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  1. #281
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ni, on the other hand, just "wiggles" and magically the matter is perceived in acceptable terms. The terms didn't change, the perspective did. To "update" Fi or Ti, the terms have to change, and it can be a painful process.
    haha, this is so true. This is my life.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    I think I see where you're coming from. I would suspect you identify with the bolded because of Ni. Ni likes to really delve in and understand things and get them right the first time, often being very risk-averse. Note how you can just toss out the negative emotion.

    Fi cannot, but Ni can.

    It's one of the main things that Oro has helped me to understand w/r to Fi and Ni. Once I have a proper "Ni-perspective" on a situation, the bad feelings go away.

    Fi, however, doesn't easy change perspective, especially if Si is also in the picture. It's much more visceral and elemental. The analogous Ti version would be like Einstein's reaction to quantum mechanics: that it couldn't possibly be true that it was random, that God does not throw dice. One has to change one's own attitude about what one can accept or not accept (on Fi or Ti terms), and that's always a major change.
    With your statement, 'Fi cannot, but Ni can' --- I think that's an interesting thing to point out and thank you for the compare/contrast. I can see that.

    But that statement too can be confusing, then -- because it means sweeping statements like 'Fi-ers' do this and 'Fe-ers' do that isn't necessarily true, since the other functions coming into play are what really create the net result.

    I mean, I think that's a reason why my intj boyfriend and I really have no issues around Fe/Fi whatsoever - this wide difference is not even something I SEE, I guess. His Fi and my Fe end up being quite similar such that I don't even know that we process things all that differently. I mean, don't get me wrong, there are definite differences, but... I don't know that they're of the nature being described in this thread. My Ti and his Fi don't really duke it out, nor my Fe or his Fi. Or my Fe to his Te, really. :confused: Is this simply that INxJ's (well, all IxxJ's) internal judging function is tertiary, so in the end isn't that 'major' when it comes to issues such as being discussed in this thread? So the OP becomes a battle of the Internal Judging Functions because those are the primary internal for those two??

    I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. I guess I don't have anything that well thought-out atm.
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  2. #282
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    With your statement, 'Fi cannot, but Ni can' --- I think that's an interesting thing to point out and thank you for the compare/contrast. I can see that.

    But that statement too can be confusing, then -- because it means sweeping statements like 'Fi-ers' do this and 'Fe-ers' do that isn't necessarily true, since the other functions coming into play are what really create the net result.

    I mean, I think that's a reason why my intj boyfriend and I really have no issues around Fe/Fi whatsoever - this wide difference is not even something I SEE, I guess. His Fi and my Fe end up being quite similar such that I don't even know that we process things all that differently. I mean, don't get me wrong, there are definite differences, but... I don't know that they're of the nature being described in this thread. My Ti and his Fi don't really duke it out, nor my Fe or his Fi. Or my Fe to his Te, really. :confused: Is this simply that INxJ's (well, all IxxJ's) internal judging function is tertiary, so in the end isn't that 'major' when it comes to issues such as being discussed in this thread? So the OP becomes a battle of the Internal Judging Functions because those are the primary internal for those two??

    I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. I guess I don't have anything that well thought-out atm.
    Well, note that you're both Ni-doms. As long as you can communicate Ni-perspectives, you won't taste the Ti or Fi conflicts. Remember, I have both Ni and Fi fairly strongly, so I know I can just alter perspective so that my Fi side isn't offended. The hard lesson is that sometimes I need to NOT do that, and pay attention to the Fi side: it has information that Ni needs just as much as Ni needs the Te information.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #283
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    But that statement too can be confusing, then -- because it means sweeping statements like 'Fi-ers' do this and 'Fe-ers' do that isn't necessarily true, since the other functions coming into play are what really create the net result.

    I mean, I think that's a reason why my intj boyfriend and I really have no issues around Fe/Fi whatsoever - this wide difference is not even something I SEE, I guess. His Fi and my Fe end up being quite similar such that I don't even know that we process things all that differently. I mean, don't get me wrong, there are definite differences, but... I don't know that they're of the nature being described in this thread. My Ti and his Fi don't really duke it out, nor my Fe or his Fi. Or my Fe to his Te, really. :confused:
    That's because ANY of the functions can result in the same behaviors. And I maintain that this thread has nothing to do with Fe or Fi (or Ti or Ni, or whatever other nonsense is being offered up now.)
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #284
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Well, note that you're both Ni-doms. As long as you can communicate Ni-perspectives, you won't taste the Ti or Fi conflicts. Remember, I have both Ni and Fi fairly strongly, so I know I can just alter perspective so that my Fi side isn't offended. The hard lesson is that sometimes I need to NOT do that, and pay attention to the Fi side: it has information that Ni needs just as much as Ni needs the Te information.
    Well, right, a function in isolation isn't going to be terribly good - everything else supports it.

