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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    "i don't know who you're kidding thinking that you'll be able to do ____ after you graduate with grades like this; if you keep this up, you're never going to get into ____ school; i don't understand how you would let your grades go down the drain like this; you need to shape up or ship out; etc."
    When someone says whats above...I hear
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    he was just afraid that i would end up blocking off opportunities for myself
    Then its up to me to judge my actions based on what I wanted later in life. Most of what he said is logic and goes in one ear and out the other because its 100% completely understood and accepted no questions asked.

    What I picked when I read what was posted is someone forcing there internal drive and wants onto another person. I generally dont respond to that unless I decide to.

  2. #272
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Yes, PB is looking out for you OMT.

    I am just Te'ing you over the head atm. So I shall step back from the yellow line and sincerely send you one thousand for the attempt to speak Fi. It is deeply, deeply appreciated.

    JUST BE CAREFUL! It's like not wearing a condom or something ... it's making me jumpy!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #273
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    BTW, what type are you OMT? You and I have never had much interaction in the past. Haven't you changed your thoughts on that a couple of times? Refresh my memory! (on my wall since it's a derail I suppose ...)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #274
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    OMT: No, I don't catch your "drift" and if you don't know what extreme you are going to, I cannot explain it any better. Your hypothesis is way too broad, and way too dangerous. It really, really is. I apologize if you find me annoying or offensive, and I certainly doubted you could hear that post and not take it personally, but I had to share my thoughts on your read of one possible scenario out of oh, thousands of possibilities.

    Thousands.

    So yes, I think there is a problem with making assumptions on limited data. You cannot speak to an authority you do not possess. I don't find your overall sentiments a problem, there are lots of hurting and broken people in this world. I just find your presumption pretty shocking. And me saying that, whooo, I pretty much accept most people as I find them and hey, what you feel is what you feel. But you are going to an unsafe place ...

    And I still want to know, since you haven't answered me twice: If you are feeling the truth about a childhood problem to this degree of certainty ... what makes you this sure?
    What's the danger? That O looks at this from a different perspective? That even if this is wrong, it restrains us from demonizing a person simply because they act in a distasteful way? The only authority that I'm speaking from is "this is what it sounds like to me, tell me if I'm right; if not, explain to me why I'm wrong." That's it. If she decides that my judgment is inappropriate for this scenario, I won't take any offense, because that's her prerogative. That being said, if she decides to continue conversing with me about the subject, it's entirely inappropriate to criticize the means of judgment, as you are doing. It's fully appropriate to criticize the lack of data - in fact, being somewhat provocative with my statement, in part, was intended to search for more data.

    If you want to put it in functional terms, here you go - when you're Ne dominant, synthesis of ideas and creation of working models is an ongoing, and uncontrollable process. I'm going to make a judgment about how something works with limited data, and have little to no control over that. The only way for the model to improve is to engage other functions, by trying to make sense of the current data, depending on whether your priority is object predictability, or social interactions. Once these reserves are exhausted, the only way to keep improving is through searching for more data. At no point, though, does the model creation stop, until the problem is solved.

    What makes me so sure? It's what makes the most sense based both on personal experience, and what can be reasoned out from the many possibilities available. You have to remember - this is where Ti becomes defensive in the same way that Fi does if someone tries to invalidate their emotional state.

  5. #275
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    OMT: she's saying that the very thing that NTPs are often on our case about (aka potentially jumping to conclusions about other peoples feelings without fulfilling the 4 criteria to do so), is what you're dangerously close to. You're walking the edge, so to speak. And while I'm in awe at what you've just demonstrated, you're still fairly new at this and would do well to listen to the Fi-dom. Meanwhile...your progress is nothign short of amazing. Peacebaby is just looking out for you though
    I understand what she's saying. I think the disconnect is that I'm not making any sort of pat judgment on the matter. I'm simply giving my opinion as to what possibility seems most likely, based on what I know and what she's told me. However, I know that sometimes, I don't word things in a way that suggests that - in functional terms, that's the self-confidence brought upon by Ti.

    I don't think PB is wrong for reacting the way she did. What's frustrating to me, however, is that she is telling me that I don't have a handle on the situation, without demonstrating what factors lead her to believe this. Her tone is more akin to a parent scolding a child, than two adults having a conversation with one another.

  6. #276
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    When someone says whats above...I hear

    Then its up to me to judge my actions based on what I wanted later in life. Most of what he said is logic and goes in one ear and out the other because its 100% completely understood and accepted no questions asked.

    What I picked when I read what was posted is someone forcing there internal drive and wants onto another person. I generally dont respond to that unless I decide to.
    Yeah, I don't hear logic there. I hear "I'm going to berate you, because I'm mad about your grades, I'm afraid that I'm not doing a good enough job as a parent, I feel helpless because I don't know what to do to assist you in improving academic performance, etc." One of the things I've learned is that people don't launch into tirades solely for others' sake. They do it because they're bothered at a very personal level, feel defensive in some way, and attack to feel safe once again. Conversations that are truly about the other person's interest come from a place of respect, engaging them as is appropriate for their age and the relationship of the people involved.

