the Fe judgment to something more specific-Ni/Ti refinement to the individual issue rather than relying upon the Fe solution". (NFJs please correct, if i captured this definition wrong or worded it wrong-I could be messing it up.)

    Time did something similar with Fe above...but when he did it I could feel all of the Ne modeling still at play so it wasnt at all offensive. When FJs put forth an Fe analysis it sounds VERY final-and when applied to an Fi user, very often is incorrect, thus offensive. Time's was analysis full of room for refinement/remodlling even as he presented it, was full of good intent and caring, AND-was an analysis of a TP, not an Fi user. Hell, I dont know what goes on in the mind of a TP, so I am totally cool keeping his idea open for consideration. Hmmm, I guess I can "see" all of the NeFe at play in his post so it rather than "THIS is the answer" it reads as "THIS may be an answer, have you considered it? Take some time to think upon it" but is filled with that really warm Fe that ENTPs give off when they care a great deal. If I have a baby ESTJ, then they have a baby ESFJ I suppose...but it can be really warm and caring.

    It was a really beautiful post.

  8. #308
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Fi, however, doesn't easy change perspective, especially if Si is also in the picture. It's much more visceral and elemental. The analogous Ti version would be like Einstein's reaction to quantum mechanics: that it couldn't possibly be true that it was random, that God does not throw dice. One has to change one's own attitude about what one can accept or not accept (on Fi or Ti terms), and that's always a major change.

    Ni, on the other hand, just "wiggles" and magically the matter is perceived in acceptable terms. The terms didn't change, the perspective did. To "update" Fi or Ti, the terms have to change, and it can be a painful process.
    Si "chains" my Fi to certain patterns of behavior. It is very concrete. I can understand logically or even holistically that I dont have to "feel" what I feel and that my Fi value judgment makes no sense-but I still "feel" the judgment. This is VERY true of value judgments about my own conduct.

    An example-
    FiSi rule-Do not hurt other people
    FiSi rule-Always forgive others and give them another chance

    FiSi FAIL-I could not forgive myself for hurting another..it was like I was missing a piece between the two rules. Everyone around me is always forgiven and always given a second chance, but self forgivness, no matter how illogical, was outside of my grasp. An INFP on another forum told me to try a quick trick. 1) Take the negative behavior in question that I committed. 2) picture another person committing it and forgive them 3) imagine myself from an external perspective committing the behavior 4) Forgive myself since I am another person.

    In my mind was this most incredible sense of cognitive dissonance...conflict...it feels like doing math with handfuls of pudding. Suddenly it was like a switch was thrown and within a few hours whole new rules were written and suddenly it was all okay-I could forgive myself.

    To do so required concrete examples (Si) and a defined path. I cant just repercieve like Ni-the Si is like physical chains that constrain and solidify the Fi rules.

    Now days I try and find those feelings of cognitive dissonance as they often highlight places/situations where my Fi rules dont make any sense and need to be remolded. My ENTP friend's comment was an example of something that allowed me to remold for instance. It was...mind bendingly novel.

  9. #309
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, me pointing out the obvious, that the functions do not control behaviour per se, is patently obvious, yet here we are, presented with similar patterns time and time again.

    I ask then, why? Can you explain the pattern outside functions? Because the pattern seems somewhat defined by them.

    Agreed; well said. There is an alignment, and it happens time and time again in these discussions.
    If the "pattern" seems defined by functions, it's only because that's the way they have arbitrarily been defined in these types of threads. There could be any number of explanations for them, including my favorite: thread groupthink, followed by dirty, dirty rationalizations.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #310
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I would agree that digging around in the emotion itself is not useful to me, but rather having the right context and information to temper it with neutralizes it for me. I don't really trust my emotions as being particularly reliable for anything other than indicators that I need to look at what they are pointing to. When I come to a suitable course of action, I feel as if I also have some way to ameliorate the circumstances rather than just feel badly about them.
    this is interesting. i think that my emotions are indicators too - or just things to just waft along in and enjoy, if they are happy emotions! and like you said earlier, you can "channel" their energy into outward expression. i find them to be like "atmospheres", in a way. i sort of picture them as big oceans within me, that can grow tempestuous or can be warm and sparkling and happy. the root is almost always in some kind of deep cognitive issue - eg i think my daddy doesn't love me, etc - but they can be influenced by less rational things like me being in pain or not getting enough sleep (both which tend to amplify my negative emotions).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah
    Conversely, when I see someone spending so much time wrangling with the emotion and how they got there and what it means, I often am looking at the bigger picture and how it will affect their lives and others, because to me, once you've figured out that you don't have to give a lot of credence to the feeling, why wallow in it?
    yeah. that makes sense. i don't know if it's because i'm not Fi dom, or e4, but i don't find much personal pleasure rooting around in emotion either, nor hanging out in negative emotion. the problem for me, is that when i am emotionally out of sorts, i need to sit with myself for a while to let the emotion "pass through", much like a storm. it's like it clouds everything for a while... it's not that i want to stay with it, but more that i have to. nothing else in my mind operates for that period of time. it is insanely hard for me to "shut down" emotion immediately. i wish i had the ability to toss it out, but it lingers. i can be rid of the cognition entirely and the emotion is still there. on the bright side, this is usually max 60 minutes, i get tired from raging / bored of wallowing after that.

    actually, as far as helping an ENFP with emotions, i don't know about others, but the best thing any person can do for me is just to be with me. seriously. just sit there. you don't even have to do anything, just hang out and be accepting of me. maybe even let me say stupid mean things until the storm passes and i'm able to think rationally again.

    i think fidelia what you said about Fe actions not being very helpful is true, at least for me... my problem is that i don't want to deal with those things right now. my FJ mom would try to do things like pick up a little around my room for me while i had an emotional breakdown or ten when i was a teen, and i felt like she wanted to be up in my business, kind of keeping an eye on me, but she kept wanting to go away from me and do things, so i felt like she didn't actually want to be around me, plus on top of all of that, she was moving stuff around in my room! it was just mental overload for me. i needed time out to deal with the tempest inside, but mom kept doing things. i think it might have to do a bit with extraverted Perception, actually. someone else doing stuff for you is just more information coming in from the outside for you deal with, which just makes everything so much more confusing. it feels like everything is moving too fast. she felt bad, she didn't understand why i was freaking out when she was trying to help. eventually we talked and i explained that the best thing she could do is just sit with me. and then she did. she still tries to help with actions sometimes, i just have to kind of gently remind her that's not helpful to me when i'm stressed out. not sure if this is true for IxFPs as well, but this is true for me.

    vice versa, of course, i have discovered that mom appreciates me doing things to help her when she's stressed more than sitting around and bugging her.

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