User Tag List

First 20282930313240 Last

Results 291 to 300 of 499

  1. #291
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,500

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I've long said that these conflicts comes up more online, in text format, than in person. Online, people read into the situation much more than elsewhere. It's what makes books often more fun than movies and TV: one's imagination fills in everything that isn't said. What we fill in, though, is based on our own preconceptions, and I believe this is what highlights some of the type-based differences we see: we are reading a combination of what the other person wrote and our own projections.

    Those projections contain the key information about how the cognitive functions operate. In person, there is usually a lot of other information about which both people agree which prevents the projections from appearing. Online, we have the opportunity to see the projections, others' internal versions of "how the world works", and align those (to some limited, imperfect degree) to the cognitive functions.
    I can pick up Fi much better in person. Dont always know why and understand, but I pick it up easier in person. There is to little projection online for me to be able to pick it up. This makes for a much better understanding because I ask more questions or dig more to get a better picture.

    edit: Also online causes a stubbornness since people dont actually get to see the other half of the person which further propogates peoples projection more then IRL.

  2. #292
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That's because ANY of the functions can result in the same behaviors. And I maintain that this thread has nothing to do with Fe or Fi (or Ti or Ni, or whatever other nonsense is being offered up now.)
    I don't think that's a useful perspective, especially given how the users of the functions have aligned themselves. I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure that this thread DOES have to do with the functions. All your perspective does is leave us in the dark... just tells us that there are two groups forming, and not giving us any clue about what they represent or why they're forming. It leaves us to just have a dispute without gaining any understanding.

    Why do you think it's better to refuse to look at it from a functional perspective, and dismiss functions as irrelevant in determining people's behaviors?

  3. #293
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,500

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I don't think that's a useful perspective, especially given how the users of the functions have aligned themselves. I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure that this thread DOES have to do with the functions. All your perspective does is leave us in the dark... just tells us that there are two groups forming, and not giving us any clue about what they represent or why they're forming. It leaves us to just have a dispute without gaining any understanding.

    Why do you think it's better to refuse to look at it from a functional perspective, and dismiss functions as irrelevant in determining people's behaviors?
    In this thread Just my opinion. Dont get a good vibe from the way the ISTP came across so from the beginning I pretty much dismissed the whole thing. To many possibilities, to many ways to read into it.

    Without direct interaction with this person I dont think that anything can really come out of this because the OP brought in functions/assumptions that can skew the rest of the thread that did not really relate to Fe or Fi. I dont think the groups really say anything about functions, but would better align with socionics relationships at this point in regard to working together.

  4. #294
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I don't think that's a useful perspective, especially given how the users of the functions have aligned themselves. I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure that this thread DOES have to do with the functions.
    I'm sure that your sureness is reassuring to you. It's not to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    All your perspective does is leave us in the dark... just tells us that there are two groups forming, and not giving us any clue about what they represent or why they're forming. It leaves us to just have a dispute without gaining any understanding.
    This is the God of the gaps argument for functions. Functions of the gaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Why do you think it's better to refuse to look at it from a functional perspective, and dismiss functions as irrelevant in determining people's behaviors?
    I don't think functions are necessarily irrelevant in determining people's behaviors; I think they're irrelevant in interpreting them. Especially the way it's done on this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    the OP brought in functions/assumptions that can skew the rest of the thread that did not really relate to Fe or Fi. I dont think the groups really say anything about functions
    Agreed.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #295
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Without direct interaction with this person I dont think that anything can really come out of this because the OP brought in functions/assumptions that can skew the rest of the thread that did not really relate to Fe or Fi. I dont think the groups really say anything about functions, but would better align with socionics relationships at this point in regard to working together.
    Well, I can agree that Socionics relationships might actually be a better model, but MBTI doesn't have anything close to that. That's why we end up relying on functions directly, rather than quadras or anything like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This is the God of the gaps argument for functions. Functions of the gaps.
    Well, then what good is this thread? If we don't have enough information to determine the role that functions played, or how the misunderstanding might have come about... then this thread is entirely pointless. You don't want Gods of the gaps... so, what do you propose we do with the gaps? Leave them alone, try to fill them with something else... or what? I think I'm beginning to understand your criticism of the use of functions in this manner, I'm just not sure what else we can do besides use functions in a thread like this.
    I don't think functions are necessarily irrelevant in determining people's behaviors; I think they're irrelevant in interpreting them. Especially the way it's done on this forum.
    Well, okay, then... but if functions cannot be used to interpret behavior, then what good are they to anyone? We're forced to leave them as things that cannot have an observable impact, and are thus essentially invisible. The entire point of functions is to try and explain human behavior... if they cannot do that, then they are worthless. Am I wrong?

