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  1. #211
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I find sometimes that I need to vent off the excess emotion initially, during which I just need someone to ask me more questions for context etc. After I have calmed down, I will self-correct a bit and say, "It's not that it's really such a big deal, it's just that x, y, z..." At that point, I welcome another perspective and some reflection back. Sometimes I find that in the middle of my venting, the Fi-Te user wants to play the devil's advocate, or takes the directly opposite position from me and voices it immediately without even understanding the extent of what I've tried or why I am feeling so upset. They are making judgement about it which are like throwing more gasoline onto a fire that I am desperately trying to get under control and stamped out. The only way I can do this is to get rid of some of the things that are fueling it. If there is no safe dumping ground for it, I am left with a lot of combustible stuff on my hand and no way to prevent something terrible from happening unexpectedly.

    For me, it really does cut to the quick when someone I know well and care about assumes the worst of me and isn't even interested in finding out why someone who is normally pretty okay would suddenly have this harsh kind of reaction.
    At top part, yeah, that’s definitely true for me as well. If someone jumps the gun with devil’s advocate, it’s invalidating. I need to feel like someone is a safe dumping ground (not only for me, but that they can handle it- not take it personally- as well).

    And yeah, it really is disconcerting if someone doesn't give me credit for who I am the other 99% of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I was one of the first to use the "mirror" metaphor for Fe, AFAIK.
    You’re not going to try to trick me into paying you for having used it, are you? Cos I told myself I’m not going to fall for that anymore. (Every January, it’s “this year’s going to be different.”)

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The basic gist of it is, while Fe users may be vaguely aware of what they're feeling, they don't trust it, regard it as valid, or see it as "real" until it's reflected back at them. It can be hard for us to untangle our own emotions from our awareness of other people's emotions.
    Exactly.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #212
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    You’re not going to try to trick me into paying you for having used it, are you? Cos I told myself I’m not going to fall for that anymore. (Every January, it’s “this year’s going to be different.”)
    LOL. No, I didn't patent it. I don't even believe in patents.

    I just wanted to take the opportunity to flesh out the metaphor as far as possible while everyone was using it, and attention was being paid.

  3. #213
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And as I said before, I TOTALLY get the need to vent, and I can take it for what it is from the Fe users in my life. I mostly let it run its course unless it really goes off the rails of logic.
    Not to be a prick, but how can someone be venting and NOT "go off the rails of logic?" The content of venting is feelings, and feelings are not logical. Therefore, the content of venting is not logical.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #214
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ Similarly, not to rouse debate in this thread on the rationality of feelings or the feeling function, emotions can be either logical or illogical. Your conclusion regarding venting is therefore incomplete, flawed.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #215
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    I couldn't read everything. I stopped somewhere less than 15, then skipped to the end. Sorry. Maybe later. After hanging out at INTPc for years, I recently changed my type from INTP to INFP. This thread made me feel really tired (or maybe I'm just tired). Maybe I made a mistake in changing my type again to INFP.

    I'm about to turn 40, and I have a tendency to leave dishes in the sink and use paper plates. I just killed a mouse earlier (by showing it to the dog). I guess I've always been messy (since birth). I live in an apartment provided by the farm in which I work. In the summer, other people stay in the same building. If they are messy, then I tend to just leave the issue alone or do some cleaning myself (because I don't want to confront them). However, if they are a neat freak, I do everything I can to accommodate them.

    If they are too neat, like needing to clean under the furniture, then I just retreat to my room and basically quit spending time outside my room. I get depressed (sort of), and I don't want to talk to them. I don't want to hear any criticism from them.

    That said, I can be very neat if I want to please someone, and they are reasonable. I mean, I will break out the feng shui. I actually have creme brule scented candles right now, but left to myself, I somewhat comfortable with stacks of clutter. I'm probably a real hoarder. People have really said hurtful things to me about it. I've been threatened with evictions and termination from my job because of conflicts between my nature and a former (extremely neat) roommate.

    Thus, it would be hypocritical for me to criticize this woman. However, considering her circumstances, the demands on her seem reasonable if she is in ordinary psychological health, which it does not seem to me that she is. To know that, I would need to get involved, and find out. There are various possibilities. Perhaps she is getting more depressed from the ISTP (or maybe I'm projecting). She may be riding the situation, milking it...consciously or not. If I were in her situation and wanted to show improvement and gratitude, then I'd probably clean the whole church and do the landscaping...though the kids may drain her energy for that.

