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  1. #161
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The issue here is not between Fe/Fi, but rather Ti and Fi. Ti needs to identify patterns existing outside the person's control. Therefore, when talking about the woman, she is being judgmental, but not in the sense that perhaps you understand it. Rather than judging her as a person, she's judging her as an object within the classes "human," "woman," and "mother."
    My Ti does nothing of the sort.

    Unless you're just saying that she's judging behaviours rather than the woman personally, in which case I agree.
    -end of thread-

  2. #162
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    In regards to toxic people, I have been told a bit of advice recently that people allow themselves to be victims. So where is the toxicity, within the toxic person, or within yourself for allowing them to be toxic?

  3. #163
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    If we were all born with some innate ability to become impervious to the harm another person can cause, then no one would reach devastating lows as a result of someone else's criticism/bullying/harsh words/unkindness in the first place. Eleanor Roosevelt said something along the lines of "No one can make us feel inferior without our permission." I think there's truth in it, but a certain resistance needs to be learned first. It's not something people are born knowing, they need to be taught- and then that teaching needs to be practiced over and over (which is usually a process of being reminded by others, ideally parents) before a person actually becomes resistant to 'toxicity'.

    So my answer is: it exists in the toxic person- though I don't think being able to blame them means you shouldn't work on becoming impervious to it.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #164
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    You know, it seems like no matter what position anyone in this thread has taken, the assumption has always been that the ISTP (ISTJ!!!) was failing to take into account the feelings of the ISFP.

    The interpretations so far have included the following: the ISTP was a judgmental bitch that didn't really want to help the ISFP but wanted to maintain the facade of Christian compassion; the ISTP woman was frustrated with the ISFP and her frustration caused her to act passive-aggressively; or the ISTP woman did want to help the ISFP originally but then changed her mind after ungenerously observing the ISFP's habits and behaviors. The one thing all of these have in common is the assumption that the ISTP was thinking and acting completely without regard for what the ISFP might be feeling at the time, and the ISFP was merely reacting to the thoughtless actions of the ISTP.

    Perhaps, however, the reason that the ISTP acted passive-aggressively (i.e., didn't specify what she wanted from the ISFP but still acted bitchy about it) was because she didn't want to offend the ISFP? I've seen people go to impractical (and even pathological) lengths to cater to other's feelings (or at least what they believe their feelings might be), especially when they know other people are watching the situation. No one wants to appear to be an asshole, especially when they're supposed to be doing an act of service and compassion to a fellow community member. What if the ISTP was hyper-aware of this, and was afraid, especially given the disposition of the ISFP, that she might look like a jerk if she went around telling the ISFP to do basic things, like one would do with a small child? Most people would think that's offensive and condescending behavior, and the ISTP might have assumed that the ISFP would take it as such. Or perhaps the ISFP DID take it as such in spite of her need to be instructed.

    And then with all the effort the ISTP feels she's gone through to tip-toe around the ISFP's feelings (however truly dysfunctional this might ultimately be, and however wrong she might have gone about it), that might be why she feels resentful that the ISFP is acting hurt? She might feel like she can't win.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #165
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You know, it seems like no matter what position anyone in this thread has taken, the assumption has always been that the ISTP (ISTJ!!!) was failing to take into account the feelings of the ISFP.

    The interpretations so far have included the following: the ISTP was a judgmental bitch that didn't really want to help the ISFP but wanted to maintain the facade of Christian compassion; the ISTP woman was frustrated with the ISFP and her frustration caused her to act passive-aggressively; or the ISTP woman did want to help the ISFP originally but then changed her mind after observing the ISFP's habits and behaviors. The one thing all of these have in common is the assumption that the ISTP was thinking and acting completely without regard for what the ISFP might be feeling at the time.

    Perhaps, however, the reason that the ISTP acted passive-aggressively (i.e., didn't specify what she wanted from the ISFP but still acted bitchy about it) was because she didn't want to offend the ISFP? I've seen people go to impractical (and even pathological) lengths to cater to other's feelings (or at least what they believe their feelings might be), especially when they know other people are watching the situation. No one wants to appear to be an asshole, especially when they're supposed to be doing an act of service and compassion to a fellow community member. What if the ISTP was hyper-aware of this, and was afraid, especially given the disposition of the ISFP, that she might look like a jerk if she went around telling the ISFP to do basic things, like one would do with a small child? And then with all the effort she's gone through to tip-toe around the ISFP's feelings (however truly dysfunctional this might ultimately be, and however wrong she might have gone about it), that might be why she feels resentful that the ISFP is acting hurt? She might feel like she can't win.
    No one is saying that she doesn't genuinely care. Its very likely that she does. Regardless she is doing something to try and help someone which is certainly to be valued. I also don't believe that anyone thinks she should go to huge lengths to appease the ISFP in every possible way or that she doesn't have the right to be annoyed when the ISFP is difficult. Criticizing the ISTP's behaviour doesn't mean I think her a bad person. In all likelihood she is a good human being who is merely displaying a few flaws among many virtues. Also, I personally consider the ISFPs feelings to be somewhat irrelevant to the matter being discussed - the ISFP can't hear what is being said (and therefore cannot be hurt by it) and we can only speculate as to whether she has picked up on the fact that the ISTP doesn't seem to like her.

