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  1. #251
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Actually, for once I agree with PeaceBaby. The post seems like a bunch of armchair psychoanalysis to me.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  2. #252
    A window to the soul
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    That's the source of your strength - knowing that there's nothing the other person can do to make you stop loving them. There isn't a force on the planet that can overcome that. No matter what, you've got to be there for her, because it's likely that she's never been able to talk to anyone about this, thinks that what she went through was normal, and that grieving for her lost childhood would be somehow disloyal to her parents. In the face of all these awful, grotesque and corrosive thoughts, you've got to stay there, showing her that no matter what she says, you'll still love her no matter what.

    That's how you save the world, one person at a time.
    Wow, you're speaking my language, I like that! Right or wrong, that was absolutely beautiful and inspiring.

  3. #253
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ I don't mean to offend, but your posts here seem very presumptuous onemoretime, unless you have information no one else here is privy too. What are you vibing on? Is this what you sense here?

    This advice and this extrapolation just feels way off to me.

    I will think about this further ...
    It doesn't feel right to me, either. It humanizes the ISTP, for sure, but it's all conjecture. People vent for a billion reasons, including hating to see disorder, feeling powerless/helpless, feeling frustrated and grasping at straws to make feel better, feeling like crap but wanting to momentarily feel superior, whatever. Not everything can be traced to a childhood wound. If feeling like that's where the ISTP is coming from helps Orobas to sympathize with her (the ISTP has become the underdog in this scenario!), then it's useful, I guess.
    Something Witty

  4. #254
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    It doesn't feel right to me, either. It humanizes the ISTP, for sure, but it's all conjecture. People vent for a billion reasons, including hating to see disorder, feeling powerless/helpless, feeling frustrated and grasping at straws to make feel better, feeling like crap but wanting to momentarily feel superior, whatever. Not everything can be traced to a childhood wound. If feeling like that's where the ISTP is coming from helps Orobas to sympathize with her (the ISTP has become the underdog in this scenario!), then it's useful, I guess.
    It's not the disapproval of the situation that suggests a childhood origin, but the level of vitriol within the reaction.

  5. #255
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    See, I didn't really feel the lady was being that vitriolic though. I mean for venting (which isn't meant to reflect truth with perfect accuracy), it just didn't seem to me that it was that horrific. I just read it as frustration.

  6. #256
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Everyone carries their battle wounds with them - that's not about functions. That's simply part of being human. Everything we experience is seen through a filter that's established when we're very young. If anything, perhaps it's these unmet needs that spur function differentiation.
    Okay, I'm with you so far...
    So if your grandmother-in-law had constantly been loopy and unresponsive from drugs while your mother-in-law was growing up, it can't be surprising that seeing a (most likely clinically depressed, and thus unresponsive) mother neglecting her children would aggravate a very old, very deep wound. This is where Fi works at its best - but you've got to develop it. You felt her anger and disgust viscerally, and of course, the first impulse is to recoil at the white-hot rage of a 50+ year old lesion of the soul, left to fester all that time. Out of fear, you shift to self-preservation mode. However, this will leave you unsatisfied.
    Wait, what?

    What is leading you to this conclusion? You're an ENTP, the last time I checked. Why are you telling these people what they felt, and why?
    That's when you must have confidence in your internal reactions, and face the implications unafraid. Fi is saying "holy crap, this is intense!" Inferior Si is screaming at you to stay back, you don't want to get hurt! Of course, that's not when you're at your best. That's when you have enough confidence in the determinations you're making through Fi to let Ne get to work. It'll never satisfy you to simply let the woman's emotions be; you wouldn't have started this huge thread otherwise. However, and for what reason, I can't know, you're doubting the strength that Fi gives you, the confidence that you'll be able to handle the worst shit that this planet can throw at you, because in the end, whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.


    Actually, she DID end up talking to the woman afterwards, and she apologized for venting. I think it's resolved... umm, seriously.

    Also, I think you're expecting a whole lot from Fi that you really shouldn't... Fi can't just make you Superman in terms of confidence and courage. That's as silly as saying that Ni can make you psychic.
    You have to go into the breach. You have to ask her why she's so upset about all of this. You have to be prepared for her to shove back sharply. And you have to remain steadfast in your love for her. That's the source of your strength - knowing that there's nothing the other person can do to make you stop loving them. There isn't a force on the planet that can overcome that. No matter what, you've got to be there for her, because it's likely that she's never been able to talk to anyone about this, thinks that what she went through was normal, and that grieving for her lost childhood would be somehow disloyal to her parents. In the face of all these awful, grotesque and corrosive thoughts, you've got to stay there, showing her that no matter what she says, you'll still love her no matter what.

    That's how you save the world, one person at a time.


    O... kay. You're getting a little off the wall here... umm, calm down! You're not the one in the situation. *pours bucket of ice water on OMT*

    For one thing, you don't know how close these people are, or how close they want to be. For another, why do you assume she wants to save the world and try to take on such a huge task like you're asking? Maybe she just wants to let it go, accept that some people have different values and experiences, and move on?

