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  1. #241
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    . Oddly enough, the more I care about the relationship, the more likely it is I will talk to someone else about my feelings first. But anyway, no, it's never just about feeling. It's about doing something, Peacebaby, c'mon now, get with me, will ya? Feelings mean Do Something.
    I cannot choose to be angry or not to be angry. My body releases chemicals instantaneously whether I even like it or not. I have zero choice.
    Oh yes indeedy, if I can't work it out, there will be blowup.
    Oh dear, if I acted every time I felt intensely well then I’d be an ENFP. Oh wait, I am an ENFP-. Part of growing up with Fi is learning that it is internally calibrated for me-thus I must act judiciously. I may feel strongly, but it is really important to put a lot of thought into those feelings-or I may act out about things that don’t matter, thus not be taken seriously when things do matter. Feeling does not equal immediate action-unless another person is in a great deal of immediate pain-which results in the greatest amount of feeling. Interestingly-in contract to what you mention-I do have the choice to suppress feelings with Te. I quell them. This could be unhealthy, but allows a more measured, reasoned response. If uncertain in a situation I withdraw, retreat.

  2. #242
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Doesn't it strike you as "incongruous," though, that you would give the ISFP lady the benefit of the doubt and not the ISTP lady? I mean, it's sort of the same as mediating between two kids fighting; you take them aside one at a time, starting with little Billy, and you ask him why he's fighting with little Bob. Little Billy replies angrily, "because Bob is so stupid. He has a stupid face." Without finding out anything else about the situation, and without talking to the other kid, would you assume that little Billy was just being a bully to little Bob, simply because (1) he's your first and only source of information, and (2) his "evidence" for little Bob's stupidity is not convincing?
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    orangey, i think perhaps why some Fi users have seemed to side more with the ISFP is because it looks like the ISTP is more the one who has launched the "attack".

    coming from a neutral standpoint, to our knowledge, the ISFP has not done anything with the intention of negativity towards the ISTP, whereas the ISTP has made statements specifically assigning negativity towards the actions of the ISFP and her family.

    the way i see it, is a bit like a balance. right now the ISTP has the upper hand because she is attacking, so it makes sense to see if she has messed up as well, and to consider how valid her claims are, before looking at the interaction of both parties - especially because we are really going off the information the ISTP has provided us. we don't treat them both equally because the ISTP is the one who has made the first claims - perhaps it is somewhat a Te thing, but we need to check her claims first. are they reasonable? are they internally consistent? (in this case, they do not seem to be, which throws us off.)

    so that is not to say the ISFP has not made poor decisions or been negative herself, nor is it to say the ISTP is not a good person or has not done good things, but reviewing the ISTP's claims is simply a first step in a rebalancing to bring things back into harmony and equality where both parties are responsible for their contributions to the issue.
    ^ I agree with this assessment. I don't naturally sympathise with people who are (or I perceive to be) on the attack - I need to be persuaded that they have a good reason to be. I've seen too many people being hated on just for the fun of it and it has created an instinct in me to defend them. This probably does make me biased toward the ISFP's side (but this is nothing to do with type) - that and how nonsensical I found the ISTP. However, I did try to consider both sides and perhaps sound more biased than I really am.

    That said, you have a point Orangey. I was in a similar situation to your example myself: in primary school I once pushed a boy off a chair because he was bullying me so relentlessly (for weeks and months on end, might I add) and got a detention for it. But it is slightly different for adults when they have the maturity and language skills to explain themselves.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #243
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Historically-I Lived with MIL and DIL after their son left me with a 1 week old baby. I lived there for four years during my undergrad. I worked the whole time and never accepted money. Their kindness allowed me to finish my undergrad degree. I love them both very much. However MIL has always been a little Fe-ish and always sort of nagged me about little weird things raising my children. Understanding Fe has been a huge help in learning that her Fe nudges were signs of love.

    This situation was different-because it was aimed at a potential innocent, not me. The harsh language used during Ti/Fe venting translates VERY badly to be honest. Exceptionally so. I know and hear you guys saying it is not meant to be condemnatory-but that IS how it translates. It is VERY valuable to hear your internal perspective and viewpoint here.
    That's the key bit of information. She wasn't venting because she necessarily felt that way about the woman. She was venting, because knowing what her son did to you, and knowing the struggle you've faced as a result, she likely assumed that the other woman's behavior deeply offended you. She was trying to empathize with what she perceived to be your inevitable outrage at the situation. I mean, your child's father abandoned you, but you didn't just give up - you fought and struggled to provide your children with the best upbringing you could. She wasn't thinking that you would identify with the woman; she thought that you would identify with the plight of her children, given your role as mother. In her eyes, it doesn't matter what explanations she may have for her actions - once you've taken on the responsibility of having children, your own personal needs and desires are at a perpetual second in the hierarchy of priority.

  4. #244
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    As far as the actual scenario: how much of your MIL's earlier life are you familiar with, O? Her reaction may seem incredibly harsh, but do you know what experience she is speaking from? You don't get that sort of thing from a happy background.

    Second thing - perhaps there is an additional way to interpret the pain and outrage that you felt upon her words. Along with it being about her insensitivity, maybe you were mirroring her own anguish arising from a similar situation. The tricky thing is, you can't know for sure unless you ask, and when you ask, you have to be prepared for her to say no.

    You never engage a person on an instantaneous basis. You're always interacting with a timeline, some apparent, some deeply hidden, and some repressed by that person. This is where the act of loving comes in: you harbor that indignation with patience, temper that harshness with kindness, assuage that outrage with humility, subdue the desire for an outburst with grace, and comfort the hurt you feel with unselfishness. The transcendent love referred to earlier? That's what the Greeks called agape. That could very well be what you're looking for.
    This is really beautiful, omt. she was raised by an overmedicated enfp and an istp dad. She was a very rogue istp little girl.. I get what you are saying regarding history, but this resonates with me due to my Si. Would an ISTP carry the burden of history the same way an INTP might? I dunno, I really dont.

  5. #245
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Historically-I Lived with MIL and DIL after their son left me with a 1 week old baby. I lived there for four years during my undergrad. I worked the whole time and never accepted money. Their kindness allowed me to finish my undergrad degree. I love them both very much. However MIL has always been a little Fe-ish and always sort of nagged me about little weird things raising my children. Understanding Fe has been a huge help in learning that her Fe nudges were signs of love.

    This situation was different-because it was aimed at a potential innocent, not me. The harsh language used during Ti/Fe venting translates VERY badly to be honest. Exceptionally so. I know and hear you guys saying it is not meant to be condemnatory-but that IS how it translates. It is VERY valuable to hear your internal perspective and viewpoint here.
    That's the key bit of information. She wasn't venting because she necessarily felt that way about the woman. She was venting, because knowing what her son did to you, and knowing the struggle you've faced as a result, she likely assumed that the other woman's behavior deeply offended you. She was trying to empathize with what she perceived to be your inevitable outrage at the situation. I mean, your child's father abandoned you, but you didn't just give up - you fought and struggled to provide your children with the best upbringing you could. She wasn't thinking that you would identify with the woman; she thought that you would identify with the plight of her children, given your role as mother. In her eyes, it doesn't matter what explanations she may have for her actions - once you've taken on the responsibility of having children, your own personal needs and desires are at a perpetual second in the hierarchy of priority.

  6. #246
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    That's the key bit of information. She wasn't venting because she necessarily felt that way about the woman. She was venting, because knowing what her son did to you, and knowing the struggle you've faced as a result, she likely assumed that the other woman's behavior deeply offended you. She was trying to empathize with what she perceived to be your inevitable outrage at the situation. I mean, your child's father abandoned you, but you didn't just give up - you fought and struggled to provide your children with the best upbringing you could. She wasn't thinking that you would identify with the woman; she thought that you would identify with the plight of her children, given your role as mother. In her eyes, it doesn't matter what explanations she may have for her actions - once you've taken on the responsibility of having children, your own personal needs and desires are at a perpetual second in the hierarchy of priority.
    dude. perhaps this is where i agree with the final answer-my children take priority over my needs-ALWAYS. However I measure that priority in terms of my Te responses-graduating school, financial security, maintaining a job I may not like. She uses Fe as an objective measuring stick-not realizing I cant understand it and even find it offensive, but feels I would share her opinion on the final answer. I actually do. The ISFP is a total Te fail at the moment and her and her husband need to get their shit together.

    That was a really awesome insight time. (you have been renamed time as omt just sounds funny in my head.)

  7. #247
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    This is really beautiful, omt. she was raised by an overmedicated enfp and an istp dad. She was a very rogue istp little girl.. I get what you are saying regarding history, but this resonates with me due to my Si. Would an ISTP carry the burden of history the same way an INTP might? I dunno, I really dont.
    Everyone carries their battle wounds with them - that's not about functions. That's simply part of being human. Everything we experience is seen through a filter that's established when we're very young. If anything, perhaps it's these unmet needs that spur function differentiation.

    So if your grandmother-in-law had constantly been loopy and unresponsive from drugs while your mother-in-law was growing up, it can't be surprising that seeing a (most likely clinically depressed, and thus unresponsive) mother neglecting her children would aggravate a very old, very deep wound. This is where Fi works at its best - but you've got to develop it. You felt her anger and disgust viscerally, and of course, the first impulse is to recoil at the white-hot rage of a 50+ year old lesion of the soul, left to fester all that time. Out of fear, you shift to self-preservation mode. However, this will leave you unsatisfied.

    That's when you must have confidence in your internal reactions, and face the implications unafraid. Fi is saying "holy crap, this is intense!" Inferior Si is screaming at you to stay back, you don't want to get hurt! Of course, that's not when you're at your best. That's when you have enough confidence in the determinations you're making through Fi to let Ne get to work. It'll never satisfy you to simply let the woman's emotions be; you wouldn't have started this huge thread otherwise. However, and for what reason, I can't know, you're doubting the strength that Fi gives you, the confidence that you'll be able to handle the worst shit that this planet can throw at you, because in the end, whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

    You have to go into the breach. You have to ask her why she's so upset about all of this. You have to be prepared for her to shove back sharply. And you have to remain steadfast in your love for her. That's the source of your strength - knowing that there's nothing the other person can do to make you stop loving them. There isn't a force on the planet that can overcome that. No matter what, you've got to be there for her, because it's likely that she's never been able to talk to anyone about this, thinks that what she went through was normal, and that grieving for her lost childhood would be somehow disloyal to her parents. In the face of all these awful, grotesque and corrosive thoughts, you've got to stay there, showing her that no matter what she says, you'll still love her no matter what.

    That's how you save the world, one person at a time.

  8. #248
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ I don't mean to offend, but your posts here seem very presumptuous onemoretime, unless you have information no one else here is privy too. What are you vibing on? Is this what you sense here?

    This advice and this extrapolation just feels way off to me.

    I will think about this further ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #249
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'd be interested in knowing why you react so strongly to that, PB (I mean that as an honest question). I don't know if either of you are right, but his guess didn't seem completely implausible to me. Where does your discomfort eminate from?

  10. #250
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ The posts feel wrong, but I have to think on it a bit to explain, if I can ... 'til the morning! Again, no offense intended to OMT.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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