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  1. #11
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hehe, the first time I tried to cash a check, i ended up depositing a $1200 check from myself to myself....the bank was like WTF? But I guess...we really dont innately understand or see Fe structure and we have to work to gain Te structure....it isnt that we mean to be irresponsible...it's that it is a lot of work and takes maturity and time.
    I know that your bank example is simply an example, and maybe I'm misunderstanding how you're applying it, but I don't see how that is relevant at all to Fe - why is knowing how to deposit a check tied to Fe? Or, edit - this bank example is you working to gain understanding of Te structure?

    If anything N's might be more clueless as far as practical things, but I fail to see how it, or even several of the housekeepng examples (just knowing proper nutrition, or just knowing insulation, ec) have anything to do with Fe. Perhaps more tied to Si/learning by experience/tradition? So those being raised in less-than-ideal-environments will have that much more of a lack of knowledge of better ways to go about doing things or raising their own kids?

    That is the part I dont understand...I would like to understand as...I just dont get it. To get it allows me to not have to judge the ISTP as cruel, but just as viewing the world differently, thus her harshness is simply my misunderstanding.
    There may not be anything to do with her viewing the world differently - she may just be a harsh, cruel person. May just be a character trait; again, not tied as much to Fe. (I don't personally think this is the case, I'm just trying to highlight the fact that it may not be an inherently Fe way)

    Or, too, she could simply be utilizing langauge in a descriptive/'flowery' way and she doesn't mean for it to be taken literally - so describing the children as dogs -- she's beng illustrative, she doesn't really think they are less than children - although she probably DOES think they are being raised poorly so there is some relevance to the comparison. (I mean... I guess I wouldn't immediately be offended by choice of words - I'd look at everything else being said. Which I'm not saying you're not doing, btw. )

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  2. #12
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I don't think she's necessarily cruel--I wouldn't go that far--what it sounds like to me, is that she feels like she and others have given to the family, and have seen very little in the way of gratefulness or evidence that they're using the help for an actual leg-up. So she's venting to you, since she feels close to you. I wouldn't take everything she says literally, because she's probably just very frustrated, and since she can't do anything about the situation (well, until she did), she needed an outlet for the frustration. It sounds like a mix of things that are true, and things that are probably exaggerated due to her frustration.

    I do draw a distinction between what she said and your interpretation of it, re: the children/dogs thing. She said the lady lets her kids run around like dogs. You immediately thought she was calling the kids dogs. She wasn't. What I took it to mean was she lets them run around without supervision, more like one would a pet, rather than a small child. She doesn't see to it that the children get the proper nutrition, see that they're taken to the doctor, whatever. It's not an excessively kind thing to say, but it's not calling the actual children dogs.

    I think what this situation needs is a perspective somewhere in the middle--facing the reality of the situation while showing some kindness and understanding toward the woman. This family does sound like it needs assistance.

    One other thing--it could be that the ISTP, being a leader of this small church, has seen many instances of this type of situation over the years. Many, many people will come to any given church asking for help with bills and groceries, even if they're not members of the church and don't plan to be. Yes, it's a tenet of Christianity to take in the less fortunate, etc., but one can grow a bit cynical when one sees people taking advantage. Not saying that this woman is, but it does happen. Many churches see people asking for money, money is given, the church never hears from the person again, person goes to another church in town to repeat the process. It happens quite a bit.
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  3. #13
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    First of all... an ISTP isn't going to use Fe in a very mature way. They're going to show a lot more criticism and a lot less compassion than an FJ, because Ti is their dominant function. They may seem to have Fe undertones, and it's true that they use Ti/Fe. But I think the Ti was what got to you in this situation. You were upset that they were being critical of her, and assuming that how things worked was obvious and didn't need to be explained. That's a function of Ti, not Fe.

    Now, I don't think a typical FJ would have dealt with things the same way at all. Yes, I might have thought those things to myself about her, but I wouldn't have insisted on telling people that I thought them. I would probably be more vague, and say that I felt the children were being abused and neglected due to their parents not knowing how to take care of them. I would be far more focused on how bad I felt that I hadn't been able to help them improve their situation, and how I didn't understand how to get through to them. Also, I would have made a point to let her know that we didn't mind rearranging our schedule to take her to the doctor. I would go out of my way to help with that, and make sure they knew it wasn't a burden.

    The thing is, she was being more blunt and critical, where I would tend to feel sorry for the person and wonder how I could help them. This person was just focusing on how the other person had failed, and not thinking of what they could do about it.

    Now, I do have to admit, though... what's happening to those children sounds horrible. You can't deny that, although I don't think the ISTPs way of responding to the situation was helpful at all, and might have actually made things worse. I hope that something is eventually done for them.

  4. #14
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I know that your bank example is simply an example, and maybe I'm misunderstanding how you're applying it, but I don't see how that is relevant at all to Fe - why is knowing how to deposit a check tied to Fe? Or, edit - this bank example is you working to gain understanding of Te structure?

