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  1. #261
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    good points uumlau

    i was thinking... Fi reads emotional cuing. we look in language for words that speak to emotion and value. this has been a constant source of tension between myself and my INTP dad, because we do not so easily speak one another's languages. he listens to my exact words, when my primary meaning is in the nuances of tone, and i listen to his emotionality, when his primary meaning is in specific word choice. actually this site has been invaluable to me in beginning to cross that bridge, because i understand what's going on between us.

    for instance, when he has expressed frustration because i got a bad grade on something (fortunately this is an old scenario, lol), he would tend to say things like "i don't know who you're kidding thinking that you'll be able to do ____ after you graduate with grades like this; if you keep this up, you're never going to get into ____ school; i don't understand how you would let your grades go down the drain like this; you need to shape up or ship out; etc." what i needed to do was block out the message i would hear of "you are a failure and will not amount to anything", which just made me hurt and angry, because his actual message was probably generally more like "if you do not get good grades, you will not be able to get what you want in the future", which is a decent point. he would be baffled by how upset i would get, because i interpreted his words as a devaluation - that he did not like me or really care about me, and that he expected my grades to be bad - even though now i know that he was just afraid that i would end up blocking off opportunities for myself that he and my mom had worked hard to create. but it's funny, because he could have said to me, "you know, you did really shitty on that test, i'm disappointed in you and next time i'm going to make sure you study more", or "you understand that if you want to get into ____ school, you're going to need to work harder" - neither of which are ooey gooey sweet, but they're not devaluing either, because they doesn't suggest that my poor performance was a reflection of who i am.

    now, i don't know how accurate to the Ti/Fi split that is, but i suspect that it is in some ways similar to the communication gap that has occurred here. one main group is reading fairly legitimate criticism based in fear - venting - and the other main group is reading a personal attack on the value of the family.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas
    But almost all of the Fi users see what was said-and they are “reading” it as condemnatory….As I mentioned earlier in the thread, likely it is not a case of “what” is being said but instead “how” it is being said-linguistically perhaps?
    yeah. i suspect that there are certain words she used that "cue" us as Fi users to read this as an attack on the ISFP. my suspicion is that there are phrases - "like dogs" probably being one of them - that cause us to interpret her rant as a devaluation of the person rather than simple venting.

  2. #262
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I wonder if there's a way for anyone to step back and see the elephant? Or move around and feel the elephant?
    We may all be blind, but we can hear. The solution is to listen to one another, and trust that their judgment of the situation is true and competent. We can then take those perspectives together to create a fuller picture.

  3. #263
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    yeah. i suspect that there are certain words she used that "cue" us as Fi users to read this as an attack on the ISFP. my suspicion is that there are phrases - "like dogs" probably being one of them - that cause us to interpret her rant as a devaluation of the person rather than simple venting.
    So.....do you think it is fair to interpret Ti venting in a Fi way? After all, the Ti user is interpreting the Fi user (isfp) in a Ti way, which seems to be the whole problem. Isn't interpreting a Ti user in a Fi way the same thing?

    Again, I don't see any problem with using the phrase "like dogs" and I would do it myself where it best describes a given situation, without "devaluing the person". Why is Fi given more weight than Ti in interpreting the actions of a Ti user?

    edit: Of course, O will have the most information of all (other than the original istp) since she was actually there to hear tone of voice, see body language, etc. I mostly mean the other Fi interpretations, which can only be based on the words, like all of us.
    -end of thread-

  4. #264
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ i don't mean to imply any rightness or wrongness, randomnity, just a communication gap.

    i'm explaining things from the Fi side because that is the side i understand better and naturally start at, not because i think it is more correct.

    and i don't think it's any more either person's fault, really. just a misunderstanding on both sides - the misunderstanding on the ISTP's part that using the language she did would convey her message appropriately to orobas, and the misunderstanding on orobas' part that the ISTP was intending to be fundamentally hurtful to the ISFP. ideally we could all understand one another for what we're trying to say, instead of how it appears to us...