    If functions determine behavior, but we cannot interpret behavior in terms of them... that's about as meaningful as saying that quantum fluctuations influence people's behavior. It may or may not be true that they determine behavior, but even if it were true, having something that cannot be measured or observed determine behavior doesn't give us any new information or perspective, and thus might as well not exist.

  6. #296
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, then what good is this thread? If we don't have enough information to determine the role that functions played, or how the misunderstanding might have come about... then this thread is entirely pointless. You don't want Gods of the gaps... so, what do you propose we do with the gaps? Leave them alone, try to fill them with something else... or what? I think I'm beginning to understand your criticism of the use of functions in this manner, I'm just not sure what else we can do besides use functions in a thread like this.
    Well, we can talk directly about where the "misunderstanding" is coming from. Which is basically what we've been doing this entire thread; the exception of course being the post-hoc "this is Fi/Fe/Ti/Ni" statements that were thrown in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, okay, then... but if functions cannot be used to interpret behavior, then what good are they to anyone? We're forced to leave them as things that cannot have an observable impact, and are thus essentially invisible. The entire point of functions is to try and explain human behavior... if they cannot do that, then they are worthless. Am I wrong?
    No, the point of functions is to explain the system of personality types in a consistent way. The point of the system of personality types is to explain dispositional differences between people. The result of dispositional differences between people is of course different patterns of behavior, but to look at a single behavior in isolation and then attempt to interpret it as "essentially" Fi or Fe (or whatever) is futile. Especially when that behavior is not your own, nor that of a psychiatric patient whose history you know, and you therefore have no access to the reasons or motivations that led to said behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    If functions determine behavior, but we cannot interpret behavior in terms of them... that's about as meaningful as saying that quantum fluctuations influence people's behavior. It may or may not be true that they determine behavior, but even if it were true, having something that cannot be measured or observed determine behavior doesn't give us any new information or perspective, and thus might as well not exist.
    Take that up with MBTI. It's not my fault that functions are not natural kinds.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #297
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I'm not sure where I fall when it comes to this.

    I very much analyze my feelings and why I'm feeling what I'm feeling. I have a desire to resolve and work my way out of prolonged negative feelings/mindsets, but I 'roll' with more positive mindsets and feelings and enjoy them for what they are. However, I also very much relate to the concept of being 'justified' when it comes to my more negative feelings /reactions if they involve other people especially. So yeah, absolutely, I don't have much issue if someone points out that I'm overreacting (as one example), or if someone says I'm missing something. I'm more like..oh, ok..I can see that.. and that helps because now I can just toss this negative emotion out the window because I don't like it anyway. And, I definitely like getting more feedback so I know whether or not what I'm thinking or feeling lines up with reality and the situation at hand. I don't want to be irritated, or show that I'm irritated, if in the end I have no reason to be irritated because I'm missing key information that would remove the existence of my irritation if I knew of it!!!

    But the example I just cited ties to emotions as they're directly related to situations. When it comes to what I'll call baseline emotions - my personal gauge and where I'm at on a given day, just generally speaking, in terms of outlooks or what have you - that's something I've had to figure out and it took several years of my mid-20's to come to terms with that and 'figure it out', if you will. So with more of those baseline emotions, sometimes it's best to just roll because there's nothing exactly to DO, or I know through knowing myself that they're part of a larger cycle/pattern (I'm not talking hormones, btw ) so again, nothing to DO per se but be aware and adjust accordingly - not let them factor too much in decisions or perceptions, depending. So I guess even if I roll in these cases, I do tend to view them to a degree as 'just feelings' - always knowing that they'll change at some point down the road and that many of them - especially contextual - aren't constant. So many times I don't place a huge amount of weight on them alone - or use them to define me - just because I know by their nature they are often short-lived. It's another reason I don't show many of these more short-lived ones - seems almost pointless because they might be irrelevant a day or two later or at any point when I learn more. It's why those longterm, deep-rooted feelings are the ones I really hone in on and try to solve for - assuming they're impacting me negatively.

