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  1. #151
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    On the topic of rants:
    These appears to be fluctuating, works in progress where a variety of perspectives, questions, comments and interim judgments are being tried out.

    Fi rants typically and trying to understand why one would hurt another, will sound self centric with "I" involved, will involve words like mean, hurtful, cruel, and other Fi-ish judgments.

    Te rants will typically be questioning of the competency or ability of another to resolve issues-thus may include others being stupid or useless.

    Ti rants seem to be questioning the lack of logical consistency or another and trying to find motives that explain why someone would do the irrational

    Fe rants seem to be seeking explanations for lack of adherence to acceptable social mores.

    To any other party who doesnt speak our judgment language, there is a risk of hearing these rants come across very negatively it seems. Please feel free to edit/comment on these thoughts or expand upon them as you understand them.


    Now I have to go deal with frozen pipes.
    With respect to Fe, I have no idea what you mean by ranting about the lack of adherence to social mores. I think it's important to point out that 'adherence to social mores' has more of a direct tie to SFJ's (Si in conjunction with Fe, as the Si leads to more need to go towards the past and what is familiar and 'acceptable'/the 'norm' from a societal standpoint). Both SFJ's and NFJ's are other-focused (often more concerned with how the other is doing and impacts on the other vs. staying true to self, as our concept of self is different from that of an Fi-er), but NFJ's don't have a rulebook based on social mores/norms. NFJ's are more inclined to adjust to the unique needs of the other person, and the unique situation at hand, and their 'rulebook' is going to be more unique and based on their own Ni-based data. NFJ's are aware of the social norms, and might play along in a public setting, but when it comes to 1:1 interaction and situations such as described in the OP, they're really not concerned with there being some specific code/behavior/social more that must be followed. It's more general and custom-tailored to the individual, with of course an end-goal/*application* always driving things... less specific and rigid in how it is applied.

    What I very well might rant about is people being oblivious to or not even factoring in other peoples' needs/personalities - so ranting about people who have a lack of interpersonal awareness of how their own actions impact other people - or in extreme cases, people who simply don't care how their own self/behaviors impact others.

    Edit: Now, tying what I just said to the OP and what the 'istp' was saying, the bulk of her venting was tied to how the isfp's actions and behaviors were impacting not only the lives of the children (others) but also the lives/situation of the church and others. Focus obviously wasn't on how the isfp was doing as a person, emotionally, and her background and issues and feelings and what she's going through, but how all of her choices are impacting everyone else - not accounting for or knowing what other peoples' needs might be, but rather going with what works for her and how she does things. Although, as a result of how the isfp wasn't accounting for others, in the mind of the istp, the isfp therefore got lowered in her estimation and was therefore judged negatively as a result.

    I also relate very much to the Te slant of lack of competency/ability to follow through.

    Relate to Ti too.
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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hi guys,

    Didnt have time to read the most recent comments, my apologies. But I did note the banter above about Toxic. My MIL...well she is a bit like my ex husband. and like the other ISTPs I have known in real life. They are exceptionally practical, pragmatic, problem focused, but not always great at long term logistical planning and I think it can fairly be said they aren't exactly known for sensitivity.

    Having said that they can have very sweet caring Fe, it is real and sincere and they do seek to help others. It contrasts very sharply to protean's Fe which is extremely nuanced, refined, resolved, but they do feel very deeply. The Fe judgments appear childlike to be honest, but well meant. In this situation-in that particular convo, it did feel very toxic-it hurt me-fluctating frustrated Ti hitting flutuating frustrating Fi as Satine noted-however in general she is not a toxic person. I suspect she is emotionally exhausted at this point. In some ways it is almost an unfair expectation to place an ISTP in this sort of position as I would not anticipate she has huge reserves of empathic endurance.

    A funny ISTP MIL story:

    So one day we were getting ready to go to church. My older enfp son and I were out front and we saw a little snail on the ground crawling along. I bent down and I started explaining how the snail uses it's tail as a tongue and mouth and eats the stuff on the ground. We talked about the snail slime being lubricant to help the snail glide along and how the internal organs of the snail are inside the shell and protected. MIL comes out and asks what we are doing. I start telling her...

    *CRUNCH*

    goes the black high heel. "Tina the snails eat all the plants in my garden. We
    dont like snails." I am frozen in a state of awe-horror at the squished snail and I look over at the 11 yo ENFP to see if he goes with horror-sadness or yucky-squished snail-boy-delight. We sort of looked like mirrors at this point-eyes wide in shock but sort of grinning like crazy people. Then we both snickered due to a complete and total cognitive disconnect..

    Yeah sounds terrible, but I am laughing as I write this. We now affectionately call her "snail crusher". I suppose if you choose to hang out with folks who are drastically different from you, well you better be willing to roll with and adapt to those differences. The OP highlighted an aspect I hadnt really encountered before, thus you guys helped me develop a new interpretive tool kit of sorts, much appreciated.

    As for the family, that wasnt the aim of the thread and I was hesitant to commit to action. Understand once I commit to helping someone, I must honor my words. If I say I will help, but dont or only help partially, then it is a total failing of honor and integrity on my part. Also realize that to help, I will/must open my heart and really care for this family-It is not simply a commitment of action but a commitment of an emotional bond. This opens me up to being hurt because action and caring are the same thing.