    However, the point is the ISTP doesn't appear to have proper justification for most of her complaints, therefore she sounds unreasonably critical. In fact, it seems more like she simply doesn't like the woman and is grasping at straws to think up concrete reasons to demonize her, in order to better draw sympathy from Orobas. I don't expect this is consciously done and it is likely that she is just exaggerating out of frustration, but it is rather mean and judgmental all the same. Within her comments about the ISFP, I do see valid reasons for her to be annoyed (eg. her being messy, not coming to church after all the help given to her etc) or slightly concerned but many of the other problems seem like she has invented them in her head or just plain exaggerated the inconveniences she has 'endured'. Unequivocally calling a mother 'neglectful', is a rather serious accusation to make, and shouldn't be done lightly - especially when all she really means to say is 'I don't like her parenting style'.

    I've often experienced these sorts of conversations and with decent people. I have several family members and close family friends who do the same thing. They are awesome, kind and generous people that I love, and I still think well of them even though they do it - but it does annoy the shit out of me.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #166
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think so, but church environmets are often Fe heavier.
    *shudders* I'm "actively involved" in my church, if you want to call it that. I sing in the church choir and am part of the birdwatching group. I don't really care for a good part of the church's teachings or the congregations general stance on a variety of issues. It doesn't so much seem to be an issue in my church, but my cousins' Baptist church in North Carolina...
    Oddly enough, I liked the pastor of that church for the little bit I met him.

    I think my Fe might be a bit better developed than it used to be, but I'm not going to ramble about that here.

  7. #167
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    No one is saying that she doesn't genuinely care. Its very likely that she does. Regardless she is doing something to try and help someone which is certainly to be valued. I also don't believe that anyone thinks she should go to huge lengths to appease the ISFP in every possible way or that she doesn't have the right to be annoyed when the ISFP is difficult. Criticizing the ISTP's behaviour doesn't mean I think her a bad person. In all likelihood she is a good human being who is merely displaying a few flaws among many virtues. Also, I personally consider the ISFPs feelings to be somewhat irrelevant to the matter being discussed - the ISFP can't hear what is being said (and therefore cannot be hurt by it) and we can only speculate as to whether she has picked up on the fact that the ISTP doesn't seem to like her.
    I am not concerned about whether the ISTP genuinely cared or not, nor am I convinced that her rant in the OP points to any sort of "flaw."

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    However, the point is the ISTP doesn't appear to have proper justification for most of her complaints, therefore she sounds unreasonably critical. In fact, it seems more like she simply doesn't like the woman and is grasping at straws to think up concrete reasons to demonize her, in order to better draw sympathy from Orobas. I don't expect this is consciously done and it is likely that she is just exaggerating out of frustration, but it is rather mean and judgmental all the same. Within her comments about the ISFP, I do see reasons for her to be annoyed (eg. her being messy, not coming to church after all the help given to her etc) but many of the other problems almost seem like she has invented them in her head or just plain exaggerated the inconveniences she has 'endured'. Unequivocally calling a mother 'neglectful', is a rather serious accusation to make, and shouldn't be done lightly - especially when all she really means to say is 'I don't like her parenting style'.
    Right, all of this was covered here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    the ISTP woman did want to help the ISFP originally but then changed her mind after ungenerously observing the ISFP's habits and behaviors.
    I was giving another interpretation. I don't know why, but I just don't find it interesting enough to simply conclude that "she said mean things." Although, it seems like you're trying to suggest that her actions (her rant to Orobas) were as a result of some "flaw," but you have yet to say exactly what it is. What failure of character would result in (what you view as) such an outburst of cruel and predatory words?

    It's exactly this assignment of behavior to a personal flaw that's been at issue during most of this discussion. Some people are trying to say that it was some (apparently non-specific) moral failing of the ISTP's that would cause her to say those things (and yes, we know it doesn't mean she's an overall bad person, or that she never cared in the first place), and some are saying that no, there are circumstantial factors to take into account before we can safely come to that conclusion.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #168
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Well, I'm late to the party, and there's too much for me to know whether all of this has been said or not, but I thought I'd toss my 2 cents into the mix.......