    I also relate very much to what I've bolded, though. I'm very careful with what I say, and recognize that what/how I say something can and will be judged by people depending on how they go about perceiving and judging things as individuals.

    Can I borrow this for a sec?

    It's interesting what you said about being willing to toss that emotion out. Very interesting. I'm wondering...

    Do you disable the emotion at that point? Or just flat out ignore it? Suppress it?

    The reason I ask is..well, when Fi-users are confronted with a strong emotion (say, O's frustration in the OP), the best way to stop it is to give it understanding. What I mean is...the second you get more background information on what caused the other to react in a way that set of your frustration, the cause of the frustration is identified, and often, you'll find the Fi-user running out of steam and see that frustration turn into understanding. Once the source of the frustration is discovered, the emotion dissipates on its own. Tougher ones, as you said, that are deeper rooted, such as perhaps jealousy, take more work, as they're often routed in our own insecurities, in our own emotional baggage.

    But even then, I've found that jealousy is to be disabled by first becoming aware of the jealousy, then being curious as to why it's there, finding out what your own reasons are for being jealous of that person, and once I do...I smile at myself for being that silly and the emotion vanishes. Sometimes, when jealousy has been triggered really hard, or I'm feeling particularly insecure at that time, it takes longer. I realize intellectually where it comes from but the emotion is too strong to stop in its tracks and needs to ride out. Knowing that I just have to endure it keeps me from fighting it, from making it worse, from adding anger and frustration to the already strong emotion I'm experiencing.

    From what I've seen in Fe-users, they don't work this way. In fact, when I did research on how to deal with emotions online, I've found that the most common advice given by shrinks, is to figure out logically where the emotion would lead you. And if it's not favorable, that you are to toss it out. And I always got baffled at that part. It doesn't work for me. I need to know *why* I'm experiencing it, however irrrational, to be able to make it vanish. Fe-users, it seems, need to know the logical reasoning and the consequences of that emotion in order to...suppress it? Or really make it vanish? You tell me

    I've also found, and that's another reason for a clash between the two,I'd say, that Fe-users have no qualms calling it what it is. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like one, it's a duck. That means that if you're behaving irrationally and showing frustration, they will tell you to man up and stop behaving irrationally as well as pointing out that the frustration will do you no good. For me, that's denying me the right to figure something out as well as outright refusing to look deeper, and slapping a label on me, perhaps even permanent (that's my anxieties talking at that time). I am still in that state *becoz* I haven't figured out the cause yet. Coz I'm missing information (aka what makes the other person affect me that way). Meanwhile, Fe-users seem to get solace out of the fact that someone else is doing the logical legwork they're unable to do due to the emotion for them and point out where it's leading or what the consequences will be. They ID the perpetrator (aka [insert emotion]) and that's that. Where it comes from doesn't seem to matter, all that matters is that it's been apprehended before damage was done.

    It also seems that unwillingness or inability to let go after an FeTi user has helped you ID the perpetrator triggers suspicion. Why would you hang on to something we've id'd as potentially hazardous...do you have something to gain by it??? And in comes the suspicion of powerplay. If this happens with an Fi-user who's stuck within themselves and cannot find the cause (and who, incidently had no use for your logical explanation as you *still* didn't help him self-reflect as to the cause of the emotion), this only adds to the duress of that Fi-user, unfortunately (not to say they don't learn how powerplay works, but its usually not done during an existential crisis, and rarely a focus in general in our lives )

    Vice versa, I've found that when I explore with FeTi users the actual potential cause of that emotion, they shrug at me. It doesn't seem important to them, nor does it help them to realign. I'd love to hear how that works exactly, because that's always been puzzling to me. It doesn't help them disable the emotion, in fact, it just makes them more frustrated at the fact that it's *there*. I'm also wondering how FeTi users deal with deep rooted emotions that keep coming back in multiple situations. Does logical reasoning and its consequences act as a patch then? And what works for a permanent solution? Do you build in a day by day routine where you, when that situation surfaces, take the logical steps and almost recite a mantra in order to curb it? (coz I know that doesn't work for me, but I've seen it employed elsehwere )


    It would seem that Fi(Te) goes looking for the beginning to gain understanding, whereas Ti(Fe) cares about where it's leading...what damage it can cause.