    what i'm getting from this thread, and what i have gotten from my own experience in general, is that if Fi users can try to understand TP venting language in a Ti light, then we will understand that there is not usually an intent to devalue, even though we might hear one if we are not paying enough attention to the specific language - eg like dogs, instead of "they are dogs". big difference to a Ti user, i suspect - "like dogs" suggesting how they are behaving - though both phrasings could potentially come off as crude to a Fi user because of the value-weighting of dogs being lesser than humans. perhaps the ISTP is simply thinking of how the children are running around and making messes, but it comes off to me with the implication of them being, in a way, less than human.

    i think that's what orobas' OP was after, anyway, isn't it? understanding why the ISTP said something that sounded very cruel, even though her actions are kind. the confusion lies partially in the Fi interpretation of the language as mean.

  5. #265
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's not the disapproval of the situation that suggests a childhood origin, but the level of vitriol within the reaction.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    See, I didn't really feel the lady was being that vitriolic though. I mean for venting (which isn't meant to reflect truth with perfect accuracy), it just didn't seem to me that it was that horrific. I just read it as frustration.
    And that is the whole point. Personally, off the hop, I identify more with O's read on the situation, but I also know that the ISTP MIL is doing what she needs to do here, albeit in a way that is offensive to a certain percentage of the population! However, I don't see anything in this thread that would suggest to me the MIL had some specific childhood event as a trigger, a supposed "butterfly effect" to the present. That being said, very few of us emerge from childhood without some trauma, so it's not hard to use it here as some sort of justification. But to suggest it is extremely presumptuous indeed.

    IRL, although I would be concerned with the level of criticism being leveled at the ISFP and know the ISTP MIL's attitude will visibly color her interactions with this young mom, I would hear through the ISTP's words and attempt to identify the truer concerns, while helping the ISTP come to a better balance point on the situation. And come to a plan for the future too ... that's what emotions are for, to interpret, to read, to give signal that action is necessary. BUT, regardless of who's POV you lean towards or sympathize with, the MIL is still in the power position in this situation. No matter how hurt or frustrated or legitimate her concerns are. And the ISFP is in a life situation where she could benefit from guidance. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I'm trusting O's judgment as to how the conversation went. From words alone, I'm missing a good 60% of conversation, the part that came from body language. If O was reacting the way she was, I prefer not to dismiss her read on the situation as her being oversensitive..
    I appreciate the attempt, and the "benefit of the doubt" to O's OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I'm talking to her in a way that I think she can understand me best.
    I hear you talking in a way that makes me want to throw cheese doodles at you. I hear much emotional illogic in what you are saying. You have extrapolated well beyond the parameters of even speculative assumption. I would take my inner sense only so far, then would be researching to find all the facts. I get an instinctive interpretation of the emotional undertones, but to take it to the extreme you have assumes far, far too much. It's dangerous, in my opinion. It is exceedingly unwise to use this language unless you have an internal certainty in what you are saying coupled with some real world data to ensure your quality control checks are in place. Unless you are feeling the truth to this degree ... and if you are, I ask, what makes you this sure? It's not the read I get at all.

    Fi is a flashlight ... it can see a certain distance and illuminate certain truths, realities - and ones that are often shielded from view or shrouded in darkness. But then, one's feet have to start walking so they can visit the places one has only seen, and then Fi can see farther yet. Can you appreciate that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Now I get it... you're trying to use NFP language in a way that communicates the importance of your own worldview. That's why I was so confused. Looking at it that way, I think I can make sense of what you're saying. Especially given the fact that you've had long conversations with the OP in the past, so your assumptions might hold some weight.
    To me this is taking Fi language where wise Fi people tread lightly. That's all.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #266
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    That's what makes this pattern fascinating.