    I mean, I can appreciate how much you value all this "tough love" stuff, and want to believe in the power of love and sticking by people, and all that stuff... but there's a place for pragmatism in these situations. Seriously. You're being WAY too idealistic, passionate, and making too many assumptions here.

  7. #257
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    See, I didn't really feel the lady was being that vitriolic though. I mean for venting (which isn't meant to reflect truth with perfect accuracy), it just didn't seem to me that it was that horrific. I just read it as frustration.
    I'm trusting O's judgment as to how the conversation went. From words alone, I'm missing a good 60% of conversation, the part that came from body language. If O was reacting the way she was, I prefer not to dismiss her read on the situation as her being oversensitive.

    The statement was also filled with universals in a way that doesn't suggest solely situational frustration.

  8. #258
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Okay, I'm with you so far...


    Wait, what?

    What is leading you to this conclusion? You're an ENTP, the last time I checked. Why are you telling these people what they felt, and why?
    "If" is the key word here. What does it matter what my supposed type is in this circumstance?



    Actually, she DID end up talking to the woman afterwards, and she apologized for venting. I think it's resolved... umm, seriously.

    Also, I think you're expecting a whole lot from Fi that you really shouldn't... Fi can't just make you Superman in terms of confidence and courage. That's as silly as saying that Ni can make you psychic.
    If everything were OK, then she wouldn't still be talking about it. I'm expecting nothing from a function - I'm expecting a lot from a person.



    O... kay. You're getting a little off the wall here... umm, calm down! You're not the one in the situation. *pours bucket of ice water on OMT*

    For one thing, you don't know how close these people are, or how close they want to be. For another, why do you assume she wants to save the world and try to take on such a huge task like you're asking? Maybe she just wants to let it go, accept that some people have different values and experiences, and move on?

    I mean, I can appreciate how much you value all this "tough love" stuff, and want to believe in the power of love and sticking by people, and all that stuff... but there's a place for pragmatism in these situations. Seriously. You're being WAY too idealistic, passionate, and making too many assumptions here.
    O and I have had long conversations in the past. I don't know her perfectly, but I have a decent read on the way she sees things.

    Finally, and this is critical - what I'm saying isn't nearly as important as how I'm saying it. I'm talking to her in a way that I think she can understand me best.

  9. #259
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    "If" is the key word here. What does it matter what my supposed type is in this circumstance?
    Well, it just seems to me that unless you're an xNFP like Orobas, or an ISTP like the woman she's talking about... you wouldn't know what they were feeling well enough to make assumptions like that.
    If everything were OK, then she wouldn't still be talking about it. I'm expecting nothing from a function - I'm expecting a lot from a person.

    Okay, fair enough. I just assumed we were still talking about it because other people still had questions. But since you know O, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

    O and I have had long conversations in the past. I don't know her perfectly, but I have a decent read on the way she sees things.

    Finally, and this is critical - what I'm saying isn't nearly as important as how I'm saying it. I'm talking to her in a way that I think she can understand me best.
    Aha!

    Now I get it... you're trying to use NFP language in a way that communicates the importance of your own worldview. That's why I was so confused. Looking at it that way, I think I can make sense of what you're saying. Especially given the fact that you've had long conversations with the OP in the past, so your assumptions might hold some weight.

  10. #260
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    See, I didn't really feel the lady was being that vitriolic though. I mean for venting (which isn't meant to reflect truth with perfect accuracy), it just didn't seem to me that it was that horrific. I just read it as frustration.
    That's what makes this pattern fascinating.

    Aside from the possibility that people are engaging in confirmation bias -- that is, reading the title of the thread about Fe/Fi, and choosing sides in that manner -- I don't see any alternative explanation than a cognitive one. Actually I don't think it's "Fe/Fi", but Ti/Fi. The Ti and Fe peeps are reading what the ISTP is saying, and getting it in a way the Fi folks don't, in TEXT format, without any personal cues than word choice. By and large, the Ti respondents do not get the OP's Fi reaction at all, while the Fe respondents are split, some seeing both sides and others only seeing the Ti side. There is an inherent sympathy for the ISTP that is expressed in both Ti and Fe responses, combined with an inherent skepticism or reserved judgment toward the Fi version of events.

    And the Fi responses are equal and opposite to the Ti responses: they get the OP's perspective, and are baffled or offended by the ISTP's behavior. I'm the only Te person in this thread, and I'm not your typical INTJ, so we don't have a set of data for the Te reaction, but I suspect it would mirror the Fe reaction: not so quick to judge the ISTP's behavior, but completely understanding the Fi perspective on the matter.

    The question for me is not which version is right, ISTP or OP, but why do we have a clear dividing line on who naturally identifies with each side. My usual approach is along the lines of finding a perspective that recognizes both ISTP and OP versions as valid and "true," granting the benefit of the doubt to both. Such a truth is usually not "somewhere between" as is often suggested, but rather very different from either personal version. This is the story of the blind men and the elephant all over again: no one sees the elephant, but the elephant is the core truth that is interpreted in so many ways.

    The cognitive functions are the blind men, each seeing a piece of the elephantine truth, but collapsing it into something unrecognizable as an elephant.

    I wonder if there's a way for anyone to step back and see the elephant? Or move around and feel the elephant?
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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