    In a way I can never be in her situation because I don't have kids, and probably will not. I have a steady job, but I don't believe I could afford kids or have any kind of destiny along those lines. Kids are expensive. There are too many consequences. Also, my living situation is a little different as I've been living in the same apartment for five years.

    Certainly, however, I can't go find out what the real situation is by exploring the woman's issues. I live too far away. I don't know how the woman with the children really feels, and why. What was/ is her life and development like? Yes, we know in general, but I don't know what her domestic experiences were specifically, and why it has led to this.

    Helping is very Christian, though in the beginning (book of Acts) they all lived communally and turned 100% of their possessions in to the church. Nowadays, in real agape, dirty and smelly are not considered. You help people, and not speak a word about it. You confess your sins openly and hide your good deeds. In that, the people in the church would be in there changing the diapers, washing the woman's feet, and such. If there is any conditionality attached, then it is not pure Christian love. No shred of reciprocity is required for pure Christian love. Did Jesus ask for a favor when washing the people's feet? I think he only said to go and do likewise.

    Now, if you are a secular agency or some kind of social club, then you need to have the people's kids wearing fancy clothes, and in the pew on time every Sunday morning. In that, you make very strict conditions from a completely non-co-dependent position that doesn't not make your responsible for other people's emotions.

    It sounds like people in this church are in between these too. I'd be between them too, probably. In fact, helping people is difficult. Some will take advantage at every turn, and some just can't be helped. Regardless, if i were involved, then I'd need to know more about the woman from the woman herself.

    In addition, I come from another perspective, which is largely transcendentalist, which suggests that I need to be careful with the woman's karma. For ultimate happiness, there may be some bottom she needs to reach and some pain she needs to face.

    You know, I saw in this National Geographic a family in India living under a water pipe. She was clapping her hands in time with a child around a pile of burning rubbish. A man sat under the water pipe. These people were getting their drinking water from drips falling from a water pipe, and that was their life. The woman looked very happy. There was no ISTP (or ISTJ like my father) to shame them. They looked happy. Apparently they had different expectations...at least in that moment. That's what I'd want to see in this woman at your church: happiness, not conformity to the expectations in my mind, per se, but happiness...not glossing things over happiness...but real bliss.

    How to heal this woman? Since it is a Christian church, I'd offer this. Clean the trash bin for her. Wash her feet. Help her. Don't put a single expectation on her. Ask her why, but just listen. And sweep her floor. Change the diapers if you are qualified. Clothe the children. Listen to her, what comes from inside her.

  6. #216
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ Similarly, not to rouse debate in this thread on the rationality of feelings or the feeling function, emotions can be either logical or illogical. Your conclusion regarding venting is therefore incomplete, flawed.
    No, to say that something is logical is to say that it follows the principles of logic. I understand that feelings (as in the MBTI "feeling" judgment) can be rational, but that's not to say they're logical. So no, venting is not logical.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #217
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I haven't read the entire thread, but I thought I'd chime in, so I hope I'm not treading peoples toes.
    Not so long ago, just over a year now, I tried to start a business and lost everything....I was a recepient of charity there for a while. It's a hard place for Fi-dom to be, and people are cruel.
    Now, I'm fairly middle class, and well educated, and I did see the signs that the bussiness was going bottoms up. I didn't just sit on my butt and do nothing. I started looking for work, any thing...
    People assumed I was too snobby to ask for jobs at cafes and fast food resturants. Told me off, in fact. The truth is I applied for everything within walking distance (which in the middle of Sydney is a fair scope). People would look at my C.V. and just laugh. (it would seem ridiculous for a scientist to be applying at Mc Donald's, no matter how I doctored my damn C.V.). Try telling people the truth, and they don't believe you. They just think you are not trying hard enough.
    I also left my C.V. at every shop, convenience store etc, etc, within walking distance, I'd pour through the news papers, web sites for hours on end, but the minute I stop to have a drink and watch telly for half an hour, it would be "why aren't you looking for a job?". Apparently I was supposed to dedicate every waking hour to this.
    When I had to pick up food vouchers once, I asked if I could change my appointment because I had a job interview at the same time, and silly me, I thought a job interview took precedence. I got told under no uncertain terms, I wouldn't eat for a week if I missed the appointment. Fortuantly, the person interviewing me was much more understanding.
    I got bailed up for keeping unsocialble hours. Do you know why I did it, I stayed up late so I could use the free internet access unhibited for hours, so I could search for jobs. That wasn't acceptable. I had to do with in socialble hours. I have many more examples of crass judgments, not well thought through.