    Aside from the possibility that people are engaging in confirmation bias -- that is, reading the title of the thread about Fe/Fi, and choosing sides in that manner -- I don't see any alternative explanation than a cognitive one. Actually I don't think it's "Fe/Fi", but Ti/Fi. The Ti and Fe peeps are reading what the ISTP is saying, and getting it in a way the Fi folks don't, in TEXT format, without any personal cues than word choice. By and large, the Ti respondents do not get the OP's Fi reaction at all, while the Fe respondents are split, some seeing both sides and others only seeing the Ti side. There is an inherent sympathy for the ISTP that is expressed in both Ti and Fe responses, combined with an inherent skepticism or reserved judgment toward the Fi version of events.

    And the Fi responses are equal and opposite to the Ti responses: they get the OP's perspective, and are baffled or offended by the ISTP's behavior. I'm the only Te person in this thread, and I'm not your typical INTJ, so we don't have a set of data for the Te reaction, but I suspect it would mirror the Fe reaction: not so quick to judge the ISTP's behavior, but completely understanding the Fi perspective on the matter.

    The question for me is not which version is right, ISTP or OP, but why do we have a clear dividing line on who naturally identifies with each side. My usual approach is along the lines of finding a perspective that recognizes both ISTP and OP versions as valid and "true," granting the benefit of the doubt to both. Such a truth is usually not "somewhere between" as is often suggested, but rather very different from either personal version. This is the story of the blind men and the elephant all over again: no one sees the elephant, but the elephant is the core truth that is interpreted in so many ways.

    The cognitive functions are the blind men, each seeing a piece of the elephantine truth, but collapsing it into something unrecognizable as an elephant.

    I wonder if there's a way for anyone to step back and see the elephant? Or move around and feel the elephant?
    I essentially agree with your interpretation of the situation. While I may think the Fi users have a valid perspective, it isn't my perspective. It doesn't make sense to me at all, but I thought about how Fi works, and I can sort of understand why they came to that conclusion using Fi processing.

    I'm not certain that all Js would judge the same way, though. For instance, most (if not all) of the FJs here were NFJs. We don't know if ISFJs or ESFJs would tend to see both sides of the issue. They might, but there's a chance that in the case of the single INTJ and INFJs in this thread, it's just a matter of the Ni tendency to switch perspectives partially overriding our judgment functions. Trying to switch between multiple points of view to see the big picture, is essentially what Ni is designed to do, so that could be a huge factor in why the INJs responded that way. It could also be the FJ desire for harmony, though that doesn't explain why the INTJs (there was one I spoke to other than you who hasn't posted) are doing the same thing. I think that we need more SJ responses before we can be certain that leniency/mistrust for the Fi perspective is a consistent pattern among FJs, or that it's mirrored in TJs via leniency/mistrust for the Ti perspective.

    Although, I have to say, I can't really imagine the SJs being MORE accepting towards Ti or Fi that isn't part of their functional make-up.

    What is clear, though, is that there is a divide between the Ti/Fe users, and the Fi/Te users, that seems to be very difficult to bridge. Also, when I see two large groups of people holding differing perspectives, I feel very strongly inclined to try and understand both, even if I'm most inclined towards one or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    We may all be blind, but we can hear. The solution is to listen to one another, and trust that their judgment of the situation is true and competent. We can then take those perspectives together to create a fuller picture.


    I totally agree with you on this one.

  7. #267
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I hear you talking in a way that makes me want to throw cheese doodles at you. I hear much emotional illogic in what you are saying. You have extrapolated well beyond the parameters of even speculative assumption. I would take my inner sense only so far, then would be researching to find all the facts. I get an instinctive interpretation of the emotional undertones, but to take it to the extreme you have assumes far, far too much. It's dangerous, in my opinion. It is exceedingly unwise to use this language unless you have an internal certainty in what you are saying coupled with some real world data to ensure your quality control checks are in place. Unless you are feeling the truth to this degree ... and if you are, I ask, what makes you this sure? It's not the read I get at all.