    For future reference-
    Commentary related to the abstract analysis of the topic, please continue in this thread.

    For problem solving related to the family, offers or suggestions, please place those in my Blog-Residual Dipolar Couplings in the NF blog place. The family lives on the outskirts of Dallas, thus suggestions of resources near there would be of value. We will be helping the family move next week and I have asked DIL to allow me to help MIL and remove some of the burden as she seems emotionally exhausted.



    On the topic of rants:
    These appears to be fluctuating, works in progress where a variety of perspectives, questions, comments and interim judgments are being tried out.

    Fi rants typically and trying to understand why one would hurt another, will sound self centric with "I" involved, will involve words like mean, hurtful, cruel, and other Fi-ish judgments.

    Te rants will typically be questioning of the competency or ability of another to resolve issues-thus may include others being stupid or useless.

    Ti rants seem to be questioning the lack of logical consistency or another and trying to find motives that explain why someone would do the irrational

    Fe rants seem to be seeking explanations for lack of adherence to acceptable social mores.

    To any other party who doesnt speak our judgment language, there is a risk of hearing these rants come across very negatively it seems. Please feel free to edit/comment on these thoughts or expand upon them as you understand them.


    Now I have to go deal with frozen pipes.
    I know with me personally I am 100% aware of my inferior ability of Fe so I avoid as much as possible IRL. I may give my opinion or what I think, but I am in no way forceful with either Ti or Fe when it comes to other people unless I have to to be pragmatic. But the second I realize it doesnt work I back down as it was an attempt to find what works. I am extremely aware of being pragmatic and I am extremely pragmatic, but I have a different feel to pragmatic then most of the ISTPs you know. Bitching, nagging, etc. is not pragmatic unless it actually accomplishes something. I have a more passive method of being pragmatic then say Protean and if I am not able to do things in this passive manner I accept my limitations and just do what I can. Being pragmatic is a way of life which means that everything you do is based around what works and a constant adjusment in every single situation.

    Pragmatism is a philosophical movement that includes those who claim that an ideology or proposition can be said to be true if and only if it works satisfactorily, that the meaning of a proposition is to be found in the practical consequences of accepting it, and that impractical ideas are to be rejected.
    Now you have a Ti pragmatic and a Fi pragmatic that can revolve around this definition. This is a constant shifting of this ideology of pragmatism. Te/Fe is more of a goal driven/focused pragmatism. Your MIL sounds like she just wants to nag so someone else takes care of things. Whether it be the ISFP or an outside party. If she were to nag like this to Protean, Protean would do something about it as will Peacebaby. I believe what PeaceBaby and Protean have in common fall into one of the Socionics Quadras(ENFJ/ISTJ/ESTP/INFP). Its a group of people who can actually accomplish things with there normal mode of doing things. Your MIL would fit perfect in this group of people of PeaceBaby and Protean.

    My ISTJ uncle will start harping on stuff to try to get someone riled up so they do something about it. He attempts to do this to me and fails miserably because I dont really care. My lack of using Fi like an Fi user would. He will focus on social mores which I am not really huge on either which will rile up a strong Dom Fe user as it did Protean. A strong Fe user like Protean would take a much stronger stance and put in a whole lot more effort then I would in these situations. But personally I will always chip in to help physically/monetarily because those things dont take any effort on my part. Physical is fun and I honestly dont care that much about money as long as I am enjoying myself in my current situation.

    To me its not really Fe/Fi gone bad, but when peoples natural way of doing things dont align with another persons. Protean drive and PeaceBabies enjoyment of falling back into Ne ideas and ability to use Te with help from Protean as a team is extremely functional, and a person who bitches in the manner your MIL does fits into this well. Oro, you are simple the messenger here and actually accomplishing something despite what you focus is. This is how the world revolves and how everyone uses everyone and how things actually get done.

    Just my 2 cents and I know I bounced all over the place in my thoughts.

    Sometimes people focus to much on how people go about accomplishing things and not whether it is actually pragmatic or not. For me when I hit pragmatic I step back and look at the outcome of a situation. The way it was handled could be better, but I did the best I could with what I had. Its a constant comparison and adaptation of what works.

  3. #153
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ poki, this is a delightful post, actually, and insightful.

    When I was reading the OP, putting myself in O's shoes, the question kept coming to my mind as the listener - "Well, what do you want me to do about it?" When I hear this kind of venting, yes, I think about the lack of consistency (between words and actions) and find it disturbing, but I also think about what the other person is trying to evoke in me as a response. How they are trying to get me involved, "suck me in" as it were.

    In my "real life" people know I have a history as a doer, and also likely know I have a hard time saying no to appeals from the heart, so yes, I do know how I get conscripted into certain tasks and projects!

    Sometimes I get excited to help, honestly sometimes I do resent it, especially if the person in question has a habit of just complaining and not solving their problems independently, or trying to evade the actual work itself.