    And that, I'd say, is one of the main problems in communicating with one another and hurting one another. So, I'd say the solution lies in doing both. Do *all* of the legwork. That way, you're covered. If you start at the beginning and see where it goes and treat it all as equally valid information...you'll find that everyone's satisfied

    Just a thought...*ponders*
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #298
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    4 so/sp
    Posts
    6,931

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Can I borrow this for a sec?

    It's interesting what you said about being willing to toss that emotion out. Very interesting. I'm wondering...

    Do you disable the emotion at that point? Or just flat out ignore it? Suppress it?
    Sure you can borrow it!! My problem will be attempting to respond to this while at work.

    I should maybe be clearer with the 'toss it out' phrase -- if I'm feeling something, and someone points out something or other that I hadn't thought of, or something that helps me reframe things in a different light, then the original emotion doesn't even exist anymore. It becomes irrelevant, I'd say. So it's not that it's still there and I'm pushing it into a corner (although - all of this is SOOOO situational - I have been known to ignore emotions temporarily if I need to get through a situation and the only way to get through it is to ignore it)...... most of the time through either more information coming in, or me changing my perspective or focusing on other elements of the situation, the emotion doesn't even pertain anymore.

    The reason I ask is..well, when Fi-users are confronted with a strong emotion (say, O's frustration in the OP), the best way to stop it is to give it understanding. What I mean is...the second you get more background information on what caused the other to react in a way that set of your frustration, the cause of the frustration is identified, and often, you'll find the Fi-user running out of steam and see that frustration turn into understanding. Once the source of the frustration is discovered, the emotion dissipates on its own. Tougher ones, as you said, that are deeper rooted, such as perhaps jealousy, take more work, as they're often routed in our own insecurities, in our own emotional baggage.
    Well, first of all..... I am very rarely confronted with a strong emotion. I don't think I'm an emotionally reactive person. I tend to be more detached in general, and perhaps because I don't have Fi / a firm value-system rooted in me like you do, I am therefore not easily upset about things. I guess I just don't have strong reactions in most situations. I can't think of the last time I got truly angry. I'm not saying this is necessarily a great thing, but it is what it is. So in general I have a harder time relating to those who are more sensitive to things.

    But even then, I've found that jealousy is to be disabled by first becoming aware of the jealousy, then being curious as to why it's there, finding out what your own reasons are for being jealous of that person, and once I do...I smile at myself for being that silly and the emotion vanishes. Sometimes, when jealousy has been triggered really hard, or I'm feeling particularly insecure at that time, it takes longer. I realize intellectually where it comes from but the emotion is too strong to stop in its tracks and needs to ride out. Knowing that I just have to endure it keeps me from fighting it, from making it worse, from adding anger and frustration to the already strong emotion I'm experiencing.
    I don't think I approach emotions that differently. I always want to get to the root of it and figure out why I'm feeling what I'm feeling.

    And, an important lesson I learned years ago was that with some of these emotions, to fight them/push them back makes them far, far, far worse than taking them for what they are - acknowledging them and acknowledging their presence in your life - and then either working constructively to try to get at why they're occurring, or else like I said before, just rolling with them if they're just something you know there's not a whole lot you can DO about. (i.e. those days where you just feel generally melancholy about life, or stuff like that).

    An example of emotions I learned not to try to fight/deny? Anxiety and low-level depression as a few examples -- they, tied with any of the more negative emotions stewing within me, were things that at one time I labeled as 'bad'/wrong, and things that 'shouldn't' happen if I were healthy and happy. Well, there's *some* truth to that. BUT, I was prolonging all of it and letting all of it fester and exacerbating it by labeling it negatively, because I then began the process of thinking something was wrong with me for having the feelings in the first place, and then, you know, that starts a whole downward spiral that feeds off of itself. So when I finally got to the point where I could just not only accept that I was having the feelings, but also accept that there is a natural place in life - in everyone's life - for having them from time to time - that I was able to move forward and really work at improving my life and figuring out what I wanted.

    From what I've seen in Fe-users, they don't work this way. In fact, when I did research on how to deal with emotions online, I've found that the most common advice given by shrinks, is to figure out logically where the emotion would lead you. And if it's not favorable, that you are to toss it out.