    If anything N's might be more clueless as far as practical things, but I fail to see how it, or even several of the housekeepng examples (just knowing proper nutrition, or just knowing insulation, ec) have anything to do with Fe. Perhaps more tied to Si/learning by experience/tradition? Which goes to your point of those being raised in less-than-ideal-environments will have that much more of a lack of knowledge of better ways to go about doing things or raising their own kids?
    Umm, so perhaps my examples of the bank and housekeeping are examples of myself (a representative FP) coming from an unstructured childhood and having to "learn" Te as I grew older. From what I have seen-which is of course limited-but even little Je kids already seek to build structure and order into their surroundings. There are "right" ways to do things-for Te or Fe reasons I suppose-thus I figure as they grow this structure may seem to be "obvious" by the time they are adults because it has been a part of their worldview from a young age. Does that make sense? To hear a Te domaux give me Te feedback is reasonable, and once pointed out it seems pretty obvious even though I was sort of oblivious. However Fe "right" ways to do things? I just sort of float along lost as I cant figure out what the next "right" thing to do is...

    This sort of highlights why the mom may have been somewhat lost when expected to perform to standards that she didnt innately understand. The ISTP assumed they were obvious, but to the presumed ISFP mom it was like walking in a dark room with her hands held out...she knew she messed up when she hit the furniture...?

  5. #15
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Tallahah and athenian, I have to run but your comments and thoughts were actually really valuable and have given me more insight into her perspective.

    As Randominity mentioned, she seems the comments as blunt. I cant help but see them as cruel and very hurtful. Let me think on why I perceive them differently from what you guys are seeing....I am actually a very blunt person myself, but perhaps I am blunt with respect to the actions of others, but never the person... I do know I would be heartbroken and devastated if someone said these things to me or about me... so I suspect the FP mom may be hurting a bit but she is very quiet and is taking action by moving out rather than speaking out. It is a Te, albeit a weak Te, solution to Fi hurt. (But yes, I agree very much that the family needs accountability and firm guidance, and the children do worry me...they really are lost and do need help very much)

  6. #16
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Why can't you say, mildly, "Oh, don't be so hard on her." I think you should speak your truth about the situation. I don't think you should have left the ISTP under the impression you were comfortable or in cahoots with her being so contemptuous.

    It does seem like an almost insurmountable lot of ignorance is going on there with the mother, and maybe the ISTP just feels overwhelmed and what she's doing is expressing frustration, but I do hear some contemptuousness, and maybe she just can't identify. It's difficult when you have had what people call "a decent upbringing" to understand how someone else doesn't even know where to start, can't seem to figure out the basics. You could help her identify. I would really try to soften her heart about this girl being only 20 and raised in foster care herself.

  7. #17
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    From somebody "in the church," that attitude seems incredibly inappropriate. Jesus said to love both your neighbors and your enemies; that attitude isn't exactly what I'd call a loving attitude. You can't love somebody and hate them. It sounds to me like this woman hates the family
    You lose.

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  8. #18
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    First of all, I think the ISTP sounds more like an ISTJ. I've known a couple, my mother included, that behave in this way. They have very specific demands for people who are obligated to them in some way, but they are sometimes too prideful and/or too harshly judgmental to spell out expectations which, to them, should be obvious to the other person. I know that my mother almost takes it as an insult when people do not behave as they are expected to behave in their given position/post, and she reacts by becoming silently contemptuous. The thing is, though, that she's not contemptuous of the person per se, but rather contemptuous of their behavior. Once the behavior changes, all is well with the world. It's not the most helpful attitude, no, especially for emotional support or counseling, but it's not about hating anyone.

    As for the OP, I am failing to see what the problem is? The "ISTP" is clearly just venting, and (no matter how harsh or unforgiving her choice of words) that doesn't change the fact that her assistance has been of material (if not emotional) advantage to the family. Furthermore, a lot of the things the so-called ISTP described, if true, are indeed to be condemned. Children cannot subsist on a diet of milk alone, and poor hygiene will certainly contribute to illness and health problems. Those are facts.

    It's especially egregious that the mother declined getting medical attention for her kids because she had wounded feelings/pride. That is the height of stupidity.

    Perhaps the best solution would be to get someone who is better at working with people to help this ISFP lady with day-to-day things, since she's such a sensitive flower?
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  9. #19
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Orobas, if this offends you so greatly why don't you offer your assistance to the woman and her family in need? Let her and her kids live with you until she can get on her feet. Give it a try and see what you have to say after two weeks.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  10. #20
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    As for the OP, I am failing to see what the problem is? The "ISTP" is clearly just venting, and (no matter how harsh or unforgiving her choice of words) that doesn't change the fact that her assistance has been of material (if not emotional) advantage to the family. Furthermore, a lot of the things the so-called ISTP described, if true, are indeed to be condemned. Children cannot subsist on a diet of milk alone, and poor hygiene will certainly contribute to illness and health problems. Those are facts.

    It's especially egregious that the mother declined getting medical attention for her kids because she had wounded feelings/pride. That is the height of stupidity.

    Perhaps the best solution would be to get someone who is better at working with people to help this ISFP lady with day-to-day things, since she's such a sensitive flower?
    Yes! All this.
    -end of thread-

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