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  1. #141
    A window to the soul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This thread has really provided little to no concrete information about the situation.
    <removed>....Stop putting words in her mouth and skewing up all things good & lovely.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I'm not foolish enough to attempt to talk
    Reality check... And yet ya did, didn't ya cowboy cowgirl?
    Last edited by A window to the soul; 02-06-2011 at 06:28 PM.

  2. #142
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I don't think we have enough information to pronounce the ISTP (or J) toxic. Orobas already said she's fond of the woman in general. She's not trying to sap O's energy; she appears to be venting and O read it as negativity or contempt for the ISFP, which we've established to be in question, due to the Fe/Fi misread. I've been around lots of toxic people, and this ain't it, at least not from the description provided here.
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  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I don't think we have enough information to pronounce the ISTP (or J) toxic.
    I present you with Exhibit A:

    O's words in blue indicate severe distress from having to listen to the negative toxic bullshit banter. Classic toxic ISTP woman's words in red below.

    BTW, there are a few toxic people that I'm fond of on this website. They're funny when they're ranting at themselves. They also have their rare charming moments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Convo between 55 yo ISTP and 34 yo ENFP. The ISTP and her INTJ husband run a small church and are my ex in-laws/beloved parental figures.

    Background: A young couple with three small children was about to be evicted from their home. The husband had lost his job, they had no car and they electricity and gas had been turned off. Both were raised in foster care and are about 20. The wife shared the story with a church member who then spoke with the ISTP/INTJ and the decision was made to allow the couple and the children to live in rooms at the church adjacent to the sanctuary. The couple appears the be SFPs, with the wife likely an ISFP. They do need a great deal of guidance-they need someone to teach them financial planning and how to be independent. They could use guidance on other aspects of life as well.....

    The convo with the ISTP that made me want to dig my own eyes out as I was trapped in a car with her on the drive to church:


    ISTP: Her children are malnourished and run around like dogs.

    ENFP in my head: Did you just call her children dogs? Really? She loves them and holds the baby all the time and breastfeeds it and the older kids are typical little rowdy toddler boys. Malnourished??? With three small kids, of course it makes sense to let the older two play while she cares for the baby.

    ENFP-what I said: Ah, did their pediatrician say they are malnourished?


    ISTP: Well all she does is feed them milk all day long and they wont eat meals. I have tried to feed them meals and they just wont eat them. She also hasn’t toilet trained any of them, but I don’t want her doing it at the church as it will ruin the carpet.

    ENFP in my head: So are you like hovering over them trying to get them to eat? How many times did you do this, cause that would bother me? Milk is actually quite nutricious, and the kids seem very healthy. Also, her kids are under three-perhaps you forgot your grandsons were not potty trained until 3…

    ENFP-what I said: Um, well milk is okay, I guess. Do they have cavaties or signs of deficiencies?

    ISTP: The kids are sick all of the time because she is filthy and her children are filthy. They wear diapers all day long and she doesn’t dress them in clothes at all or even bother to clean. She was using the paper plates and napkins in the kitchen and left dirty dishes in the sink. The diaper bin was full and the whole church smelled bad.

    ENFP-what I said: Um, yeah I remember you mentioning she did that back when she first moved in. Once you gave her a list of what needed to be done has she been better about cleaning?

    ISTP: Well, yes, I guess, but it is only a matter of time before she slacks and let’s everything get messy again.

    ENFP-in my head: She treats the area given as her personal living area. Why would you allow her to live there, then assume you could mandate in her personal living space, how she dresses herself or her children. Did you tell her certain kitchen items were off limits? Did you tell her that she needed to pick up the area? Once you gave her a list of things to do, she has been doing it, but that doesn’t change your complaint….why are you complaining about something she isn’t doing anymore?


    ENFP-what I said: Well, all the kids have been pretty sick this year. The toddler and my boyfriend keep getting sick-a lot of colds and sore throats. That may be why her kids have been sick-plus they likely give each other bugs. Did you give her specific guidance on cleaning the area?

    ISTP: Well it should be obvious! (God love presumptuous Fe)

    ENFP-what I said: Um, well sometimes it can be helpful to be pretty direct and list things because different folks have different ideas of the way things are supposed to be. Especially with a foster care upbringing, it may be valuable to give clear direction about what you need.

    ISTP: well she says she is a little slow and her kids, well, they don’t even talk yet. They just stare at you when you talk to them. All she does is hold the baby, so I am not surprised.