    Fi is a flashlight ... it can see a certain distance and illuminate certain truths, realities - and ones that are often shielded from view or shrouded in darkness. But then, one's feet have to start walking so they can visit the places one has only seen, and then Fi can see farther yet. Can you appreciate that?
    What extremes am I going to? I am offering a hypothesis of what is going on, and what the implications of that hypothesis being true would be. If O told me "no, that doesn't sound anything like what she went through growing up," then I'd happily change my idea of what may be going on. What's dangerous, in my opinion, is to simply react to a situation such as this, without any curiosity into the bigger picture. O was asking that question. I gave my assessment, admittedly based on limited data, as a potential explanation.

    There's nothing wrong with making assessments based on limited data. We always have to, because no one can know everything about everything. If you get caught in the data, you'll never learn anything new.

    What makes me so sure? It's that this sort of reaction sounds really damn familiar, if you catch my drift.

  8. #268
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ^ i don't mean to imply any rightness or wrongness, randomnity, just a communication gap.

    i'm explaining things from the Fi side because that is the side i understand better and naturally start at, not because i think it is more correct.

    and i don't think it's any more either person's fault, really. just a misunderstanding on both sides - the misunderstanding on the ISTP's part that using the language she did would convey her message appropriately to orobas, and the misunderstanding on orobas' part that the ISTP was intending to be fundamentally hurtful to the ISFP. ideally we could all understand one another for what we're trying to say, instead of how it appears to us...

    what i'm getting from this thread, and what i have gotten from my own experience in general, is that if Fi users can try to understand TP venting language in a Ti light, then we will understand that there is not usually an intent to devalue, even though we might hear one if we are not paying enough attention to the specific language - eg like dogs, instead of "they are dogs". big difference to a Ti user, i suspect - "like dogs" suggesting how they are behaving - though both phrasings could potentially come off as crude to a Fi user because of the value-weighting of dogs being lesser than humans. perhaps the ISTP is simply thinking of how the children are running around and making messes, but it comes off to me with the implication of them being, in a way, less than human.

    i think that's what orobas' OP was after, anyway, isn't it? understanding why the ISTP said something that sounded very cruel, even though her actions are kind. the confusion lies partially in the Fi interpretation of the language as mean.
    I agree completely.
    -end of thread-

  9. #269
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    OMT: No, I don't catch your "drift" and if you don't know what extreme you are going to, I cannot explain it any better. Your hypothesis is way too broad, and way too dangerous. It really, really is. I apologize if you find me annoying or offensive, and I certainly doubted you could hear that post and not take it personally, but I had to share my thoughts on your read of one possible scenario out of oh, thousands of possibilities.

    Thousands.

    So yes, I think there is a problem with making assumptions on limited data. You cannot speak to an authority you do not possess. I don't find your overall sentiments a problem, there are lots of hurting and broken people in this world. I just find your presumption pretty shocking. And me saying that, whooo, I pretty much accept most people as I find them and hey, what you feel is what you feel. But you are going to an unsafe place ...

    And I still want to know, since you haven't answered me twice: If you are feeling the truth about a childhood problem to this degree of certainty ... what makes you this sure?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #270
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Peacebaby...take a step back and appreciate his attempt to communicate in our language..it's unique and I'd love to have that capacity for Ti.

    You're Fi-dom, to you this is natural, and I understand what you're trying to communicate to him, and you have a point...but first..applaud him on what he did right

    OMT: she's saying that the very thing that NTPs are often on our case about (aka potentially jumping to conclusions about other peoples feelings without fulfilling the 4 criteria to do so), is what you're dangerously close to. You're walking the edge, so to speak. And while I'm in awe at what you've just demonstrated, you're still fairly new at this and would do well to listen to the Fi-dom. Meanwhile...your progress is nothign short of amazing. Peacebaby is just looking out for you though
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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