    And I always got baffled at that part. It doesn't work for me. I need to know *why* I'm experiencing it, however irrrational, to be able to make it vanish. Fe-users, it seems, need to know the logical reasoning and the consequences of that emotion in order to...suppress it? Or really make it vanish? You tell me

    I think when this is said, it doesn't apply to ALL situations/emotions. I think it applies very loosely to the concept of ... if you know in the end that sitting in an emotion, or being frustrated, isn't going to get you anywhere or help the situation -- i.e. nothing's going to *change* the situation by just feeling frustrated - you either need to do something about the situation to change the circumstances, or else reframe your own view to remove the feeling and try to look at things in a different light. There are situations, like I said above, where I HAVE either chosen to temporarily ignore my emotions or am not even aware of them due to the necessity to be in a situation where I basically can't have them -- see my most recent post in the 'INFJ delayed reaction' thread that SilkRoad started.

    So, acknowledge the emotion, but then if you're not going to either change the situation or change yourself, then ... what is being accomplished by sitting in it? (And when I say 'change yourself', I think it's the same sort of process as figuring out WHY you're experiencing it and then working to dissolve it or understand it so that it then loses its hold on you or morphs into something different)

    I've also found, and that's another reason for a clash between the two,I'd say, that Fe-users have no qualms calling it what it is. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like one, it's a duck. That means that if you're behaving irrationally and showing frustration, they will tell you to man up and stop behaving irrationally as well as pointing out that the frustration will do you no good. For me, that's denying me the right to figure something out as well as outright refusing to look deeper, and slapping a label on me, perhaps even permanent (that's my anxieties talking at that time). I am still in that state *becoz* I haven't figured out the cause yet. Coz I'm missing information (aka what makes the other person affect me that way). Meanwhile, Fe-users seem to get solace out of the fact that someone else is doing the logical legwork they're unable to do due to the emotion for them and point out where it's leading or what the consequences will be. They ID the perpetrator (aka [insert emotion]) and that's that. Where it comes from doesn't seem to matter, all that matters is that it's been apprehended before damage was done.
    I'm not really sure I can relate to this. I mean, when I was trying to get at my deep-rooted issues and trying to get a handle on my emotional side from about age 25-29, for that entire period I was rather internally aimless, and externally hadn't a clue what to do with my life, and had so many questions, and was really unhappy for much of it, and I was determined to dig deep and figure out what was going on, and it totally sucked. But nothing anyone else would have said would have been of assistance, really. I had to figure it out on my own.

    Things having less to do with overall existential issues? Well, with more 'straightforward' situations/relationship problems, I do definitely like to bounce things off of friends, if I'm confused or don't know whether my feelings are 'justified' and so I like getting that feedback; otherwise I like getting action-steps/answers/solutions from people w/ regards to simpler things -- definitely. I tend to love getting other peoples' reads on particular situations.

    It also seems that unwillingness or inability to let go after an FeTi user has helped you ID the perpetrator triggers suspicion. Why would you hang on to something we've id'd as potentially hazardous...do you have something to gain by it??? And in comes the suspicion of powerplay. If this happens with an Fi-user who's stuck within themselves and cannot find the cause (and who, incidently had no use for your logical explanation as you *still* didn't help him self-reflect as to the cause of the emotion), this only adds to the duress of that Fi-user, unfortunately (not to say they don't learn how powerplay works, but its usually not done during an existential crisis, and rarely a focus in general in our lives )
    I'm not really following this scenario and am unsure what you're talking about. Sorry.

    Vice versa, I've found that when I explore with FeTi users the actual potential cause of that emotion, they shrug at me. It doesn't seem important to them, nor does it help them to realign. I'd love to hear how that works exactly, because that's always been puzzling to me. It doesn't help them disable the emotion, in fact, it just makes them more frustrated at the fact that it's *there*.
    Well, I AM frustrated sometimes that negative emotions are there. I WANT out. I want to find a solution so as to stop feeling that way. Sometimes it takes a long time, depending on how tangled things are inside, other times it's quite simple.

    As to the 'shrug'? Well.. it may just be that what you've suggested is part of the problem but it only skims the surface. I know that years ago, there were multiple SINGLE answers as to why I was feeling what I was feeling, but a single answer/solution wouldn't have solved the root problem. The root problem involved a lot of rewiring within me (a lot of Ni-ish stuff), as well as - eventually - a jumble of external changes. It took me so long because I was trying to find the ultimate answer to solve for all of it all at once.

