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  1. #171
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Think you have confused NeTi with just Ti.
    Nope. If anything, that's a more Ni-laden statement than Ne.

  2. #172
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Perhaps, however, the reason that the ISTP acted passive-aggressively (i.e., didn't specify what she wanted from the ISFP but still acted bitchy about it) was because she didn't want to offend the ISFP? I've seen people go to impractical (and even pathological) lengths to cater to other's feelings (or at least what they believe their feelings might be), especially when they know other people are watching the situation. No one wants to appear to be an asshole, especially when they're supposed to be doing an act of service and compassion to a fellow community member. What if the ISTP was hyper-aware of this, and was afraid, especially given the disposition of the ISFP, that she might look like a jerk if she went around telling the ISFP to do basic things, like one would do with a small child? Most people would think that's offensive and condescending behavior, and the ISTP might have assumed that the ISFP would take it as such. Or perhaps the ISFP DID take it as such in spite of her need to be instructed.

    And then with all the effort the ISTP feels she's gone through to tip-toe around the ISFP's feelings (however truly dysfunctional this might ultimately be, and however wrong she might have gone about it), that might be why she feels resentful that the ISFP is acting hurt? She might feel like she can't win.
    yeah, actually, this is an excellent point. the ISTP (or whatever) may have been feeling sort of trapped herself. she tries to help even though she's ambivalent about it from the start - does it on good faith anyway - then suddenly she realizes that this is more than she really signed up for, and even though she cares and is trying to help guide the family, she's concerned about how the kids are being treated and if the environment is safe, and then there's stuff like the diapers, which is a problem for the whole church. the 1 week notice still gets me, but.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    [that whole post]
    awesome

  3. #173
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    the 1 week notice still gets me, but.
    Yeah, there really is no excuse for that kind of behavior on the part of the ISTP, but I get the feeling that what she said was more out of anger than any real intention. The reason I say this is NOT because I have any particular faith in the ISTP lady, but rather because it's probably going to make her look REAL bad if she goes through with it. This goes doubly if Christian vanity had anything at all to do with her original motivations to generosity.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #174
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    I have diligently read every post in this thread, and I have discovered that my head hurts more with the reading of each subsequent post. Nonetheless, this headache is not a sufficient deterrent to me throwing in my own 10 cents. I found the interesting questions raised by this thread are:

    • When is it OK to complain about another person to a third party?
    • What does the act of complaining say about the complainer?
    • What can we learn about the third party from the complaint?

    The Fi/Te users and Fe/Ti users on this thread seemed to have very different answers to these questions... which is about what I would have expected... 16 pages ago.

    This Fi/Te User's Perspective

    I noticed that many of the Fi/Te users were offended by the ISTP's (the "complainer" in the OP) overall approach. OK, this I understand. I found the ISTP's ranting to be offensive, too. But then again, I'm an Fi/Te user. Perhaps if I listed why I think Fi/Te users reacted in the way that many of them did, this would help shed some light on how Fe/Ti and Fi/Te clashed on this occasion.

    Complainer's Behavior Lacked Congruity with Her Feelings:
    Fi Likes Authenticity and Truthiness

    If my Fi/Te driven opinion is at all representative of other Fi/Te users, I found it DEEPLY offensive that the complainer would act one way around the subject of her complaints and another way in her absence. This incongruity in her behavior felt disingenuous at best and backstabbing and unnecessarily cruel at worst.

    Not All Fi Values are Created Equal:
    What Is the Most Important Value in this Situation?

    It didn't really matter to me whether or not the person being complained about was guilty of all the things of which she had been accused. <- That is a separate question, and for this Fi/Te user was not my first concern. In fact, I was quite bored as I read post after post debating whether or not the subject of the complaints had really done the things of which she was accused. It felt to me like these arguments were missing the most pressing point. What seemed of primary importance to me was that the complainer was morally in the wrong to publicly talk about the object of her complaints to Orobas. Only after this point is agreed upon, then would I begin to sort through the veracity of the complainer's statements.

    Taking Her Word for It (Fe Objective Truth)
    vs. Figuring the Truth Out on My Own (Fi Subjective Truth)
    With a Pinch of Te Logic Thrown In

    Secondly, I found it DEEPLY offensive that the complainer's conclusions were so one-dimensional and that their accuracy was presented as self-evident. There seemed to be an implicit assumption that the listener (in this case Orobas) would automatically agree with and support the complainer. And I do think that it sounded like this sort of blind support was what the complainer was seeking. <- Yuck!