    That conversation, done respectfully, would sound like this (coming from me, at the least): "Look - I know this was a tough semester, but you've told me many times that you want to do _____. If you don't improve your academic performance, you're putting that at risk. I'm sorry, but that's just the reality of it." "I'm worried about your grades this semester. I know your dream is to go to ____ school, but you know that admissions requires ____ GPA to get in. I don't want to see your dream vanish - we need to work together to get those grades up." "Is there something wrong? These grades are very unlike you. If something's the issue, let me know, and I'll work with you to fix it. However, you know that the reason I'm letting you stay here is because I want you to focus on your academic performance. If you've decided that your priorities are elsewhere, then you need to find another place to stay. I won't toss you out into the cold though - I'll help you find a place."

  7. #277
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Oh dear, if I acted every time I felt intensely well then I’d be an ENFP. Oh wait, I am an ENFP-. Part of growing up with Fi is learning that it is internally calibrated for me-thus I must act judiciously. I may feel strongly, but it is really important to put a lot of thought into those feelings-or I may act out about things that don’t matter, thus not be taken seriously when things do matter. Feeling does not equal immediate action-unless another person is in a great deal of immediate pain-which results in the greatest amount of feeling. Interestingly-in contract to what you mention-I do have the choice to suppress feelings with Te. I quell them. This could be unhealthy, but allows a more measured, reasoned response. If uncertain in a situation I withdraw, retreat.
    OMG, you're so marvelous! I want to be just like you. Except you're totally misunderstanding me. I have repeatedly said that I stop and think before I do and say. But I repeat that feelings for me immediate, like seeing is immediate when I open my eyes, and I do not have a choice about how I feel them. And for me, they are not something to just "own" in the way that PB suggested. For me, they are something to analyze and then act or don't act on (which in both cases is "doing something).

  8. #278
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    OMG, you're so marvelous! I want to be just like you. Except you're totally misunderstanding me. I have repeatedly said that I stop and think before I do and say. But I repeat that feelings for me immediate, like seeing is immediate when I open my eyes, and I do not have a choice about how I feel them. And for me, they are not something to just "own" in the way that PB suggested. For me, they are something to analyze and then act or don't act on (which in both cases is "doing something).
    I think this is a key insight.

    If one regards feelings as "something to analyze and then act or don't act" on, then the ISTP's statements are easily seen as venting. It's "just feelings."

    If one regards feelings as something one "owns" (that they comprise who one is and one's attitude towards life in general), then the ISTP's statements are easily seen as horrifyingly appalling. It isn't "just feelings" any more, but rather a state of being. Everything the ISTP says is, in Fi terms, a reflection of her own character, not the character of the ISFP.

    One of the main reasons I'm careful in what I say and how I say it, why I don't like to speak ill of people, is precisely the latter point of view, a kind of a "anything I say can and will be held against me" perspective. What I say and how I say it reflects the kind of person that I am, especially in matters involving value judgments (Fi). Not that Fi doesn't also have/express negative feelings: it most certainly does. The reaction is different though. The Fi reaction is more like, "what is wrong with me?" (In simple terms - it's far more complex and PB can probably add nuances.) Note how O is trying to contain her own reaction, and the purpose of her post is to achieve a level of understanding so that she doesn't react that way. She knows the ISTP very well, and thus knows that her own reaction is excessive, but she wasn't able to easily overcome the cognitive dissonance between her own immediate Fi reaction and her understanding of the ISTP.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #279
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think this is a key insight.

    If one regards feelings as "something to analyze and then act or don't act" on, then the ISTP's statements are easily seen as venting. It's "just feelings."

    If one regards feelings as something one "owns" (that they comprise who one is and one's attitude towards life in general), then the ISTP's statements are easily seen as horrifyingly appalling. It isn't "just feelings" any more, but rather a state of being. Everything the ISTP says is, in Fi terms, a reflection of her own character, not the character of the ISFP.

    One of the main reasons I'm careful in what I say and how I say it, why I don't like to speak ill of people, is precisely the latter point of view, a kind of a "anything I say can and will be held against me" perspective. What I say and how I say it reflects the kind of person that I am, especially in matters involving value judgments (Fi). Not that Fi doesn't also have/express negative feelings: it most certainly does. The reaction is different though. The Fi reaction is more like, "what is wrong with me?" (In simple terms - it's far more complex and PB can probably add nuances.) Note how O is trying to contain her own reaction, and the purpose of her post is to achieve a level of understanding so that she doesn't react that way. She knows the ISTP very well, and thus knows that her own reaction is excessive, but she wasn't able to easily overcome the cognitive dissonance between her own immediate Fi reaction and her understanding of the ISTP.
    I'm not sure where I fall when it comes to this.