    I'm also wondering how FeTi users deal with deep rooted emotions that keep coming back in multiple situations. Does logical reasoning and its consequences act as a patch then? And what works for a permanent solution? Do you build in a day by day routine where you, when that situation surfaces, take the logical steps and almost recite a mantra in order to curb it? (coz I know that doesn't work for me, but I've seen it employed elsehwere )
    For me, with ones that keep coming back, I allow them to reside but also have that awareness that it isn't a permanent feeling. I have one in particular that I really would like to nab but at this point cannot, so I just let it sit there when it comes, and then let it go because I know it will. For this one, logic doesn't do much good, and the reason I can't nab it permanently is because there's no external solution. I'm basically a severely-upset-frazzled person for a span, internally, although externally will just go about things as usual although won't be terribly engaging or confident with others as a result.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  9. #299
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,099

    Default

    I'm not sure I identify, Satine, with the way you are describing Fe-Ti users' way of processing emotions. I'm not saying it's wrong, but for me anyway, I don't process things that way. I do agree with you though that both sides seem to find it difficult to help the other with problems because what disarms their emotions and renders them harmless seems to be very different.

    While I cannot speak for all, many INFJs I know realize they feel unsettled or uncomfortable about something, but often can't put their finger on why, or if they can, they need to figure out if it's a justified natural reaction, if it has been a longstanding pattern or is just a temporary abberation, or if there is something further going on that's influencing their perspective (tired, other stessors, previous feelings towards the individual etc). It seems that for many, internal processing is not enough. They need actual discussion with someone to sort out their own thoughts and come to a conclusions. I think in their attempt to be fair to others, they can invalidate some of their own negative emotions, but that doesn't mean those emotions are going to remain below the surface forever. It's not a matter of stuffing down their emotions, so much as that there is some lag time and discussion time needed to wade through everything there and figure out where the root of the matter is for them.

    For me, a lot of the unsettled feelings I have go away when I can at least pinpoint the cause of them (it's like hearing about an unnamed serious killer on the loose is somehow more frightening than hearing about a specific troubled person with a name and a photograph who has killed multiple people). That cuts down on the emotional white noise, so that I am able to focus in on what I do have control over and what course of action I want to take. I usually do consider at length why I am feeling something. Sometimes understanding it makes the feeling evaporate, sometimes it only increases its intensity. In general, settling on a course of action that seems fair is probably one of the main ways that helps settle those kinds of feelings. It channels the energy from them into a productive outcome and in the process of analyzing why they have arisen and what that means in practical terms, the strong negative ones tend to lose some of their steam.

    If I am in a situation with people where the same problems keep arising over and over, I will tend to exhaust ever possible solution I can think of from my end and also gather any other information that would give me more context or understanding. During that time, I may discuss it with someone trusted to get their reaction and see if I'm missing something important or if my feelings are even reasonable. Then, I will involve the other person (I don't want to call them to action if I haven't made any attempts of my own to improve things) to see if there's something I didn't consider or what possibilities there are for us to work on the problem together.

    If we have exhausted all of those possibilities and it still doesn't work and I think my emotions are causing more damage to the other person or me than the possible good that could come from persevering, I will disengage, or make an attempt to change the situation in some way so that it doesn't affect me as directly. This may even be temporary, especially if I feel that the other person is just throwing so much new stuff my way (which engenders all kinds of new emotions to keep processing) and I am too overwhelmed and need to catch up or gather inner resources to deal with it. I really don't like being at odds with anyone if I can help it. Sometimes I need to be less involved so that I can better assess if this person and I just have different ways of naturally interacting, or if it's something more serious (the person is not mentally balanced, they have too many problems for me to have an equally power balanced relationship with because they need help all the time, but they still want to make all the decisions, do we both have the time or type of relationship necessary to warrant this amount of emotional energy, the person is not as invested as I am in the relationship and is taking advantage of me etc).

    Over time, I'm realizing that there are some types of relationships worth investing that amount of effort in and there are others where it is better for both parties to amicably move on, realizing that they are not good for each other. Usually I would measure that by the magnitude of what we have embarked on together (eg if I'm married and have kids with someone, I'm going to do everything within my power to make it work vs if I have an option of interacting with someone casually and we don't really get each other.)

    For me, I guess that one of the big things that disarm certain emotions is the possibility of being able to make progress in the right direction. I need to know that discussion is possible or change could occur or that there is something that could be DONE. In that way, I think Fi and Fe are very different.