    ENFP-in my head: Don’t you recall that your grandson was 2 and a half and barely talking? Don’t you notice that this grandson is 3 and half and wont speak to strangers? Whay do you treat a delay in speech as a failing on her part? Why haven’t you encouraged her to take the kid to a professional?

    ENFP-what I said: well she seemed very introverted the time I meet her-(likely an ISFP)-perhaps the children are introverted or just shy around strangers. Have you considered helping her contact ECI to get the children screened if you think there is a reason for delayed speech.

    ISTP: Well, then they would just take her kids away for being so filthy and being in diapers all the time. And an introverted person wouldn’t have gone around begging for help on main street to a stranger would they?

    ENFP-what I said: She was begging for a place to live?

    ISTP: Well no, but she just started talking to the other lady from our church and telling her a Sob story about her life, so what else could we do?

    ENFP-what I said: Did she actually ask for money or help or a place to live? Did she seek anything from you?

    ISTP: well, no but god spoke to us, so we had to offer her help.

    ENFP-in my head: Fucking faceplant. Let me get this right….the women shares her story-likely because she felt like she was with someone who might be able to give her reflective feedback or maybe just listen…this is how Fi works. .instead you guys took it as an Fe call to action. She never asked you for help, yet you made her an offer of help. Once she (poor dumb little lamb) accepted your offer of help, you moved her into your church and began a daily barrage of all the things she is doing wrong as a mother, but never directly, only in this oblique passive aggressive manner. Note you never talk about the father but instead harp on this women. Instead of giving her direct feedback and guildlines, you look down upon her and insult her as being a horrible person daily and whisper behind her back but then smile nicely when you actually speak to her face.

    ISTP: Anyways if she cared about her kids, she wouldn’t have cancelled her doctor’s appointments.

    ENFP-what I said-She cancelled her dr’s appts? Why?


    ISTP: well I don’t know, she just texted us and said she didn’t need any more rides, that she had canceled her doctor’s appointments. It makes our life so much easier as it really was difficult to have to change our schedule to give her a ride.

    ENFP-in my head: Ah, I get this. You made her feel like shit everytime she asked for a ride, emo guilt tripped her, until she executed a shitty Te boundary. She was tired of your emo guilt trips so she found a way not to have to ask you for anything. A stupid move on her part, but I GET it.

    ENFP-what I said: Perhaps she felt she was burdening you, and so tried to find a way not to ask so much of you by canceling the appointments. I can see myself doing that.

    ISTP: Well if she really cared, she would be living there and would do a better job cleaning up.

    ENFP-in my head-Didn’t we already talk about how she is doing a better job cleaning? Yet you keep mentioning this….

    ENFP-What I said-Have you given them guidance on when they need to have a place of their own?

    ISTP: well you’d think they would have done that by now. It’s obvious (god love presumptuous Fe)that they cant stay there.

    ENFP: did you tell them when they need to leave?


    ISTP: well finally last week I had to tell them directly that they needed to be out by the first.
    ENFP-in my head-you gave them 1 week to find a new place?????? WTF????

    ISTP: yeah they don’t even come into the church service anymore. No effort at all. They just sleep in until ten or so on Saturdays and Sundays watching television.

    ENFP-in my head: really? I wonder why they don’t seek your idea of jesus anymore? So far you have done a really nice job exemplifying why I detest seeking help from others as so often it comes with these nasty judgments and pity combined with condemnation. So much for Christian giving if it isn’t in the spirit of giving but rather just meanness. And on Saturdays? What business is it of yours what time they sleep in till???

    As we arrived at church the ISTP did the grossest thing. She takes my arm, pulls me close to her side and says “Well somebody said we may have hurt her feelings, given she cancelled her dr’s appts, but I think if her feelings were hurt, she would have showed it by moving out by now.” Then she snickered. I wanted to throw up. I had become part of the “in-crowd”

    ISTP: Well even though they are moving out, I will still have to stop by their house because she obviously (god love presumptuous Fe) doesn’t know how to parent her children.

    ENFP-in my head: YOU DETEST THIS WOMEN. YOU LOOK DOWN UPON HER WITH DISGUST. YOU TREAT HER BADLY AND CALL HER CHILDREN DOGS. WHY, THEN, DO YOU INSIST ON HELPING SOMEONE YOU FIND SO BENEATH YOU??????? IF YOU FIND HER SO FOUL, WHY NOT JUST LEAVE HER ALONE?

