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  1. #181
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    It's almost like, if the ISFP mom is a bad mom, she deserves all the commentary raised against her. Is that how some folks feel?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #182
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's almost like, if the ISFP mom is a bad mom, she deserves all the commentary raised against her. Is that how some folks feel?
    No, but it's not irrelevant, because it means that the ISTP isn't just badmouthing someone JUST TO BE MEAN. It's born of frustration and trying to understand/reconcile within her own mind.

    Can y'all not see how accusing the ISTP of being cruel when it likely wasn't her intention is kinda the same thing as the ISTP saying things about the ISFP? Again, not to beat a dead horse, but I have a giant problem with the use of the word "cruel" being used here. Apparently, it's a common word for Fi-ers to use, so it must not carry the same weight as it would to me. For me to call someone cruel, they'd have to be along the lines of a sorority hazer, that woman who pretended to be a teen boy on Myspace and made her daughter's friend commit suicide, an animal or child abuser, etc. Cruel is a loaded word. And again...I know Fi folks have a hard time with the fact that it's behind the other woman's back, but to Fe, cruel would be to say those things to her face, making her feel bad, when this was just a venting session, and the ISTP is likely just working through her feelings about the situation. The ISFP will never hear these things...hence saying them to a TRUSTED confidante. It's possible ISTP has more respect for the ISFP than it sounds, though.

    I also know that Fi folk see this thread as a scientific exploration, instead of talking behind someone's back. It's not impossible for family members (or bosses, or friends) to find out what you've written about them online, especially if they check their own stuff on your computer. I don't talk specifics on this site, b/c I know things can be traced back to me. I just don't see that much difference in venting there and venting here.
    Something Witty

  3. #183
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    People who judge people who judge.

    Just a point about Christians who do good deeds even when they are not feeling it: they do it for Christ's sake. Sometimes you don't get past your own human nature enough to be truly saintly and love every person and not judge anyone, but you can at least do what Jesus asked you to do, which is feed and clothe and shelter the poor, visit the sick, visit the prisoners...It's like having a job. Sometimes you hate your stinking job, but you do it because it's your job. Well, sometimes you really don't feel like doing good works, but you do them anyway, because they need to be done and it's your job because took a vow to live as a Christian to the best of your ability. It's not personal, actually. It's not about liking the person so you decide you will help them, or about feeling generous toward someone, so you decide to take them in. It's not even about showing off. Even Mother Theresa said very explicitly that sometimes she wasn't feelin' it, not even a little bit, and some days she wasn't even sure there was a God.

    Basing your Christianity on whether you feel like it or not is not a very good approach because of course you won't always feel like it. That doesn't mean you get to quit. You may actively dislike who has been put in your path for you to help, and that's too bad, too. Sometimes it's just like that. There are certain ways of being in the world that Jesus was very clear about -- pay your taxes, for example, whether you support the government or not. Be a lawful citizen.

    I kind of see the church lady caught in that struggle. Sometimes when I've succeeded brilliantly in acting right, the more of a struggle it was, the more I would like to vent about how hard it is.

    As far as some of the judgments on the kids, I wonder if she's saying the mother seems to have no plan to work with them -- she just holds the baby, as opposed to making eye contact with it, talking to it, encouraging it to talk, playing peek-a-boo or where's your nose etc -- same thing with the older child, who, when you speak to it, it just looks at you, and the mother doesn't prompt it to teach it basic conversation skills -- "Can you say hello to Mrs. Church Lady? Say hello." The kids run around like dogs -- as opposed to her reading them Dr. Seuss books or some other directed, interactive activity that would help them learn to focus and follow directions and be ready to learn in school. They don't eat food or seem puzzled by it because they're not encouraged to eat new things or to eat at all. The complaint seems to me to be more that she's not trying than about whether or not she is getting results.

    I agree with whoever posted upthread that the church lady is judging the young mother as a mother, not as a person. She's evaluating her job performance. It's not so personal.

  4. #184
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I agree with all that, Tilty. Well said. If we waited for our desires to line up with our duties all the time, we'd get very little done. Expecting her to be perfectly charitable of spirit even when she's frustrated likely causes conflicting feelings in her, too. Feelings that need to be resolved. Yes, she'll keep doing what she's supposed to, but how to reconcile her frustrations with the seeming ingratitude/incompetence/whatever she perceives in the ISFP? They have to be extroverted so she won't go nuts.

    I will say, though, I wonder if the ISFP is depressed, too. It may be that she feels overwhelmed in her situation and is simply not up to obligations that might seem easily doable otherwise. I could be projecting here, though.
    Something Witty

  5. #185
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I can surely imagine she'd be depressed and confused.

  6. #186
    A window to the soul
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    Complaining behind someone's back is a counter-productive waste of time and energy. I'm struggling to find any benefits.

  7. #187
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Complaining behind someone's back is a counter-productive waste of time and energy. I'm struggling to find any benefits.
    You also lean waaaaay closer to Fi than Fe. Fe needs to vent, and doesn't view it as "talking behind someone's back."
    Something Witty

  8. #188
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    Be part of the solution, not the problem. I'm the type that would help the ISFP connect with the resources that would help her. If I saw a financial need, I'd probably help her out if she was living in my place. The ISFP's cleanliness would not bother me, as it's none of my business, nor would I make it my business. If I was concerned that her children were abused, I would turn her into child protective services for investigation, not vent. Again, venting is counter-productive.

    In summary, I'm not holding in any negative feelings; thus, there's nothing to vent about. Why? Because I've taken action to solve the problem or facilitate positive change here. As a result, I'll sleep well at night.

    ^And that's who I am.

  9. #189
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Be part of the solution, not the problem. I'm the type that would be helping the ISFP connect with the resources that would help her. If I saw a financial need, I'd probably help her out if she was living in my place. The ISFP's cleanliness would not bother me, as it's none of my business, nor would I make it my business. If I was concerned that her children were abused, I would turn her into child protective services for investigation, not vent. Again, venting is counter-productive.

    In summary, I'm saying I'm not holding in any negative feelings at all. There's nothing to vent about. I've solved the problem or facilitated positive change here. As a result, I'll sleep well at night. I'm not suggesting anybody hold in any negative feelings. I'm saying take positive action.

    ^And that's who I am.
    This is so self-righteous, I can't even. And it's not even adding to the discussion. It's spreading platitudes and flowers and saying what you would hypothetically do in a perfect situation. Which is kind of easy for anyone to do, who isn't actually in the situation.
    Something Witty

  10. #190
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    ^ You don't know me: I'm a good person, I care about people, I hold no ill wills, and I help people when I can. I'm proactive. In my posts, I'm trying to convey that I don't fully appreciate what this has to do with Fe or Fi. I also don't see the ISTP/ISFP's situation as complicated.

    With that said, I have nothing more to add to this discussion.

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