    I'm still a little confused about all of this though. Would you say that an individuals' primary internal function is how they tend to define themselves? So for INxJ's, it's Ni, for ENFP's, it's Fi, but for ENTP's, it's Ti, and so on? I'm just wondering why for you and I as Ni-doms, we pretty readily just switch perspective and aren't terribly caught up in Ti/Fi issues (or whatever), vs. ENFP's - even though they're N-doms just like us - seem to be much more wrapped up in Fi (their auxiliary), if you will. Whereas in contrast I'm not that wrapped up in my Fe, even though it's my auxiliary. Honestly it's a reason I recently changed to display myself as INfJ - simply because I dont' notice any huge head-butting /contrasts with myself irl w/ Te. Sure, maybe superficial distinctions and different concentration/focus, but not widely opposing. For me at least.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  5. #285
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That's because ANY of the functions can result in the same behaviors. And I maintain that this thread has nothing to do with Fe or Fi (or Ti or Ni, or whatever other nonsense is being offered up now.)
    Agreed.

  6. #286
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That's because ANY of the functions can result in the same behaviors. And I maintain that this thread has nothing to do with Fe or Fi (or Ti or Ni, or whatever other nonsense is being offered up now.)
    Well, this is true too. I've often thought this in various threads -- just that one could 'justify' (for lack of a better word) any behavior as being the result of any combo of functions. Sure, you might have to be creative in some instances, but it could be done if you bring in the Witch function or whatever. (lol!!! hahaha)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That's because ANY of the functions can result in the same behaviors. And I maintain that this thread has nothing to do with Fe or Fi (or Ti or Ni, or whatever other nonsense is being offered up now.)


    This whole thing is one sided to begin with. Oro trying to understand without the other person present which means you can only guess and estimate at best, come up with something that could possibly be right and hold on to it realizing it may not be true.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Well, right, a function in isolation isn't going to be terribly good - everything else supports it.

    I'm still a little confused about all of this though. Would you say that an individuals' primary internal function is how they tend to define themselves? So for INxJ's, it's Ni, for ENFP's, it's Fi, but for ENTP's, it's Ti, and so on? I'm just wondering why for you and I as Ni-doms, we pretty readily just switch perspective and aren't terribly caught up in Ti/Fi issues (or whatever), vs. ENFP's - even though they're N-doms just like us - seem to be much more wrapped up in Fi (their auxiliary), if you will. Whereas in contrast I'm not that wrapped up in my Fe, even though it's my auxiliary. Honestly it's a reason I recently changed to display myself as INfJ - simply because I dont' notice any huge head-butting /contrasts with myself irl w/ Te. Sure, maybe superficial distinctions and different concentration/focus, but not widely opposing. For me at least.
    Ne leads dom Ne's all over the place which could be to Fi or Te. Ni Dom is more solid in definition.

  9. #289
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Well, right, a function in isolation isn't going to be terribly good - everything else supports it.

    I'm still a little confused about all of this though. Would you say that an individuals' primary internal function is how they tend to define themselves? So for INxJ's, it's Ni, for ENFP's, it's Fi, but for ENTP's, it's Ti, and so on? I'm just wondering why for you and I as Ni-doms, we pretty readily just switch perspective and aren't terribly caught up in Ti/Fi issues (or whatever), vs. ENFP's - even though they're N-doms just like us - seem to be much more wrapped up in Fi (their auxiliary), if you will. Whereas in contrast I'm not that wrapped up in my Fe, even though it's my auxiliary. Honestly it's a reason I recently changed to display myself as INfJ - simply because I dont' notice any huge head-butting /contrasts with myself irl w/ Te. Sure, maybe superficial distinctions and different concentration/focus, but not widely opposing. For me at least.
    I've long said that these conflicts comes up more online, in text format, than in person. Online, people read into the situation much more than elsewhere. It's what makes books often more fun than movies and TV: one's imagination fills in everything that isn't said. What we fill in, though, is based on our own preconceptions, and I believe this is what highlights some of the type-based differences we see: we are reading a combination of what the other person wrote and our own projections.