    I very much analyze my feelings and why I'm feeling what I'm feeling. I have a desire to resolve and work my way out of prolonged negative feelings/mindsets, but I 'roll' with more positive mindsets and feelings and enjoy them for what they are. However, I also very much relate to the concept of being 'justified' when it comes to my more negative feelings /reactions if they involve other people especially. So yeah, absolutely, I don't have much issue if someone points out that I'm overreacting (as one example), or if someone says I'm missing something. I'm more like..oh, ok..I can see that.. and that helps because now I can just toss this negative emotion out the window because I don't like it anyway. And, I definitely like getting more feedback so I know whether or not what I'm thinking or feeling lines up with reality and the situation at hand. I don't want to be irritated, or show that I'm irritated, if in the end I have no reason to be irritated because I'm missing key information that would remove the existence of my irritation if I knew of it!!!

    But the example I just cited ties to emotions as they're directly related to situations. When it comes to what I'll call baseline emotions - my personal gauge and where I'm at on a given day, just generally speaking, in terms of outlooks or what have you - that's something I've had to figure out and it took several years of my mid-20's to come to terms with that and 'figure it out', if you will. So with more of those baseline emotions, sometimes it's best to just roll because there's nothing exactly to DO, or I know through knowing myself that they're part of a larger cycle/pattern (I'm not talking hormones, btw ) so again, nothing to DO per se but be aware and adjust accordingly - not let them factor too much in decisions or perceptions, depending. So I guess even if I roll in these cases, I do tend to view them to a degree as 'just feelings' - always knowing that they'll change at some point down the road and that many of them - especially contextual - aren't constant. So many times I don't place a huge amount of weight on them alone - or use them to define me - just because I know by their nature they are often short-lived. It's another reason I don't show many of these more short-lived ones - seems almost pointless because they might be irrelevant a day or two later or at any point when I learn more. It's why those longterm, deep-rooted feelings are the ones I really hone in on and try to solve for - assuming they're impacting me negatively.

    I also relate very much to what I've bolded, though. I'm very careful with what I say, and recognize that what/how I say something can and will be judged by people depending on how they go about perceiving and judging things as individuals.
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  10. #280
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I'm not sure where I fall when it comes to this.

    I very much analyze my feelings and why I'm feeling what I'm feeling. I have a desire to resolve and work my way out of prolonged negative feelings/mindsets, but I 'roll' with more positive mindsets and feelings and enjoy them for what they are. However, I also very much relate to the concept of being 'justified' when it comes to my more negative feelings /reactions if they involve other people especially. So yeah, absolutely, I don't have much issue if someone points out that I'm overreacting (as one example), or if someone says I'm missing something. I'm more like..oh, ok..I can see that.. and that helps because now I can just toss this negative emotion out the window because I don't like it anyway. And, I definitely like getting more feedback so I know whether or not what I'm thinking or feeling lines up with reality and the situation at hand. I don't want to be irritated, or show that I'm irritated, if in the end I have no reason to be irritated because I'm missing key information that would remove the existence of my irritation if I knew of it!!!

    But the example I just cited ties to emotions as they're directly related to situations. When it comes to what I'll call baseline emotions - my personal gauge and where I'm at on a given day, just generally speaking, in terms of outlooks or what have you - that's something I've had to figure out and it took several years of my mid-20's to come to terms with that and 'figure it out', if you will. So with more of those baseline emotions, sometimes it's best to just roll because there's nothing exactly to DO, or I know through knowing myself that they're part of a larger cycle/pattern (I'm not talking hormones, btw ) so again, nothing to DO per se but be aware and adjust accordingly - not let them factor too much in decisions or perceptions, depending. So I guess even if I roll in these cases, I do tend to view them to a degree as 'just feelings' - always knowing that they'll change at some point down the road and that many of them - especially contextual - aren't constant. So many times I don't place a huge amount of weight on them alone - or use them to define me - just because I know by their nature they are often short-lived. It's another reason I don't show many of these more short-lived ones - seems almost pointless because they might be irrelevant a day or two later or at any point when I learn more. It's why those longterm, deep-rooted feelings are the ones I really hone in on and try to solve for - assuming they're impacting me negatively.

    I also relate very much to what I've bolded, though. I'm very careful with what I say, and recognize that what/how I say something can and will be judged by people depending on how they go about perceiving and judging things as individuals.
    I think I see where you're coming from. I would suspect you identify with the bolded because of Ni. Ni likes to really delve in and understand things and get them right the first time, often being very risk-averse. Note how you can just toss out the negative emotion.

    Fi cannot, but Ni can.

    It's one of the main things that Oro has helped me to understand w/r to Fi and Ni. Once I have a proper "Ni-perspective" on a situation, the bad feelings go away.

    Fi, however, doesn't easy change perspective, especially if Si is also in the picture. It's much more visceral and elemental. The analogous Ti version would be like Einstein's reaction to quantum mechanics: that it couldn't possibly be true that it was random, that God does not throw dice. One has to change one's own attitude about what one can accept or not accept (on Fi or Ti terms), and that's always a major change.

    Ni, on the other hand, just "wiggles" and magically the matter is perceived in acceptable terms. The terms didn't change, the perspective did. To "update" Fi or Ti, the terms have to change, and it can be a painful process.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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