    When I see someone in distress, I look for what I can DO to improve their situation. I think Fi users don't find this helpful, while Fe users experience it as a supportive gesture. If the other person is doing the wrong thing in an attempt to help, I'd be more likely to try to redirect their efforts, but be deeply appreciative that they were willing to make the effort. In a sense then, as long as the other person wasn't using their kind actions for power leverage, I could appreciate their actions (maybe even especially) if I knew they didn't really find it easy or weren't naturally inclined that way, and I would try to show my gratitude through how I responded.

    Fi's requirements to make changes or feel better are so different that I don't think it's easy for a Fe user to see what they are. Anything we would normally do is seen as intrusive or unkind. Action is not what's needed. The way we would normally discuss, vent or draw feelings out of someone more like us is seen as a little invasive. I have a better idea of where the problem lies than I once did, but I still don't have much idea of how I could actually help a Fi user in trouble, and it is very frustrating to me that I can't.

  10. #300
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    What's the danger?
    It's irresponsible to float a possible (even if probable) hypothesis for someone else's behaviour without stating it as being an hypothesis only. Like any opinion, it should be clearly labelled and disclaimed as such. And any good hypothesis should be tested to see indeed if it is true.

    The danger is personal projection and lack of real world facts lead you to offer what looks like a conclusion rather than an hypothesis. And someone could act on your hypothesis believing it to be a conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I understand what she's saying. I think the disconnect is that I'm not making any sort of pat judgment on the matter. I'm simply giving my opinion as to what possibility seems most likely, based on what I know and what she's told me.
    Yes, as outlined above, it does seem like judgement. And it doesn't seem most probable to me. But if it is to you, and you want to present it "Fi style" you need to throw a whole whack of disclaimers in there. That IS Fi style in a situation like this. Not a grandiose and verbose verbal wailing to the soul.

    I don't think PB is wrong for reacting the way she did. What's frustrating to me, however, is that she is telling me that I don't have a handle on the situation, without demonstrating what factors lead her to believe this. Her tone is more akin to a parent scolding a child, than two adults having a conversation with one another.
    @bold: you don't have a handle on the situation though. You're not there, you're not able to read the parameters on interaction, you don't see and feel the body language and you have no relationship with these people. So what you say is conjecture at best, and you have to disclaim it as such. Do you see what I mean here? As I said above, there are many, many more possible interpretations than what you have offered, and what you have offered contains a decided lack of nuance. I realize there's likely more in your mind than what you've alluded to here. And I respect that.

    And as to the rest of your post: It's a topic I'll speak with authority to, sure. If you want to read parent / child into it, that's your own projection.

    This might be hard for you to hear, but I have to tell you this stuff.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think this is a key insight.

    If one regards feelings as "something to analyze and then act or don't act" on, then the ISTP's statements are easily seen as venting. It's "just feelings."

    If one regards feelings as something one "owns" (that they comprise who one is and one's attitude towards life in general), then the ISTP's statements are easily seen as horrifyingly appalling. It isn't "just feelings" any more, but rather a state of being. Everything the ISTP says is, in Fi terms, a reflection of her own character, not the character of the ISFP.
    @bold: exactly. If I were to speak in this manner, it would be way WAY more than venting. It would be a condemnation. And just saying it out loud would feel dirty, BAD. If I say something about other people just because I feel annoyed at them, I feel like I have violated my own personal ethics to treat people as I would wish to be treated. So when I need to vent I am very, very careful how and what I choose to say.

    One of the main reasons I'm careful in what I say and how I say it, why I don't like to speak ill of people, is precisely the latter point of view, a kind of a "anything I say can and will be held against me" perspective. What I say and how I say it reflects the kind of person that I am, especially in matters involving value judgments (Fi). Not that Fi doesn't also have/express negative feelings: it most certainly does. The reaction is different though. The Fi reaction is more like, "what is wrong with me?" (In simple terms - it's far more complex and PB can probably add nuances.)
    Yes, lovely. Bear in mind my comments are also reflective of an enneagram 9 here ... my Fi + 9'ness attunes to a process whereby one tries to work through emotions to understanding and thus dissipation. Maintain peace of mind. A close examination of the self will always yield a reason, given enough reflection, time and attention. I can look outside myself, and see contributing factors, but how I feel and react is about me, and me alone.

    So saying this another way, at this point in my life, I tend to look at emotions as something that arise within me, that they are not given to me, and no one else is to blame for how I feel (although, it's important to be mindful that lots of people try to dump off their emotions onto other people, and one needs to learn how to shield oneself from that).