    Even if the complainer needed to vent to a member of her innermost circle (which might include Orobas), there can be no more fundamental way to show respect to another person than to judge them not based on another person's opinion, but based upon my own interactions with that person. This really rubbed my Fi the wrong way.

    Do I know the Truth (with a capital T) about the subject of her complaints? Absolutely not. Did she neglect the children? Was she ungrateful about the help she received? Maybe yes. Maybe no. But, I felt deeply resentful that the complainer would assume that I would just take her word for it. My judgment of right and wrong is a deeply personal experience for me that I take very seriously. Would the complainer have me just take her word for it? The answer is probably yes, but here again we see the differences between Fi/Te and Fe/Ti.

    And, my Te was also bothered by the fact that the conclusions didn't seem to jive with all the facts. There was obviously more going on here than as things were first presented. It seemed to me that the complainer had some sort of agenda that was causing her to emphasize certain facts and overlook others. These "logical fallacies" were quite bothersome to me.

    How Would I Have Preferred The Complainer to Vent to Me?
    My Fi would far have preferred a dialogue with the complainer in which she gave me the facts in an as objective manner as possible. This would have been our starting point of figuring out what was right and wrong together. My Fi would have loved the chance to explore all the subtle moral issues at play. And, my Te would have loved the opportunity to build a solid logical conclusion based on the facts and a complete picture of the situation.

    Fe/Ti User Perspective

    This post is already too long, so let me just say that a lot of the controversy on this thread seems to have to do with Fe/Ti versus Fi/Te differences in deciding what to focus one's attention on and stylistic differences in how to deliver/receive criticism.

    For example, I observed that many of the Fe/Ti users were deeply concerned about whether or not the complaints were representative of the problem at hand. A lot of these posts talked about things like what exactly was child neglect?

    Is either way right or wrong? No. But each approach has different strengths and weaknesses. Remembering this, my take away from this thread has been to choose to see these differences as complementary rather than adversarial. In other words, I'm trying to work past my initial distaste and see the strengths of the differing Fe/Ti approach.

    Orobas, I hope this helps!
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  5. #175
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Complainer's Behavior Lacked Congruity with Her Feelings:
    Fi Likes Authenticity and Truthiness

    If my Fi/Te driven opinion is at all representative of other Fi/Te users, I found it DEEPLY offensive that the complainer would act one way around the subject of her complaints and another way in her absence. This incongruity in her behavior felt disingenuous at best and backstabbing and unnecessarily cruel at worst.
    So you don't believe in maintaining civility around people you dislike?

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Not All Fi Values are Created Equal:
    What Is the Most Important Value in this Situation?

    It didn't really matter to me whether or not the person being complained about was guilty of all the things of which she had been accused. <- That is a separate question, and for this Fi/Te user was not my first concern. In fact, I was quite bored as I read post after post debating whether or not the subject of the complaints had really done the things of which she was accused. What seemed of primary importance to me was that the complainer was morally in the wrong to publicly talk about the object of her complaints to Orobas. Only after this point is agreed upon, then would I begin to sort through the veracity of the complainer's statements.
    So you're saying that your moral judgment of the ISTP lady's words are fundamentally more important than her moral judgments of the ISFP lady's deeds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Taking Her Word for It (Fe Objective Truth)
    vs. Figuring the Truth Out on My Own (Fi Subjective Truth)
    With a Pinch of Te Logic Thrown In

    Secondly, I found it DEEPLY offensive that the complainer's conclusions were so one-dimensional and that their accuracy was presented as self-evident. There seemed to be an implicit assumption that the listener (in this case Orobas) would automatically agree with and support the complainer. And I do think that it sounded like this sort of blind support was what the complainer was seeking. <- Yuck!

    Even if the complainer needed to vent to a member of her innermost circle (which might include Orobas), there can be no more fundamental way to show respect to another person than to judge them not based on another person's opinion, but based upon my own interactions with that person. This really rubbed my Fi the wrong way.

