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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] An Fe-Fi negative convo

Esoteric Wench

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Hmm.. often hear an FJ will try and explain something to me and I dont acknowledge it-either I dont agree or I sincerely dont understand that a line was being drawn. So they get "louder" and eventually, by the time I notice there is an issue, are Fe screaming in frustration and really upset with me.

I suspect MIL is in a cycle kinda like this. I am not agreeing with her, but dont argue her judgment, and will counter her judgments with facts or observations rather than agree or ask questions. So she just keeps stating the judgments more and more bluntly....and I just withdraw more an more...thus she gets louder and louder...

To be honest, I don't even understand this 'getting louder' behavior. Is this just repeating what she's said previously because she thinks you aren't hearing/understanding what she's saying? And/or she doesn't like the responses you are giving or thinks based on what you're saying that you're not understanding her points?? Is this something you've encountered with other Fe's in your life, or is just your MIL? If the latter, I wouldn't even attribute to an Fe/Fi thing at all - sounds like her own behavioral pattern or something like that.

Actually even with the former, a behavior does not equal a cognitive function/focus/weighting process, either. So the act of getting more vocal/loud isn't tied directly to Fe OR Fi. ANY individual - no matter what their cognitive function makeup - could get louder or more frustrated if they feel communication/understanding isn't happening, and some people (Fe-ers or Fi-ers) will be liable to react to this by retreating (which would be your snail example, which is something that I would tend to do too), or else by becoming even more vocal/loud to match the original persons' loudness (which is something both my INFJ friend and her INTJ boyfriend do - both of them escalate into anger/offense when it comes to arguments or misunderstandings, whereas I'm opposite, I tend to withdraw and detach, etc). My point being - this interactional style/ conflict-resolution style goes beyond cog. functions and often ties into ones own trigger points and sensitivities and how they have learned to cope with those triggers.

I think I understand what Orobas means by "getting louder." I've noticed this kind of dynamic between Fe and Fi users before. However, it's not always the Fe user who gets louder. Fi users can get louder, too.

When I'm on the receiving end of an Fe user's increasingly loudness, it feels just as Orobas described it: It's sort of like the Fe user doesn't feel validated by my silence, or they think I missed the point and they get increasingly more and more blunt with me until they just boil over with anger toward me. (Whew that is always stressful when that happens. And I'm often completely surprised by the eruption coming my way.)

When the dynamic is reversed and I, an Fi user, is getting louder with an Fe user... well, it doesn't feel like I'm getting increasingly blunt. More like I'm getting increasingly "truthy." In other words, I ramp up my Fi truthiness activity to the point where I'm calling it like I see it, consequences be damned. (And, I can tell it's stressful to the Fe user, but it's like I can't stop what I'm doing.)

So I guess I agree with Cadesco that increasing loudness isn't necessarily related to cognitive functions. But it seems to me that the way increasing loudness manifests and the way it is received, IS related to cognitive function. As the stress increases, our cognitive functions sort of "run home to momma" and revert to just doing what they each do best... in this case of getting louder, Fe makes increasingly blunt statements about the situation as they see it, and Fi gets more truthy and authentic as it defines truth and authenticity.

For the person on the receiving end of the "loudness" there have to be differences, too. I'm not so sure I fully understand these. It seems like Fe users are far more likely to avoid confrontation via the avoid, the ignore, and the doorslam. I think Fi users are more likely to want to hash it out and clear the air. (I could be talking from my Te perspective here, but it feels right to me.)

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Does it ring true to you?
 

Poki

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I think I understand what Orobas means by "getting louder." I've noticed this kind of dynamic between Fe and Fi users before. However, it's not always the Fe user who gets louder. Fi users can get louder, too.

When I'm on the receiving end of an Fe user's increasingly loudness, it feels just as Orobas described it: It's sort of like the Fe user doesn't feel validated by my silence, or they think I missed the point and they get increasingly more and more blunt with me until they just boil over with anger toward me. (Whew that is always stressful when that happens. And I'm often completely surprised by the eruption coming my way.)

When the dynamic is reversed and I, an Fi user, is getting louder with an Fe user... well, it doesn't feel like I'm getting increasingly blunt. More like I'm getting increasingly "truthy." In other words, I ramp up my Fi truthiness activity to the point where I'm calling it like I see it, consequences be damned. (And, I can tell it's stressful to the Fe user, but it's like I can't stop what I'm doing.)

So I guess I agree with Cadesco that increasing loudness isn't necessarily related to cognitive functions. But it seems to me that the way increasing loudness manifests and the way it is received, IS related to cognitive function. As the stress increases, our cognitive functions sort of "run home to momma" and revert to just doing what they each do best... in this case of getting louder, Fe makes increasingly blunt statements about the situation as they see it, and Fi gets more truthy and authentic as it defines truth and authenticity.

For the person on the receiving end of the "loudness" there have to be differences, too. I'm not so sure I fully understand these. It seems like Fe users are far more likely to avoid confrontation via the avoid, the ignore, and the doorslam. I think Fi users are more likely to want to hash it out and clear the air. (I could be talking from my Te perspective here, but it feels right to me.)

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Does it ring true to you?

But blunt is "truthy". Some Fi users are just "truthy" more often then others. I am confused as to the difference between "truthy" and blunt. Arent they both "what one believes" and you end up with 2 people getting loud in regards to what they believe until one person wins?

I get loud to accomplish something, and getting my point across is not always the reason.
 

onemoretime

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I think I understand what Orobas means by "getting louder." I've noticed this kind of dynamic between Fe and Fi users before. However, it's not always the Fe user who gets louder. Fi users can get louder, too.

When I'm on the receiving end of an Fe user's increasingly loudness, it feels just as Orobas described it: It's sort of like the Fe user doesn't feel validated by my silence, or they think I missed the point and they get increasingly more and more blunt with me until they just boil over with anger toward me. (Whew that is always stressful when that happens. And I'm often completely surprised by the eruption coming my way.)

When the dynamic is reversed and I, an Fi user, is getting louder with an Fe user... well, it doesn't feel like I'm getting increasingly blunt. More like I'm getting increasingly "truthy." In other words, I ramp up my Fi truthiness activity to the point where I'm calling it like I see it, consequences be damned. (And, I can tell it's stressful to the Fe user, but it's like I can't stop what I'm doing.)

So I guess I agree with Cadesco that increasing loudness isn't necessarily related to cognitive functions. But it seems to me that the way increasing loudness manifests and the way it is received, IS related to cognitive function. As the stress increases, our cognitive functions sort of "run home to momma" and revert to just doing what they each do best... in this case of getting louder, Fe makes increasingly blunt statements about the situation as they see it, and Fi gets more truthy and authentic as it defines truth and authenticity.

For the person on the receiving end of the "loudness" there have to be differences, too. I'm not so sure I fully understand these. It seems like Fe users are far more likely to avoid confrontation via the avoid, the ignore, and the doorslam. I think Fi users are more likely to want to hash it out and clear the air. (I could be talking from my Te perspective here, but it feels right to me.)

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Does it ring true to you?

Negative emotions are burdensome. A burden shared is a burden halved. Often, I just want someone to get pissed along with me, since that lets me know that if it gets worse, I've got an ally in that situation.
 

Poki

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Negative emotions are burdensome. A burden shared is a burden halved. Often, I just want someone to get pissed along with me, since that lets me know that if it gets worse, I've got an ally in that situation.

One of the things I use alot is "just blame me", because I normally dont care what other people think about me. Its my way to share or take the burden. I have several other methods I use as well to "take" the burden. I do not share negative emotions though for this reason.
 

Tallulah

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I think I understand what Orobas means by "getting louder." I've noticed this kind of dynamic between Fe and Fi users before. However, it's not always the Fe user who gets louder. Fi users can get louder, too.

When I'm on the receiving end of an Fe user's increasingly loudness, it feels just as Orobas described it: It's sort of like the Fe user doesn't feel validated by my silence, or they think I missed the point and they get increasingly more and more blunt with me until they just boil over with anger toward me. (Whew that is always stressful when that happens. And I'm often completely surprised by the eruption coming my way.)

When the dynamic is reversed and I, an Fi user, is getting louder with an Fe user... well, it doesn't feel like I'm getting increasingly blunt. More like I'm getting increasingly "truthy." In other words, I ramp up my Fi truthiness activity to the point where I'm calling it like I see it, consequences be damned. (And, I can tell it's stressful to the Fe user, but it's like I can't stop what I'm doing.)

So I guess I agree with Cadesco that increasing loudness isn't necessarily related to cognitive functions. But it seems to me that the way increasing loudness manifests and the way it is received, IS related to cognitive function. As the stress increases, our cognitive functions sort of "run home to momma" and revert to just doing what they each do best... in this case of getting louder, Fe makes increasingly blunt statements about the situation as they see it, and Fi gets more truthy and authentic as it defines truth and authenticity.

For the person on the receiving end of the "loudness" there have to be differences, too. I'm not so sure I fully understand these. It seems like Fe users are far more likely to avoid confrontation via the avoid, the ignore, and the doorslam. I think Fi users are more likely to want to hash it out and clear the air. (I could be talking from my Te perspective here, but it feels right to me.)

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Does it ring true to you?

I'm not sure I get "loud," being a fairly soft-spoken person, but I can see myself getting more insistent if I feel like instead of hearing what I'm actually trying to say, someone is trying to get me not to be "mean," or insisting on reframing the situation. I'm open to hearing alternative points of view, but not if I feel like the person is not listening to me at all. And I definitely understand being fair and playing the devil's advocate, but if my friend is defending the other party exclusively when they don't even know the other party, and not giving me the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to get frustrated and irritated, yes. Absolutely. I may get frustrated and show it, or I may just shut down, and be tempted to re-evaluate how well we know each other.

As to the last bit, yes, I identify with that. I tend to retreat, especially because Fi-ers don't air things out in the same language I do, and I'm more likely to feel picked on or scolded, and then explode (and I don't want to explode). I can confront my ENFJ friend, we have it out and it blows over in less than 5 minutes, because we process things similarly. It really just depends on the particular person I'm having issues with.
 

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^ strangely, let's say proteanmix and I had a big argument in person - I am pretty sure her and I would go at similarly, a big mutually agreed-on 'xplosion, and then we'd work it out to get things aired and back to normal. Her ability to just say it plain, and mine to truthiness in a conflict situation would be .... compatible.

Just a thought, naturally I wouldn't really want to get in a big argument with protean, I am a 9 after all! Peace is preferable.

But ironically I would be willing to do battle to get there. :laugh:

So to me it's more than just language, or Fe should vent to Fe and vice versa ... there are other dynamics too me thinks, as you say Tallulah. INFJ's do process differently.
 

Esoteric Wench

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But blunt is "truthy". Some Fi users are just "truthy" more often then others. I am confused as to the difference between "truthy" and blunt. Arent they both "what one believes" and you end up with 2 people getting loud in regards to what they believe until one person wins?

I get loud to accomplish something, and getting my point across is not always the reason.

This is an excellent point, Poki, that I hadn't considered. Maybe it's more the subject matter of the bluntness. If I think about it, Fe users seem to make increasingly blunt statements about the objective facts of a situation. Not usually assessments about the inner essence of the people involved.

I'm feeling around here but it seems sort of like an Fe user might say, "So and so did this, and that was an *ssholish" thing to do." Whereas an Fi user is increasingly blunt with their Fi judgments about the essence of a person. It's sort of like the Fi user is speaking in archetypes and universal truths like: "So and so did this, and they have no compassion for other people." (Read that this evaluation gets at the very nature of the person. It critiques their inner essence.)

^^^^^
Seems like there is a subtle difference between these two statements. Perhaps the Fe user is noting facts and observations of their outside world. The Fi user is making a statement about their judgment of the core essence of another person. So you're right that they are both blunt. It's just a different focus area.
 

sculpting

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I think Tallahah and esoteric captured what I meant by loud-really more insistent and forceful due to a feeling of frustration. I think proteanmix and Fidelia were actually the ones who told me I seemed oblivious and pointed out the increasing frustration and more blunt Fe assertions they were making. And yes Fi and Fe (and Ti and Te) all have their flavors.

Cascadeco has a good point regarding these issues being universal. So universal frustration at not being heard-translated into four different languages depending upon the cognitive function being employed. And as usual, if it isnt our particular native tongue, we misunderstand it. lather, rinse, repeat. I dont mean to be obnoxious....but how can you guys doubt these patterns at this point? I suppose because of Ne, patterns are blatant, painfully obvious for me, like slam my head into the wall obvious. But I also fall down stairs and have totaled three cars, so much for Se I suppose.
 

Fidelia

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I agree, EW. I think that is why sometimes Fe users venting will seem like a condemnation of the person, when I don't think Fe generally speaks in those terms. It's trying to effect a certian kind of action, more than pronounce an irrevocable judgement.

I also think an interesting distinction was drawn between respect and trust. I don't trust anyone I don't respect. While I don't trust all people I respect, I can't have trust without respect. Therefore, someone who lies habitually, or treats some people unethically as a matter of course is not someone that I want to get close to or have much to do with, even if they have other elements of their personality that are positive. I've noticed that Fi is bigger on trust and less on respect. In some ways it cuts people more slack and in others it has higher expectations.
 

sculpting

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Negative emotions are burdensome. A burden shared is a burden halved. Often, I just want someone to get pissed along with me, since that lets me know that if it gets worse, I've got an ally in that situation.

But in this situation-recognize that my end point is universal condemnation of the individual under question. Once damned, there is no coming back. So to pass an Fi judgment of that severity is something done after a great deal of thought and investigation. I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally. Damn. That's significant. I must make sure the judgment is correct-because of the consequences of the judgment upon the person in question.

Thus-as Tallulah noted as being frustrating-I will not agree and will actually try and objective evaluate the situation. If it is my ENTP buddy bitching about her boss, I will be chill and just support her-but when you are asking me to morally condemn a mother who you are seeking to help-I cant do that.

I realize this is an interpretation issue, which can be worked around, but it takes time to build those strategies.
 

Esoteric Wench

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I'm not sure I get "loud," being a fairly soft-spoken person, but I can see myself getting more insistent if I feel like instead of hearing what I'm actually trying to say, someone is trying to get me not to be "mean," or insisting on reframing the situation. I'm open to hearing alternative points of view, but not if I feel like the person is not listening to me at all. And I definitely understand being fair and playing the devil's advocate, but if my friend is defending the other party exclusively when they don't even know the other party, and not giving me the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to get frustrated and irritated, yes. Absolutely. I may get frustrated and show it, or I may just shut down, and be tempted to re-evaluate how well we know each other.

As to the last bit, yes, I identify with that. I tend to retreat, especially because Fi-ers don't air things out in the same language I do, and I'm more likely to feel picked on or scolded, and then explode (and I don't want to explode). I can confront my ENFJ friend, we have it out and it blows over in less than 5 minutes, because we process things similarly. It really just depends on the particular person I'm having issues with.

I appreciate this feedback, Tallulah. I feel like I'm brainstorming trying to figure out the different dynamic here and I can't quite pin it down yet... but it's there and maybe I'll stumble upon it.

I know that I've had to really do a lot of soul searching regarding my refusal to disengage when I get the ignore, doorslam, etc. Whether I deserve it or not (and since I'm a perfect person, I know I've never deserved it before. <Insert self-effacing expression here.> :blush:), I guess I feel like ignoring someone or doorslamming them is morally wrong on some level. In other words, the very act of ignoring me violates one of my deeply held Fi values. I feel it largely selfish to ignore a person rather than confront the situation head on. It is a sign of respect and thoughtfulness for another person's well-being to tell them that you're having a problem with them, even if it is sometimes unpleasant to do this.

I've come to understand the Fe ignore sooooo much better in the past six months and now I think I'd respond a little differently. But this is how I responded beforehand. And this is why I might feel free to ignore the ignore.

^^^^^^^^^^
Ignoring the ignore doesn't always fair so well for me. Why do I do this? 'Cause usually I instantly pick up on the ignoring / silent response. But then I choose to bypass it. In fact, there's a part of me that relishes bypassing it. Which maybe isn't me at my best. This is probably driven by my Fi not wanting anything to impinge upon its self-expression.

If I'm completely honest with myself, there is this little 8th grader inside of me that says (while stomping her foot), "Well screw them. Why should I respect their boundaries when they've treated me so disrespectfully that they would ignore my feelings and well-being by ignoring me."

I only bring this up because I think it important to understand what's going on in the head of the person who is ramping up the dialogue in the face of increasing silence. I think Fi and Fe users have differing answers to these questions:

Why does silence not always work? When does it work? Why do Fe users and Fi users choose to ignore a silent response. Or maybe sometimes they don't see it because it's delivered in a manner that they don't understand.

So back to Orobas' situation, it sounds like the mother-in-law's increasing bluntness is causing her stress. So how does one stop this dynamic from happening when you find yourself stuck in this kind of situation. What would you say to the other party in order to re-orient the conversation to a more productive level? Would you take a different tack depending on if the person was an Fi or an Fe user?

I don't have the answers to these questions, but I feel like they are worth asking.
 

Fidelia

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To me it seems like you would ask a Fe user questions that allow them to get stuff off their chest and you to understand better what is going on, but still orient towards a solution.

I wrote a whole bunch about this in the thread SilkRoad started about allowing people to feel what they feel. I think perhaps it may be relevent.
 

Tallulah

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But in this situation-recognize that my end point is universal condemnation of the individual under question. Once damned, there is no coming back. So to pass an Fi judgment of that severity is something done after a great deal of thought and investigation. I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally. Damn. That's significant. I must make sure the judgment is correct-because of the consequences of the judgment upon the person in question.

Thus-as Tallulah noted as being frustrating-I will not agree and will actually try and objective evaluate the situation. If it is my ENTP buddy bitching about her boss, I will be chill and just support her-but when you are asking me to morally condemn a mother who you are seeking to help-I cant do that.

I realize this is an interpretation issue, which can be worked around, but it takes time to build those strategies.

Yeah, this is where things get a little harder to differentiate. A healthy Fe user is not asking you to be an ally without having your own opinions. What we're asking you to do is hear that we're frustrated and validate those feelings, THEN give us some perspective. It's only when you judge us as being mean without trying to understand what could have caused the frustration in the first place, thereby giving us credit for not being heartless bastards, that we get irritated (and sometimes disappointed). It's a fine line, admittedly. We actually DO want your opinion, but we also want to know you are actually hearing us, and are sympathizing with the feeling, rather than judging us for having it. After that, we can work on whether the feeling is valid. See? You can actually use our need to know whether our feelings are valid or not to help us see another perspective. But we have to feel heard and validated first.

Edit: To clarify, when I say sympathize with the feeling, I don't even mean, "appraise the situation like we would," or "feel about the mother like I do." I mean, "remember what it's like to be in a situation like this, where you feel like you're doing a lot to help someone, but you feel like they might be ungrateful," or something like that. Feel what it's like to be in that situation, regardless of whether you approve of her assessment.
 

Esoteric Wench

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I suppose because of Ne, patterns are blatant, painfully obvious for me, like slam my head into the wall obvious. But I also fall down stairs and have totaled three cars, so much for Se I suppose.

:rofl1:

This made me laugh Orobas! Oh my Se using friends can never know how much it sucks that ENFP's have Se as their 8th function... the least accessible of all the mental functions.

If it weren't for my ISTP, I'd never find my keys, and I'd probably run into walls.
 

Esoteric Wench

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To me it seems like you would ask a Fe user questions that allow them to get stuff off their chest and you to understand better what is going on, but still orient towards a solution.

I wrote a whole bunch about this in the thread SilkRoad started about allowing people to feel what they feel. I think perhaps it may be relevent.

Fidelia, I'll check this thread out. Thanks! :smile:
 

onemoretime

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But in this situation-recognize that my end point is universal condemnation of the individual under question. Once damned, there is no coming back. So to pass an Fi judgment of that severity is something done after a great deal of thought and investigation. I cant align my values with you just because you are upset and need an ally. Damn. That's significant. I must make sure the judgment is correct-because of the consequences of the judgment upon the person in question.

Thus-as Tallulah noted as being frustrating-I will not agree and will actually try and objective evaluate the situation. If it is my ENTP buddy bitching about her boss, I will be chill and just support her-but when you are asking me to morally condemn a mother who you are seeking to help-I cant do that.

I realize this is an interpretation issue, which can be worked around, but it takes time to build those strategies.

You have to understand. It's not just a mother who she is seeking to help. It's a mother who she is seeking to help, but is not making any visible effort to show her appreciation of what others have sacrificed for her. Without an apparent willingness to give back, it's hard to determine whether the mother is truly thankful, or merely exploiting their generosity.
 

Poki

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I think Tallahah and esoteric captured what I meant by loud-really more insistent and forceful due to a feeling of frustration. I think proteanmix and Fidelia were actually the ones who told me I seemed oblivious and pointed out the increasing frustration and more blunt Fe assertions they were making. And yes Fi and Fe (and Ti and Te) all have their flavors.

Cascadeco has a good point regarding these issues being universal. So universal frustration at not being heard-translated into four different languages depending upon the cognitive function being employed. And as usual, if it isnt our particular native tongue, we misunderstand it. lather, rinse, repeat. I dont mean to be obnoxious....but how can you guys doubt these patterns at this point? I suppose because of Ne, patterns are blatant, painfully obvious for me, like slam my head into the wall obvious. But I also fall down stairs and have totaled three cars, so much for Se I suppose.

Does that mean you cant see past the patterns?
 