    Those projections contain the key information about how the cognitive functions operate. In person, there is usually a lot of other information about which both people agree which prevents the projections from appearing. Online, we have the opportunity to see the projections, others' internal versions of "how the world works", and align those (to some limited, imperfect degree) to the cognitive functions.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #290
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    What is clear, though, is that there is a divide between the Ti/Fe users, and the Fi/Te users, that seems to be very difficult to bridge. Also, when I see two large groups of people holding differing perspectives, I feel very strongly inclined to try and understand both, even if I'm most inclined towards one or the other.
    Yes, I'm also beginning to see just how divided they are. The strange thing is, this divide is often disguised because we often come to similar conclusions through totally different means. The disagreements here seem to stem from the fact that we are detailing and analysing our thought processes, whereas IRL we tend to focus more on defining our conclusions and there is less division. And it is the thought process that seems to really emphasize our differences.

    It is interesting nonetheless. Its so strange to see someone focus on completely different aspects of the same problem, and from your own perspective seemingly 'miss the point'.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I'm not sure where I fall when it comes to this.

    I very much analyze my feelings and why I'm feeling what I'm feeling. I have a desire to resolve and work my way out of prolonged negative feelings/mindsets, but I 'roll' with more positive mindsets and feelings and enjoy them for what they are. However, I also very much relate to the concept of being 'justified' when it comes to my more negative feelings /reactions if they involve other people especially. So yeah, absolutely, I don't have much issue if someone points out that I'm overreacting (as one example), or if someone says I'm missing something. I'm more like..oh, ok..I can see that.. and that helps because now I can just toss this negative emotion out the window because I don't like it anyway. And, I definitely like getting more feedback so I know whether or not what I'm thinking or feeling lines up with reality and the situation at hand. I don't want to be irritated, or show that I'm irritated, if in the end I have no reason to be irritated because I'm missing key information that would remove the existence of my irritation if I knew of it!!!

    But the example I just cited ties to emotions as they're directly related to situations. When it comes to what I'll call baseline emotions - my personal gauge and where I'm at on a given day, just generally speaking, in terms of outlooks or what have you - that's something I've had to figure out and it took several years of my mid-20's to come to terms with that and 'figure it out', if you will. So with more of those baseline emotions, sometimes it's best to just roll because there's nothing exactly to DO, or I know through knowing myself that they're part of a larger cycle/pattern (I'm not talking hormones, btw ) so again, nothing to DO per se but be aware and adjust accordingly - not let them factor too much in decisions or perceptions, depending. So I guess even if I roll in these cases, I do tend to view them to a degree as 'just feelings' - always knowing that they'll change at some point down the road and that many of them - especially contextual - aren't constant. So many times I don't place a huge amount of weight on them alone - or use them to define me - just because I know by their nature they are often short-lived. It's another reason I don't show many of these more short-lived ones - seems almost pointless because they might be irrelevant a day or two later or at any point when I learn more. It's why those longterm, deep-rooted feelings are the ones I really hone in on and try to solve for - assuming they're impacting me negatively.
    I actually relate to this (especially the bolded) and do a similar thing. Yet there is are some significant variations. I don't have such an ability to alter my own mood - I can't 'throw negativity out the window' as you do. My emotions have stronger roots than this - I can suppress the expression of them or redirect them but not discard them altogether. It seems you wish to change your outer mood by altering your inner mood (and believe them deeply interrelated?), however I can live with a disconnect between the two. I also desire to not be irritable and unpleasant to others but do not deny myself the right to feel such emotions internally. I also think of emotions as 'just feelings' but in the sense that they are inherently neutral - neither positive or negative in of themselves - like a wild animal acting on instinct. The negativity only comes if I allow them to negatively influence my behaviour. And believe me, I have a scary Te drill sergent in my head keeping things in line; she doesn't stand for any silly emotion outbursts, and if any occur, will berate me for hours, if not days or weeks afterwards. In my head however, I embrace this 'negative' emotion and seek to understand, then control and direct it on an appropriate course. I can think about my feelings rationally with some degree of objective distance without necessarily letting them bully me (and they are very aggressive and strong) into getting wrapped up in them and then letting them loose externally - although this has taken much practice. For me the important thing is to refrain from behaving negatively, rather than refrain from thinking negatively.

    It is interesting that we both view our emotions with a degree of distance and distrust. Especially when this is not considered to be something Feelers are supposed to be able to do. Perhaps it is an INFX quality?
    Last edited by Southern Kross; 02-10-2011 at 10:48 PM.
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