    Thus, if I can understand what has evoked an emotional response, I can take the next step to releasing it or taking steps in the outer world to solving the problem, affecting the outer factors at play. Some of the hardest situations involve understanding the why of feeling something, but having no way to immediately solve the emotional issue in the outer world.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I'm more like..oh, ok..I can see that.. and that helps because now I can just toss this negative emotion out the window because I don't like it anyway.
    Ha, that sounds fun. No, I can't toss them out the window. Until they are solved, they are present. Someone else's rationalizations bear less weight than my own comprehensive analysis. I don't (or can't) rely on bouncing this off another person and them telling me I am overreacting (for example), because that doesn't actually make the emotion go away. Only my internal process and understanding leads there. When I talk about my feelings, that lets me get further faster sometimes.

    So many times I don't place a huge amount of weight on them alone - or use them to define me - just because I know by their nature they are often short-lived. It's another reason I don't show many of these more short-lived ones - seems almost pointless because they might be irrelevant a day or two later or at any point when I learn more.
    I agree that there are fleeting things that aren't worth examining. But often patterns start to develop that do bear analysis. Little irritations can be a signal to wider issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think I see where you're coming from. I would suspect you identify with the bolded because of Ni. Ni likes to really delve in and understand things and get them right the first time, often being very risk-averse. Note how you can just toss out the negative emotion.

    Fi cannot, but Ni can.
    Ya, again no, no such luck accepting the good but leaving the bad in the waste bin. They are hand in hand. Don't get me wrong though, one can try to ignore. There's always a price to pay for emotional suppression I have found though. Long term suppression of negative emotion can lead to all sorts of physical complaints, anxiety, depression, you name it. I believe your body will get your attention at some point if you're not listening to all the other signals.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That's because ANY of the functions can result in the same behaviors. And I maintain that this thread has nothing to do with Fe or Fi (or Ti or Ni, or whatever other nonsense is being offered up now.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Well, this is true too. I've often thought this in various threads -- just that one could 'justify' (for lack of a better word) any behavior as being the result of any combo of functions.
    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    This whole thing is one sided to begin with. Oro trying to understand without the other person present which means you can only guess and estimate at best, come up with something that could possibly be right and hold on to it realizing it may not be true.
    ^ ^ This is a pattern I have noted here and in other threads - the Fe / Ti or Ti / Fe vantage point is the one that stresses this too. So, me pointing out the obvious, that the functions do not control behaviour per se, is patently obvious, yet here we are, presented with similar patterns time and time again.

    I ask then, why? Can you explain the pattern outside functions? Because the pattern seems somewhat defined by them.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yes, I'm also beginning to see just how divided they are. The strange thing is, this divide is often disguised because we often come to similar conclusions through totally different means. The disagreements here seem to stem from the fact that we are detailing and analysing our thought processes, whereas IRL we tend to focus more on defining our conclusions and there is less division. And it is the thought process that seems to really emphasize our differences.
    Yes, that's well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I don't think that's a useful perspective, especially given how the users of the functions have aligned themselves. I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure that this thread DOES have to do with the functions. All your perspective does is leave us in the dark... just tells us that there are two groups forming, and not giving us any clue about what they represent or why they're forming. It leaves us to just have a dispute without gaining any understanding.

    Why do you think it's better to refuse to look at it from a functional perspective, and dismiss functions as irrelevant in determining people's behaviors?
    Agreed; well said. There is an alignment, and it happens time and time again in these discussions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I don't think functions are necessarily irrelevant in determining people's behaviors; I think they're irrelevant in interpreting them.
    Then this is just a chicken and egg scenario ... what came first?

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    ~whole post~
    Great post. Agreed with most of the Fi "understand" parts. Interested to hear the Fe side's response.

    EDIT: I see there's some posts above - shall review!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

Similar Threads

  1. [Fi] The One Where an Inferior Fi User Groundlessly Speculates about FPs...
    By Wind Up Rex in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 08-07-2013, 10:06 AM
  2. [Fe] When an Fe user verbally rants....
    By sculpting in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 10-28-2009, 11:01 AM
  3. [NF] theory about Fe & Fi
    By lorkan in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 80
    Last Post: 02-23-2009, 06:37 PM
  4. auxilary Fe/Fi detectives
    By entropie in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-06-2008, 09:37 PM
  5. Fe/Fi interactions with Te/Ti
    By proteanmix in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-20-2007, 10:20 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO