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  1. #221
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Complainer's Behavior Lacked Congruity with Her Feelings:
    Fi Likes Authenticity and Truthiness

    If my Fi/Te driven opinion is at all representative of other Fi/Te users, I found it DEEPLY offensive that the complainer would act one way around the subject of her complaints and another way in her absence. This incongruity in her behavior felt disingenuous at best and backstabbing and unnecessarily cruel at worst.

    Not All Fi Values are Created Equal:
    What Is the Most Important Value in this Situation?

    What seemed of primary importance to me was that the complainer was morally in the wrong to publicly talk about the object of her complaints to Orobas. Only after this point is agreed upon, then would I begin to sort through the veracity of the complainer's statements.
    See the 'backstabbing' didn't really bother me, but then I define the word differently to most people. When you find someone annoying, it is natural to complain about them, and venting about someone when they're not around to hear it is infinitely better than just abusing them to their face. I don't think it disingenuous to be civil to someone you don't like - in fact, I think it virtuous to control your emotional response to them and treat them with respect, regardless. I see backstabbing as having more of an intention to publicly discredit someone while feigning warmth and friendship towards them - and because I don't wish to speculate on whether this is the case, I will give the ISTP the benefit of the doubt and assume it was just a rant.

    I do believe you are right about the importance of 'authenticity' and that we Fi users are focusing on quite different issues but we are simply applying the values differently to this situation

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think to Fe-Ti, the veracity of the claims (or lack thereof, depending) is very relevant to the conversation that took place. To determine whether the ISTP was being overly harsh or not, it seems important to know whether the claims were valid.

    I think in Fi-Te terms that perhaps is a separate issue. For me, it is one and the same issue, and that is maybe why there seems to be a disconnect.
    Yes, I do see that as a secondary issue; not because I consider it unimportant whether there is neglect or not but because I draw a conclusion on this based on the claims made by the accusor. I find what the ISTP says to be quite telling and that it negates the whole neglect issue.

    It is possible that she really is seeing neglect and is failing to properly articulate it but from the limited information that she gave there is little to no evidence of it. Additionally, I believe that the way in which she justifies her argument (ie. clouded with emotions and logical fallacies), actually discredits any real evidence that she provided. As she is the primary source of information on this issue (and being now discredited in my eyes), this leads me to conclude there is no reliable evidence of neglect, and until there is, I will presume the ISFP to be innocent of it. Following this conclusion, I then evaluate the fact that the ISTP has made (as OA said) slanderous remarks she can't back up. This is where I begin to think her spiteful and judgemental, because she has callously made an unjustifiable accusation about the ISFP over so serious an issue as child neglect. Note: irrelevant to this opinion of her behaviour, is the fact that she vented about the ISFP, and whether or not she is compassionate in her attempts to help her. I am only focused on what the ISTP herself said about the situation, everything else is unreasonable speculation.

    Hopefully this makes sense...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  2. #222
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ...
    Thanks Tilty ... what is it about being right? I have said before that Te and Fe always need to be or think they are right, so maybe this ties into that. It's never just about feeling though, eh? It's about determining whether those feelings are justified.

    Owning feelings means that you accept that you are the originator of them and don't attribute them to being caused by anything outside yourself. It's not like other people dump a whole bag of annoyance on you if they show up late for example, you choose to feel angry. Since you choose to be angry, you can also choose not to be. Now, I am grossly simplifying the idea of choosing how to feel and I am not saying you let other people walk all over you, nor am I saying you don't pay attention to those emotional message prompts. But if you don't vent off those feelings, what will happen? Will you "blow up" on the other person or yourself?

    ... I find a certain delightful irony that we (Fi and Fe) both need to vent from time to time, but the causes of that and the contents of the venting are oh so different.
    I think Fe seems to believe that there is some objective truth in how to see a situation like this, whereas I think Fi is more likely to see everyone as having their own set of truth which is equally valid and real to them. I don't like to be unreasonable, and if there are reasons I haven't considered before that would explain certain behaviours in a more positive light, I am grateful to the person who offers that perspective.

    As far as feelings go, I think I would make a distinction. I would agree with you that no one can impose certain responses on you and that you have some control in how you choose to handle your emotions. However, I would argue that my emotions come and go quite unbidden. I don't trust them as anything other than signposts that there is something there to look at. Therefore, when I vent, I am trying to rid myself of emotions that are not useful, that cause me to see people in an unfair light or that could result in damaging behaviours. Many Fi users see this as dumping a judgement on someone, or being two-faced (saying stuff behind a person's back and then acting sweet to their face). I feel that by getting rid of the toxic stuff in a safe place where I can sort through it and figure out why those emotions have sprung up within me, I can better deal with the source of them and also shrink them down to a manageable size where I can do something productive with them. It allows me to behave compassionately to someone rather than hurtfully. The trick is that it is important to do that venting with someone who knows my character well enough that they understand I am not trying to be hurtful and that I am in-process (this isn't my final judgement). They also need to be able to help me work through it all by asking questions, rather than springing to my defense or to become the devil's advocate. Finally, they need to be someone that I find trustworthy, who will not disclose potentially hurtful stuff to other people that is not really representative of how I actually feel.

    One other difference I might mention is this. I have Quebecois friends who came to Alberta to teach. They said that at first they found Westerners incredibly two-faced - nice to you in person and then they would air frustrations behind your back. In contrast, they would in the middle of a larger discussion involving quite a few people who were not close friends with each other disagree or call someone out on something. They came across to westerners as being blunt and making them look bad in front of others. Both found the other's behaviour somewhat hurtful and rude, when both were just doing what they would most appreciate themselves. Perhaps this is a similar case. I think Fi tends to be more live and let live generally but vocal if it feels something is important to be said. Fe struggles to stay composed and if it is losing it's composure, goes somewhere else and vents until it can come back and be kind or until it has a handle on how to bring up a discussion that will have a productive result. This may seem disengenuous to Fi, but they are really doing what they would appreciate someone else to do for them. They want a clear delineation of where the problem lies and some possible ideas for how to change it for the better, and if any discussion is made, they'd like it to be private and not emotional in a didn't see that coming sort of way.

    If I don't vent off those emotions, I feel that I will either act overly harsh in person to the person in question (and yes I know that Fiers are going to say they can feel those harsh feelings whether stated directly or no), or that I will say something I regret, or that I will keep overaccommodating and end up feeling resentful or really not being true to my principles. I really do need others' reflections of me to be able to weigh my options and choose a course of action that I feel is appropriate. I understand that I cannot affect other people's behaviour, so the only person I can control is myself. If I am going to do that, I want to make my decisions from as informed and uncoloured by temporarily passing emotions a standpoint as possible.

  3. #223
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    My ENTP friend gave me very good feedback on this thread. She read it and said she never really understood how much pain I could be in around MIL until she read the OP. I dont think she has ever seen my Fi displayed so obviously. She also noted that I distanced myself from the Fi judgment and instead just kept analyzing the issue with Te from a distance analytically in a detached manner-treating it like a puzzle. Then I just dropped the pain and began having fun with the people puzzle, trying to put the pieces together.

    She is spot on in that by doing so I distance myself form the pain inflicted by the MIL-I explained this was how I spent time w MIL to avoid being hurt. She said wasnt I hiding myself away in doing so and it seemed unhealthy to do so. Well yes, but how else can I be around someone who commits actions that so deeply violate my values-except by establishing a distance which protects my emotions?

  4. #224
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Have you ever explained this to your MIL?
    Is she causing you more pain than benefit from interacting?
    Does she generally vent this kind of stuff to you? How have you reacted in the past?

  5. #225
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    My ENTP friend gave me very good feedback on this thread. She read it and said she never really understood how much pain I could be in around MIL until she read the OP. I dont think she has ever seen my Fi displayed so obviously. She also noted that I distanced myself from the Fi judgment and instead just kept analyzing the issue with Te from a distance analytically in a detached manner-treating it like a puzzle. Then I just dropped the pain and began having fun with the people puzzle, trying to put the pieces together.

    She is spot on in that by doing so I distance myself form the pain inflicted by the MIL-I explained this was how I spent time w MIL to avoid being hurt. She said wasnt I hiding myself away in doing so and it seemed unhealthy to do so. Well yes, but how else can I be around someone who commits actions that so deeply violate my values-except by establishing a distance which protects my emotions?
    Ah, thank you. I was confused by the whole thread. People went on so many tangents, it seems. I did too. I was confused.

    Though my family has absolutely no interest in the MBTI, I believe my father is ISTJ. He is definitely T. He has no tact. He says very mean things. For example, he once said to me, "You're a f**king slob. Nobody will ever love you", to give a taste. He never said one positive thing to me probably until I was about 28 years old.

    I also live about 220 miles from my family. He's in his 70's now and he has somewhat mellowed out and humbled. However, he frequently says things that offend me. He makes racist comments or whatever. He makes hateful comments about the current family scapegoat. And he still has a beer for breakfast every day.

    One of the great things is that I do live 200 miles away. I try to write a blank check for forgiveness if I go. However, he knows if he goes too far that I will LEAVE, and possibly not come back for an entire year. Also, my Te is not a complete baby. I will (maybe) argue back. I might say those kinds of things you thought, or in between what you thought and what you actually said.

    Fortunately my mom is probably definitely F, and she will help mitigate the situation. However, it is a fact that I will leave. Sometimes I believe that I will never go back, but I do end up going back. But he knows I will leave and he'd have to get someone else to help cut the firewood. That said, he rarely ever goes so far anymore; he's much more careful with criticism. I think he likes for me to visit even if I don't end up helping with the firewood.

    I once left for a year and a half and did not explain where I was, even though I was in the same town.

    I guess the first time I ran away, I was six years old. I ran away again when I was 12. I was picked up by the sheriff when I was 12 since I had the classic bandanna on a stick hobo luggage. I ran away when I was 15 or so for like a day. I can understand running away to protect my emotions. I do NOT think it is the unhealthy thing. Two things. I believe that the skin thickness and ability to process in real time can be improved: forward reaching forgiveness or setting up a forgiveness credit account for them (which has limits). Second, I think it's only unhealthy if it is made permanent.

  6. #226
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Have you ever explained this to your MIL?
    Is she causing you more pain than benefit from interacting?
    Does she generally vent this kind of stuff to you? How have you reacted in the past?
    Ah, I was typing when this post was made. Very good. I'm interested as well.

  7. #227
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It is possible that she really is seeing neglect and is failing to properly articulate it but from the limited information that she gave there is little to no evidence of it. Additionally, I believe that the way in which she justifies her argument (ie. clouded with emotions and logical fallacies), actually discredits any real evidence that she provided. As she is the primary source of information on this issue (and being now discredited in my eyes), this leads me to conclude there is no reliable evidence of neglect, and until there is, I will presume the ISFP to be innocent of it. Following this conclusion, I then evaluate the fact that the ISTP has made (as OA said) slanderous remarks she can't back up. This is where I begin to think her spiteful and judgemental, because she has callously made an unjustifiable accusation about the ISFP over so serious an issue as child neglect. Note: irrelevant to this opinion of her behaviour, is the fact that she vented about the ISFP, and whether or not she is compassionate in her attempts to help her. I am only focused on what the ISTP herself said about the situation, everything else is unreasonable speculation.

    Hopefully this makes sense...
    All I'm hearing here is "ignoring all other information regarding the situation, which I acknowledge I don't know, she sounded really mean, therefore nothing she says is true or justified, and she is being a bitch."

    You know, just because she destroyed her ethos (in your estimation) by having a harsh opinion doesn't mean that the factual claims she makes are not true. It makes no sense to presume that what she's saying is false simply because you think she sounds too mean to be telling the truth. To make judgments about her character on such a presumption is like continuing to build a house on top of a flawed foundation.

    I honestly don't think this has anything to do with Fi or Fe. I think it has more to do with self-righteousness and holier-than-thou thinking, which can belong to anybody regardless of their functions.
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  8. #228
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    All I'm hearing here is "ignoring all other information regarding the situation, which I acknowledge I don't know, she sounded really mean, therefore nothing she says is true or justified, and she is being a bitch."

    You know, just because she destroyed her ethos (in your estimation) by having a harsh opinion doesn't mean that the factual claims she makes are not true. It makes no sense to presume that what she's saying is false simply because you think she sounds too mean to be telling the truth. To make judgments about her character on such a presumption is like continuing to build a house on top of a flawed foundation.

    I honestly don't think this has anything to do with Fi or Fe. I think it has more to do with self-righteousness and holier-than-thou thinking, which can belong to anybody regardless of their functions.
    OK, so it seems I didn't explain myself well if you are thinking this. Allow me to clarify:

    - The reason I ignore the other information I deemed 'irrelevant' is because I believe it speculative, prejudicial and non-essential (although you may disagree); I disregard it because I fear it might negatively colour my perception of her, not because I wish to ignore things that might conflict with my view. I do this not for myself but out of respect for the ISTP, so that I judge her argument, based on her argument and nothing else.

    - I didn't form an opinion (which is the operative word) on her behaviour until after I found her statements to be consistantly illogical. I deemed her 'mean' only after I concluded she rashly made unfounded accusations (see earlier posts of mine and OA for why I came to this conclusion - it takes too long to repeat) predominantly using unrelated complaints about the ISFP behaviour in general, as justification. Neglect is not the sort of accusation to be made lightly and this is the main thing I find reprehensible about her behaviour. I never said she was a bitch. Actually, I earlier said that any criticism of her conduct (in this single situation), is by no means necessarily a reflection on her overall character. People are complicated creatures. Good people do, and say, not so nice things. It would be foolish that a few harsh words, which I'm receiving second hand at that, should damn her in my eyes - and they certainly don't. Orobas has said the ISTP is a good person in general and I believe her.

    - I do not deny that she may be justified in her annoyance of the ISFP's behaviour but the evidence of neglect that she provides (and here is the crux of my argument) does not add up logically and thus isn't justifiable. Therefore, I deem her an unreliable person to judge the ISFP's parental fitness. Saying the ISFP is an unfit mother because her children run around, she's messy and she sleeps in on the weekend are not convincing arguments whatsoever. And let me be clear, she may be right, there may be neglect, but if this was a witness statement in court and the sole piece of evidence, I would certainly have reasonable doubt. One thing we can surely agree upon is that we don't know enough to determine whether the mother is neglectful or not.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #229
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    OK, so it seems I didn't explain myself well if you are thinking this. Allow me to clarify:

    - The reason I ignore the other information I deemed 'irrelevant' is because I believe it speculative, prejudicial and non-essential (although you may disagree); I disregard it because I fear it might negatively colour my perception of her, not because I wish to ignore things that might conflict with my view. I do this not for myself but out of respect for the ISTP, so that I judge her argument, based on her argument and nothing else.
    This is the thing, though. I don't think she was making an argument. If she was venting or ranting or simply being angry, there is no reason why she should have been expected to engage in proper argumentation. And even if her words in the OP were the extent of her case, properly made, all that would tell us is that her testimony is not to be trusted on its own (which, let's be honest, for claims like child neglect, her arguments and evidence could have been perfect and there would STILL need to be third-party investigation.) It would not give us license to dismiss her claims as unwarranted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    - I didn't form an opinion (which is the operative word) on her behaviour until after I found her statements to be consistantly illogical.
    Again with the logic thing. She was certainly not being logical at the time of her conversation with Orobas, so to point out that she said illogical things seems trivial to me. And anyway, the only thing one can conclude from pointing out her lack of logic is that she was being illogical. No further judgment about her or her behavior can be made without the aid of further information. Or are you saying that her "consistently illogical" statements are evidence that she was, at the time, engaging in cruel behavior? (yes, yes, I KNOW you don't mean to say that she is a cruel or bad person.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I deemed her 'mean' only after I concluded she rashly made unfounded accusations (see earlier posts of mine and OA for why I came to this conclusion - it takes too long to repeat) predominantly using unrelated complaints about the ISFP behaviour in general, as justification. Neglect is not the sort of accusation to be made lightly and this is the main thing I find reprehensible about her behaviour.
    But what if neglect is actually occurring? Sure, her "arguments" may not stand, in and of themselves, as good support for the conclusion of neglect, but that doesn't mean it's an unfounded accusation. The accusation is only reprehensible IF it's the case that there is no neglect and she just made it up. All her lack of good argumentation means is that her ethos is put into question. That doesn't mean she's not ultimately correct, as the truth of her claims can and would be ascertained independently of her words. Even if we take what she's saying at face value, and her lack of ethos cast doubt on the veracity of her claims, that does not mean that we are entitled to jump to the other conclusion that she is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I never said she was a bitch. Actually, I earlier said that any criticism of her conduct (in this single situation), is by no means necessarily a reflection on her overall character. People are complicated creatures. Good people do, and say, not so nice things. It would be foolish that a few harsh words, which I'm receiving second hand at that, should damn her in my eyes - and they certainly don't. Orobas has said the ISTP is a good person in general and I believe her.
    Like I said, I'm not worried about defending her character. When I said "she's being a bitch" in my last post, I meant to constrain it to the one instance of bitchery. I didn't mean to imply that you're saying she IS a bitch because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    - I do not deny that she may be justified in her annoyance of the ISFP's behaviour but the evidence of neglect that she provides (and here is the crux of my argument) does not add up logically and thus isn't justifiable. Therefore, I deem her an unreliable person to judge the ISFP's parental fitness. Saying the ISFP is an unfit mother because her children run around, she's messy and she sleeps in on the weekend are not convincing arguments whatsoever.
    Again, you are judging her statements in this context as one would an argument. Wouldn't it only be appropriate to judge someone's statements in terms of their logical correctness IF that is what they were trying/prepared to present? I mean, say your friend was in a fight with their SO and they called you over to rant about it over drinks. During this rant, they made such outrageous and clearly unreasonable claims as "he's so stupid, lazy, and worthless" because they were clearly angry. Would you judge their rant as one would an academic paper? Wouldn't that be the height of context-inappropriate behavior? And wouldn't it be kind of useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    And let me be clear, she may be right, there may be neglect, but if this was a witness statement in court and the sole piece of evidence, I would certainly have reasonable doubt. One thing we can surely agree upon is that we don't know enough to determine whether the mother is neglectful or not.
    Well, if this were an actual defamation case, the claims of neglect would certainly be investigated independently by a third-party. And I'm sure, if she were actually willing to keep on defending her claims, that she would prepare better testimony than what she did in the context of an informal, rant-style exchange with a confidante.


    I guess I'm just confused about what you're trying to do here. Are you trying to critique the logic of her statements alone? And if so, what do you think her lack of logic says about the truth of her claims? About her behavior?

    I am misunderstanding you because I cannot fathom what the purpose of critiquing her logic is at this point. We know simply from reading the OP that the ISTP was certainly not saying these things in the spirit of objectivity. Pointing out how the specific things she said were not logical, or that she did not adduce enough evidence in favor of her conclusions, is therefore an exercise in redundancy. It's obvious that the things she were saying were vague and laden with emotional judgment. All this tells us is that her judgment, as indicated by her words in that conversation, is not to be trusted as an accurate indicator of the reality of the situation.

    It does NOT, however, tell us that what she's saying is not true. And it does NOT tell us whether her behavior in this instance is "cruel" or "mean." To determine the former, the facts of the situation would have to be ascertained. If neglect DID happen, she would be off of the hook; she would not have defamed the mother by saying that she neglected her kids (and whatever else.) To determine the latter, we would have to know two things: (1) in what spirit she made those statements (i.e., whether she was ranting or venting, and to whom she was speaking), and (2) the extent to which her factual claims are true. Because if she said those things during a rant, or while she was venting, then how could she be held accountable for her tone? But if she had said those things TO the ISFP mother, then certainly she would be at fault for some form of insensitivity (whether cruelty or not would be up for debate.) And if most or all of the things she said turned out to be false, then we would know that she was being mean-spirited towards the ISFP.
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  10. #230
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks Tilty ... what is it about being right? I have said before that Te and Fe always need to be or think they are right, so maybe this ties into that. It's never just about feeling though, eh? It's about determining whether those feelings are justified.

    Owning feelings means that you accept that you are the originator of them and don't attribute them to being caused by anything outside yourself. It's not like other people dump a whole bag of annoyance on you if they show up late for example, you choose to feel angry. Since you choose to be angry, you can also choose not to be. ....

    But if you don't vent off those feelings, what will happen? Will you "blow up" on the other person or yourself?
    It's not that I have to be right -- but yes, my feelings have to be justifiable to myself. THAT first of all. Even, then, I might want to bounce them off someone else before I show them to the person who's involved in them. Oddly enough, the more I care about the relationship, the more likely it is I will talk to someone else about my feelings first. But anyway, no, it's never just about feeling. It's about doing something, Peacebaby, c'mon now, get with me, will ya? Feelings mean Do Something.

    I cannot choose to be angry or not to be angry. My body releases chemicals instantaneously whether I even like it or not. I have zero choice.

    Oh yes indeedy, if I can't work it out, there will be blowup.

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