    This is how the world revolves and how everyone uses everyone and how things actually get done.
    Indeed.
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    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You're offended just because she believed something negative about the other person? The OP seemed offended mostly by the feeling that the ISTP looked down on the other person as a human being, and not so much the fact that she criticized her, but you seem offended that she said ANYTHING negative about another person, regardless of whether it might have been true. That's a little extreme, don't you think?

    This rant about "negative toxic" things is not helping the OP, or anyone else.

    Anyway, I'm not saying that the sentiments couldn't be viewed as negative and toxic (they could), but I don't think that's the only way to view them. It's not a black and white issue.

    I believe that most of the disagreement on this issue stems from different ways of looking at the situation, and different standards of behavior that people hold others up to. It isn't from negative intention or malice on the part of any party.
    I'm not at all offended. I don't have a strong feeling one way or another about this topic. I saw a situation where it appeared skylights was being bullied by another member in a very covert manner. Coincidentally that behavior and the type (ISTP) lined up with the original post (in my opinion). That triggered my memory of something an ISTP told me about a realization he had of himself a couple of weeks ago about being toxic and he sent me links to different resources; including the article I posted. That's the second ISTP to mention the word in conversation.

    Toxic is a word I had never heard used to describe people before until a few months ago. It's like the negative thinking has such a strong hold over these types of people, that it puts them in these weird circular thinking patters where they're fretting. I've never seen anything like it. That was the first time I had explored the subject of what 'toxic' people look like and how their behavior is not always apparent to their victims (or even to themselves).

    Yesterday, for the first time I saw a pattern of this behavior in SP's that I had never noticed before. I was trolled by an ISTP in an SP thread, which I love ISTP's. This ISTP seemed hellbent on making sure I (one of the few members left that still loves istp's), no longer did. It is my opinion, based on the research I did, that the original post illustrates what a toxic person looks like. Now whether that woman behaves that way all of the time, I don't know.

  5. #155
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You're offended just because she believed something negative about the other person? The OP seemed offended mostly by the feeling that the ISTP looked down on the other person as a human being, and not so much the fact that she criticized her, but you seem offended that she said ANYTHING negative about another person, regardless of whether it might have been true. That's a little extreme, don't you think?

    This rant about "negative toxic" things is not helping the OP, or anyone else.

    Anyway, I'm not saying that the sentiments couldn't be viewed as negative and toxic (they could), but I don't think that's the only way to view them. It's not a black and white issue.
    Agreed.
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  6. #156
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I saw a situation where it appeared skylights was being bullied by another member in a very covert manner.
    I (one of the few members left that still loves istp's),
    lol?

    -end of thread-

  7. #157
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    incidentally, i thought there was negative intent too, but i was left a very nice message letting me know that there wasn't

    this happens to me and my INTP brother too sometimes, so i understand. our communication styles are very different and we can misread one another.

    but thank you NG, because i appreciate you saying something.


    theorizing: i think that some TPs (especially IxTPs) could potentially come off as toxic even when very much not, because of the way they tend to vent and/or argue, which is with logical Ti first and latent, unsteady Fe. Fe can create distance and project disdain. Ti tends to criticize, but without high F, so it can seem like there is criticism and disdain without support. they are not always the most socially tactful people either (no offense TPs, neither am i).

    fwiw, i don't really think oro's MIL is toxic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas
    We now affectionately call her "snail crusher".

  8. #158
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    The issue here is not between Fe/Fi, but rather Ti and Fi. Ti needs to identify patterns existing outside the person's control. Therefore, when talking about the woman, she is being judgmental, but not in the sense that perhaps you understand it. Rather than judging her as a person, she's judging her as an object within the classes "human," "woman," and "mother." The Fe only comes out in the concern for the children, as it needs to impose security and unity upon a population. Meanwhile, your Fi, which needs to "grok" (for lack of a better word) the things in the outside world that lead either to unity and security, or discord and strife, reacts strongly, because it recognizes the demeaning and judgmental statements as terribly divisive and threatening. At that point, your Te, which needs to impose some external predictability on the unsettled situation, leads you to keep quiet, lest the whole thing get out of control.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The issue here is not between Fe/Fi, but rather Ti and Fi. Ti needs to identify patterns existing outside the person's control. Therefore, when talking about the woman, she is being judgmental, but not in the sense that perhaps you understand it. Rather than judging her as a person, she's judging her as an object within the classes "human," "woman," and "mother." The Fe only comes out in the concern for the children, as it needs to impose security and unity upon a population. Meanwhile, your Fi, which needs to "grok" (for lack of a better word) the things in the outside world that lead either to unity and security, or discord and strife, reacts strongly, because it recognizes the demeaning and judgmental statements as terribly divisive and threatening. At that point, your Te, which needs to impose some external predictability on the unsettled situation, leads you to keep quiet, lest the whole thing get out of control.
    Think you have confused NeTi with just Ti.

  10. #160
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I (one of the few members left that still loves istp's).


    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    It is my opinion, based on the research I did, that the original post illustrates what a toxic person looks like. Now whether that woman behaves that way all of the time, I don't know.
    Wouldn't you need to observe a consistent pattern of "toxic" behavior over time in order to say that someone was a toxic person?
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