    I really don't think this is clearly a Fe/Fi issue. If the ISTP is indeed ISTP, and based upon the info in the OP and whatever else I happened to read following it, it seems the problem is one of poor Feeling judgment, period.

    Let's remember what Feeling is - a rational reasoning that determines value. People with inferior use of Feeling generally assign value poorly, and it is often because they've allowed their emotions to taint their evaluations. People who use Feeling well, regardless of it being Fe or Fi, do not allow emotions to steer the wheel, but simply use them as signals to be analyzed.

    People with poor Feeling, especially in situations they are right in the middle of, tend to regard insignificant things as much more important than they are and fail to note what is truly significant. In this situation, when I compare what seems to actually be the verifiable details with the descriptive words/phrasing used and accusations made by the ISTP, then I see someone who has painted a distorted picture of the truth because they've failed to measure the significance of the details of the matter properly, in proportion to the context and to each other.

    The most significant points are brushed over, barely acknowledged, and degraded to a lesser importance than smaller points as they don't back the emotions of the ISTP. The ISTP feels (as in emotionally) a certain way, and that is dictating her Feeling-judgment. This is an extremely biased and unfair way to evaluate. It results in a person picking & choosing facts to emphasis or de-emphasis according to what suits their agenda, which is being run by emotion. This is what I see the ISTP doing in the OP - blowing certain things out of proportion & ignoring major positive developments within the family to justify her complaining & negative (emotional) feelings towards them.

    Many of the negative comments are value judgments made without any clear facts to back them up, and sometimes in direct contradiction of other statements. Over and over the ISFP is called "filthy", but then there is a brief admission that she has improved in her cleanliness once given some instruction. That is then glossed over with an unfounded remark that it will not last....

    ENFP-what I said: Um, yeah I remember you mentioning she did that back when she first moved in. Once you gave her a list of what needed to be done has she been better about cleaning?

    ISTP: Well, yes, I guess, but it is only a matter of time before she slacks and let’s everything get messy again.
    Significant points about the ISFP mom that have been conveniently ignored or downgraded by both the ISTP (& many in this thread):
    1. Whenever the ISFP has been given direct advice or offered help directly, she has taken it & made the necessary changes. A neglectful, selfish, ungracious person does not act that way.
    2. She has humbled herself to a humiliating state of accepting charity from people who resent her & her children, and yet, she has still put the welfare of her family over her pride in all these situations (except canceling the doctor's appointments).
    3. The husband was responsive to the suggestions made by the INTJ. Any person may be defensive at first; that is a natural reaction. Real ingratitude is ignoring it all together. Again, the point seems brushed over that he has taken some of this advice to heart, as demonstrated by his actions.

    The parents actually were fairly responsive to the INTJ-he talked quite a bit to the husband about financial responsibility and being responsible for taking care of a wife and his children. He said the response was defensive but it seemed to sink in some.
    Are these the actions & attitudes of people who do not care, who are ungrateful, and/or who neglect their children?

    After witnessing these changes, to then accuse (albeit, indirectly) the family of those "crimes" is distorted. The evidence shows otherwise, and it is nearly slanderous to imply those things. It is unfair to not recognize these improvements at their proper value, which is quite significant. These are all important indicators that the family is on the right track. To expect 100% perfection, immediate change overnight, etc, is unfair. Instead, they need to be gauged within the big picture, which shows more improvements than mere stagnation or even backsliding.

    The accusations left are all questionable, as they have no solid evidence and mostly amount to speculation... The kids don't talk yet - or do they? The kids don't eat solid meals yet - or do they? We only know they don't do these things around the ISTP. Some of the accusations are too subjective in nature to take at face value - the ISTP thinks the kids run around like dogs, well, some people think its natural and acceptable for kids to be rambunctious as toddlers. Others expect children to be quiet and inconspicuous. Whose standards are being used? Is either morally incorrect or grounds for implying a parent does not care about her own children?

    The problem with the ISTP's judgments is poor use of Feeling in general, not Fe vs. Fi, IMO.
    Last edited by OrangeAppled; 02-04-2011 at 04:29 AM. Reason: typos
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  9. #169
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Let's remember what Feeling is - a rational reasoning that determines value. People with inferior use of Feeling generally assign value poorly, and it is often because they've allowed their emotions to taint their evaluations. People who use Feeling well, regardless of it being Fe or Fi, do not allow emotions to steer the wheel, but simply use them as signals to be analyzed.
    Can I borrow this? This is a really good summation of what Feeling is and isn't!
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #170
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    My Ti does nothing of the sort.

    Unless you're just saying that she's judging behaviours rather than the woman personally, in which case I agree.
    Everyone experiences it differently.

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