Fidelia

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Yeah, this is where things get a little harder to differentiate. A healthy Fe user is not asking you to be an ally without having your own opinions. What we're asking you to do is hear that we're frustrated and validate those feelings, THEN give us some perspective. It's only when you judge us as being mean without trying to understand what could have caused the frustration in the first place, thereby giving us credit for not being heartless bastards, that we get irritated (and sometimes disappointed). It's a fine line, admittedly. We actually DO want your opinion, but we also want to know you are actually hearing us, and are sympathizing with the feeling, rather than judging us for having it. After that, we can work on whether the feeling is valid. See? You can actually use our need to know whether our feelings are valid or not to help us see another perspective. But we have to feel heard and validated first.

Yes! In fact, I wouldn't want the other person to just assimilate my points of view or they would be of no use to reflect back what I "look" like or offer anything helpful to me either. I'm already really putting myself out there though by expressing something that I'm worried or upset about. I want to see people in a good light. I'm trying to reconcile conflicting emotions to do something better with them so I don't cause harm. I haven't made up my mind that someone is good or bad, so much as trying to figure out how all the pieces of them fit together and then what implications that has for how I should relate to them. Sometimes I'm trying to decide when there are conflicting emotions, how much percentage of weighting each of those emotions should get to see the total picture accurately.

If I am acting uncharacteristically harsh or unreasonable, then I'd be grateful for the other person to realize that this is not what I am normally like and ask enough questions to understand why I am reacting in this way. I need questions that help me determine for myself things like "How long have you felt this way?" "What message do you feel like the other person is sending that is bothering you so much?" "What things have you already tried? How did it work?" What options do you figure you have from your perspective?" "What would you see as the idea outcome of this for both parties involved?" "How do you think you could get there". By asking questions like this, you are still allowing me to be in control of what is going on and you are tacitly validating my feelings and helping to clarify the underlying issues that need to be solved. This is also a time where rather than advice, you can offer some alternative perspectives or motives etc that I may not have considered, so that I am working with more complete information. You can offer another way of looking at it or add information that puts it into a better context. Neither withdrawing, or mutely judging my judgementalness is helpful or kind to me. I need to feel that you can see that I am normally a credible, competent, kind person before I trust that you are going to have perspective that is going to be beneficial to me.
 

cascadeco

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Cascadeco has a good point regarding these issues being universal. So universal frustration at not being heard-translated into four different languages depending upon the cognitive function being employed. And as usual, if it isnt our particular native tongue, we misunderstand it. lather, rinse, repeat. I dont mean to be obnoxious....but how can you guys doubt these patterns at this point? I suppose because of Ne, patterns are blatant, painfully obvious for me, like slam my head into the wall obvious. But I also fall down stairs and have totaled three cars, so much for Se I suppose.

To the bolded - We're talking about different things when it comes to 'patterns'. I'm not doubting patterns in *focus*/topic/concern of conversation. What I was addressing are *behavioral* things - modes of communication/ 'loudness'. Because 'loudness' - the mode of communication and interaction - may have nothing whatsoever to do with cognitive functions. At all. i.e. Everyone get frustrated, everyone can be 'Loud'. So 'Loudness' / bluntness has nothing at all to do with Fe or Fi. Both might be blunt for different *reasons*, or focusing on different things, but I'm sorry, the manner in which frustration is shown can be the same across all different types, or will vary within type. Which is why I gave the example of how myself, as an INFJ, and my friend, as an INFJ, will output/react to frustration in extremely different ways.

So, not to speak for the other 'guys' who are failing to see the patterns at this point, but for myself, I take issue to assumptions made about someones' cognitive function based on their behaviors. And there seems to be a lot of that going on in this thread and others.

When I read your post on the ISTP's 'loudness', which caused you to retreat, it seemed you were bothered by her loudness itself, and attributing her loudness to Fe. This is what I took issue to, becase that sort of behavioral trait I do believe is universal. Now, if you instead are taking issue not so much with her 'loudness', but rather WHAT she is talking about, then it's not the behavior/loudness itself that is bothering you, but rather the content of what she is delivering. And content is a totally different thing.

And this is me getting frustrated. ;)
 

Orangey

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Jun 26, 2008
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6w5
You have to understand. It's not just a mother who she is seeking to help. It's a mother who she is seeking to help, but is not making any visible effort to show her appreciation of what others have sacrificed for her. Without an apparent willingness to give back, it's hard to determine whether the mother is truly thankful, or merely exploiting their generosity.

This has been said time and time again in this thread, but apparently it is irrelevant to "Fi judgments" about the words the ISTP used in her rant.
 
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