    If I had any choice at all, I would never have accepted help. I don't recommend it. It's exceptionally hard for Fi-dom. Judgements are placed on you, that are entirely ridiculous. And you should have seen the self congratulatory smuggness when I got a job....like it was a surprise, I'd get back on my feet again. (Angry, just slightly). For god sakes, I had jobs before, a car and a house! It's like it wasn't bad luck, there must have been some thing wrong with me. Oh, and during that time, I didn't even feel like a real person. I have never experienced marginilisation until then. I was lucky, not to kill myself from overwhelming depression.

    I had never worked so hard in my life...I was glad I had a job so I could rest.

    It's not easy being on charity. I can't honestly see anyone doing that unless they had too. I couldn't wait to get off it.

    I should make it clear, this isn't an anti-Fe tirade, but rather a different spin on the situation.
    I'm grateful for the help I recieved, but I did lose independence of though, and freedom of expression there for a while. Mostly I'm glad that I got privacy back. For some reason, once you accept charity, there seems to be unwritten rule that your whole life is open to critisism.
    I don't think it's Fe thing, it's a you're public property thing.
    Last edited by CrystalViolet; 02-06-2011 at 05:21 AM. Reason: additional thoughts.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #218
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Not to be a prick, but how can someone be venting and NOT "go off the rails of logic?" The content of venting is feelings, and feelings are not logical. Therefore, the content of venting is not logical.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ Similarly, not to rouse debate in this thread on the rationality of feelings or the feeling function, emotions can be either logical or illogical. Your conclusion regarding venting is therefore incomplete, flawed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    No, to say that something is logical is to say that it follows the principles of logic. I understand that feelings (as in the MBTI "feeling" judgment) can be rational, but that's not to say they're logical. So no, venting is not logical.
    To be clear, no Jungian function is "logical," per se. Certainly not by any strict definition of the word. The judging functions have a desire for particular kinds of results. Te looks for efficiency, practicality and optimization. Fe looks for harmonious congeniality and diplomacy. Fi looks for things being "right." Ti looks for things being "correct," occasionally being interested in being logically correct.

    The cognitive process, human thinking in general, is not "logical." Normal human thought is, in fact, beyond logic.

    Computers are necessarily logical, in the strict sense. Yet the things that a computer does can be completely unreasonable, irrational, and bizarre, all the while being entirely logically correct.

    It is entirely possible for "feelings" (I'm using the word VERY loosely) to result in an absolutely correct "logical" conclusion, even though logic was never consciously applied. It is certainly possible for "feelings" to be far more reasonable, rational, wise and understanding than any "logical" computer.

    Logic is, in human cognitive terms, no more than a metric of self-consistency. It requires a human mind capable of perceiving and judging to credit any logical statement with any degree of real validity.

    So, by Orangey's standard, hardly anything anyone says or does is "logical." When one says something like, "unless it [venting] really goes off the rails of logic," criticizing such by saying that venting cannot be logical in the first place is to be obtuse. The statements of the venting can be demonstrably logical without being sourced from strictly logical analysis. And given the context of the statement, there is a "fuzzy logic" standard implied, where one's statements are predominantly valid without being 100% logically correct by some arbitrary standard.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #219
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Thanks, uumlau. I read Orangey's response and debated how to respond to it (thanks too Orangey for your post). Because, as you say, when it comes to human thought, there really is no such thing as yielding pure "logic" - feelings are our first language and to me the only true universal one.

    There is interesting research done by Antonio Damasio, a neuroscientist who has studied people with brain injuries damaging the part of the brain where emotions are generated. They were normal in every other respect, but had lost the ability to feel emotions. Damasio found these folks were seriously impaired in their ability to make decisions - they could logically spell out what the pros and cons of each choice presented to them, but couldn't make a decision. And since there are usually pros and cons on either side of each potential decision, we use emotion to help us make that pivotal final choice, even when we think we are being totally logical.

    I think people who insist that they are being purely logical are demonstrating the highest level of illogic possible!

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Peacebaby, as far as Fe users just owning their feelings instead of having to talk to them to someone else -- the problem is, I am never sure if I am right. I need corroboration.
    Thanks Tilty ... what is it about being right? I have said before that Te and Fe always need to be or think they are right, so maybe this ties into that. It's never just about feeling though, eh? It's about determining whether those feelings are justified.