    Do I know the Truth (with a capital T) about the subject of her complaints? Absolutely not. Did she neglect the children? Was she ungrateful about the help she received? Maybe yes. Maybe no. But, I felt deeply resentful that the complainer would assume that I would just take her word for it. My judgment of right and wrong is a deeply personal experience for me that I take very seriously. Would the complainer have me just take her word for it? The answer is probably yes, but here again we see the differences between Fi/Te and Fe/Ti.
    So you're saying that you never lend an ear to a friend when he/she's ranting in a state of distress, if you don't already agree with their conclusions? That you never suspend your own judgment in the service of someone else? As has been mentioned before in this thread, the ISTP likely wouldn't have said anything the way she did if she didn't think she'd have a sympathetic ear in Orobas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    How Would I Have Preferred The Complainer to Vent to Me?
    My Fi would far have preferred a dialogue with the complainer in which she gave me the facts in an as objective manner as possible. This would have been our starting point of figuring out what was right and wrong together. My Fi would have loved the chance to explore all the subtle moral issues at play. And, my Te would have loved the opportunity to build a solid logical conclusion based on the facts and a complete picture of the situation.[/INDENT]
    In other words, you wouldn't have preferred the complainer to vent at all, as venting is the unrestrained (usually forceful) release of opinions and emotions. You'd instead want some sort of objective argument or dialogue, with restrained judgment and emotion. That's not venting.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #176
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    What Orangey said.

    I know some of the above is Fi venting, but multiple Fi users took the ISTP's venting session as "deeply offensive" and "unnecessarily cruel" (third time that word's been used by a different Fi user). If this is an Fe/Fi issue, the ISTP, playing more by Fe rules than Fi rules, obviously didn't mean it to be either of those two things. SHE wasn't trying to be "cruel." So why does she get judged as if she had killed the family's dog in front of them? I really do think it's probably best to vent to someone who speaks your language, so to speak. I'd be furious on top of frustrated if I had an Fi-er telling me how to vent so as to please their Fi/Te. If you don't want me to vent to you, tell me, and I assure you, I will find someone else.
    Something Witty

  7. #177
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    What Orangey said.

    I know some of the above is Fi venting, but multiple Fi users took the ISTP's venting session as "deeply offensive" and "unnecessarily cruel" (third time that word's been used by a different Fi user). If this is an Fe/Fi issue, the ISTP, playing more by Fe rules than Fi rules, obviously didn't mean it to be either of those two things. SHE wasn't trying to be "cruel." So why does she get judged as if she had killed the family's dog in front of them? I really do think it's probably best to vent to someone who speaks your language, so to speak. I'd be furious on top of frustrated if I had an Fi-er telling me how to vent so as to please their Fi/Te. If you don't want me to vent to you, tell me, and I assure you, I will find someone else.
    +1.

    ....I still find it hard to reconcile Fi's "saying negative things about someone (regardless of whether they are true) is unconditionally bad - nauseating, horribly cruel and extremely offensive, to be precise" with all the negative things that Fi users are saying about this woman whom they've never met.
    -end of thread-

  8. #178
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Perspective is being rapidly lost here. EW's post isn't meant to be extrapolated in the direction that Orangey is taking. If you want the ISTP's venting to be taken at face value, then so too must an Fi user's POV upon hearing it. All that means is about 50% of people will hear the ISTP venting as being morally incongruent and somewhat harsh towards a person as opposed to their behaviour. The other 50% will see it as dispensing with negative emotions in order to clarify thoughts, try to sway opinion to a POV, change behaviour or call people to action.

    And we all are aware the ISFP mom is likely no paragon of perfection here - this has already been said many times too. But the thread is about the conversation that took place, not the veracity of the claims against her.

    Let's not be too judgey in this thread ... let's have a conversation. Relax...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #179
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think to Fe-Ti, the veracity of the claims (or lack thereof, depending) is very relevant to the conversation that took place. To determine whether the ISTP was being overly harsh or not, it seems important to know whether the claims were valid.

    I think in Fi-Te terms that perhaps is a separate issue. For me, it is one and the same issue, and that is maybe why there seems to be a disconnect.

  10. #180
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ I agree that we do likely see it as two distinct issues. The problem is that we don't have the benefit of all the information in order to make a judgement. We're extrapolating without sufficient data or verifying data, about both people really. It makes the discussion speculative at best. We're getting stuck in the weeds now.

    I think to Fi / Te, even if the ISFP mom was doing all the things the ISTP said (since the ISTP was speaking in a lot of absolutes and using dramatic prose, it is hard to imagine there's not some exaggeration, and if she really felt the children were being neglected it seems inconceivable that she wouldn't have already contacted children's services), the ISFP mom still deserves to be treated with a core of respect. That's about the best way I can sum it up.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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