    So what feelings should I have silently owned? Feeling rejected and manipulated? Beginning to suspect she didn't like me at all? Beginning to feel angry with her?
    Owning feelings means that you accept that you are the originator of them and don't attribute them to being caused by anything outside yourself. It's not like other people dump a whole bag of annoyance on you if they show up late for example, you choose to feel angry. Since you choose to be angry, you can also choose not to be. Now, I am grossly simplifying the idea of choosing how to feel and I am not saying you let other people walk all over you, nor am I saying you don't pay attention to those emotional message prompts. But if you don't vent off those feelings, what will happen? Will you "blow up" on the other person or yourself?

    Yes, I want feedback when I'm venting about a person. I am hoping they will tell me something that sheds light on behavior that's, to me, clearly wrong, and absent some excuse or reason, indicates a bad intent. Also I'm hoping if they think I'm being hysterical or too critical they will say so. I want them to have a reason, though.
    Cool, thanks for that.

    I don't want to hurt peoples' feelings, but I am more interested in being a good friend to them than I am concerned about their feelings.
    Fascinating. Thanks again.

    -----

    Thanks Tallulah, Z Buck and fidelia too, more to share on your posts later. It's all great stuff you have shared. I find a certain delightful irony that we (Fi and Fe) both need to vent from time to time, but the causes of that and the contents of the venting are oh so different.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #220
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    “Feelings are not supposed to be logical. Dangerous is the man who has rationalized his emotions.” - David Borenstein

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    To be clear, no Jungian function is "logical," per se. Certainly not by any strict definition of the word. The judging functions have a desire for particular kinds of results. Te looks for efficiency, practicality and optimization. Fe looks for harmonious congeniality and diplomacy. Fi looks for things being "right." Ti looks for things being "correct," occasionally being interested in being logically correct.
    Right. So?

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The cognitive process, human thinking in general, is not "logical." Normal human thought is, in fact, beyond logic.
    Again, so what? What does this have to do with what I said?

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Computers are necessarily logical, in the strict sense. Yet the things that a computer does can be completely unreasonable, irrational, and bizarre, all the while being entirely logically correct.
    Yes, this is why something can be rational and not necessarily logical. I already said that.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It is entirely possible for "feelings" (I'm using the word VERY loosely) to result in an absolutely correct "logical" conclusion, even though logic was never consciously applied.
    A conclusion in and of itself cannot be said to be logical. It can only be said to be logical if it is implied by a valid form of argument. Thus, if I come to a conclusion by way of "feeling," and I reconstruct it as some argument after the fact, that is a rationalization of what was originally a non-logical process. And rationalization is fallacious.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It is certainly possible for "feelings" to be far more reasonable, rational, wise and understanding than any "logical" computer.
    Again, I already said that feelings (as in MBTI "feeling" judgment) can be rational. I never implied that because feelings were not logical, that they were not rational or valuable. In fact, I explicitly stated the contrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Logic is, in human cognitive terms, no more than a metric of self-consistency. It requires a human mind capable of perceiving and judging to credit any logical statement with any degree of real validity.
    No, validity is a measure of logical correctness, and logical correctness alone. An argument is valid if its premises always lead to true conclusions. It takes a human mind to determine whether a logically valid statement is sound, or whether the premises are warranted.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So, by Orangey's standard, hardly anything anyone says or does is "logical." When one says something like, "unless it [venting] really goes off the rails of logic," criticizing such by saying that venting cannot be logical in the first place is to be obtuse. The statements of the venting can be demonstrably logical without being sourced from strictly logical analysis.
    Again, if the statements of venting can be shown to "be demonstrably logical without being sourced from strictly logical analysis," then it is merely through a process of rationalization. That doesn't mean that feeling is logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    And given the context of the statement, there is a "fuzzy logic" standard implied, where one's statements are predominantly valid without being 100% logically correct by some arbitrary standard.
    Again, validity is strictly a measure of logical correctness, so you are incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks, uumlau. I read Orangey's response and debated how to respond to it (thanks too Orangey for your post). Because, as you say, when it comes to human thought, there really is no such thing as yielding pure "logic" - feelings are our first language and to me the only true universal one.
    .
    .
    I think people who insist that they are being purely logical are demonstrating the highest level of illogic possible!
    Thanks too for your post in response. To be clear, I never insisted upon being purely logical, or implied that by being purely logical, one would come to more perfect conclusions. I simply stated that venting is not logical, and that to hold venting to standards of logic is to destroy the purpose of the act.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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