    ENFP-what I said: Oh, that’s nice.
    Last edited by A window to the soul; 02-06-2011 at 06:26 PM.

  4. #144
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Orangey, I agree there is are certain unspoken obligations that the homeless family have to the church and the volunteers, but its really hard if you constantly have to reiterate your gratitude (either directly or indirectly through actions). I have a cousin in another city that I have stayed with so I could do some errands. She would always claim she's glad to have me (and would encourage me to come) but her behaviour made me feel like I had to constantly thank her for every little thing she did - eg. reminding me that I was lucky to stay with her etc. While I was grateful for the free bed and breakfast in the morning etc, I began to really resent the expectation of constant gratitude - I see this as being an ungracious host. After 2 such trips I have stopped staying with her, even though it was only a minor issue in the scheme of things, I'd rather pay for a bed in a hostel than have to endure it.

    Just because this family is desperate and had no other real options, doesn't give people the right to exploit their desperation and demand whatever they feel like from them; they must remember to be a gracious host. Note: I'm not saying the church have necessarily been a bad host - I'm just saying that by offering to help, they also have obligations to fulfill. To quote another Jewish saying, the Talmud says: "If you save a life you must take responsibility for it". Offering help to someone to make yourself feel better then cutting them loose without giving them a real chance to get on their feet is pretty bad behaviour too (if this was the case).
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  5. #145
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Not enough info? Well okay, I present you with Exhibit A:

    O's words in blue indicate severe distress from having to listen to the negative toxic bullshit banter. Classic toxic ISTP woman's words in red below.

    BTW, there are a few toxic people that I'm fond of on this website. They're funny when they're ranting at themselves. They also have their rare charming moments.
    I think we just differ on what constitutes toxic. All of that, even the red parts, reads as frustrated venting to me. It offended Orobas' Fi sensibilities, and it seems to be offending yours now. My Fe doesn't see it as toxic at all. I can handle a good bit of Fe/Ti ranting before I start to feel drained. People I've considered toxic and had to cut out of my life (after a long period of trying to understand them) are people who a) come seeking my advice for the same problems over and over and over, but never end up making any changes because they just like the attention, b) are so insecure that they feel the need to try and bring me down in subtle or overt ways, or c) are people who I like okay, but who are easily set off, causing me to feel like I'm walking on eggshells around them, trying not to upset them or anger them.

    I don't think it's healthy to write people off as toxic when they likely just have a different communication style, though. If that were the case, I'd write off every Fi-dom friend every time they said something in the heat of anger as toxic, when really, they just communicate their frustration differently, and at different speeds/times than I do.
    Something Witty

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    <<vocabulary word removed>> Stop putting words in her mouth and skewing up all things good & lovely.
    I know you've found a new and fun vocabulary word and everything, and I'm sure you're real excited, but that doesn't mean that you should use it any old time you feel. Branch out, my friend. Branch out.

    <<pejorative removed>>

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Reality check... And yet ya did, didn't ya cowboy?
    You're a real wit, aren't ya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Orangey, I agree there is are certain unspoken obligations that the homeless family have to the church and the volunteers, but its really hard if you constantly have to reiterate your gratitude (either directly or indirectly through actions). I have a cousin in another city that I have stayed with so I could do some errands. She would always claim she's glad to have me (and would encourage me to come) but her behaviour made me feel like I had to constantly thank her for every little thing she did - eg. reminding me that I was lucky to stay with her etc. While I was grateful for the free bed and breakfast in the morning etc, I began to really resent the expectation of constant gratitude - I see this as being an ungracious host. After 2 such trips I have stopped staying with her, even though it was only a minor issue in the scheme of things, I'd rather pay for a bed in a hostel than have to endure it.

    Just because this family is desperate and had no other real options, doesn't give people the right to exploit their desperation and demand whatever they feel like from them; they must remember to be a gracious host. Note: I'm not saying the church have necessarily been a bad host - I'm just saying that by offering to help, they also have obligations to fulfill. To quote another Jewish saying, the Talmud says: "If you save a life you must take responsibility for it". Offering help to someone to make yourself feel better then cutting them loose without giving them a real chance to get on their feet is pretty bad behaviour too (if this was the case).
    I agree, and I never said that beneficiaries never have the right to feel resentful towards their benefactors. I was merely stating that, given the info we've been provided in this thread, I think it would be utterly imprudent and irresponsible for this particular ISFP woman to discard the material benefits of the situation to herself and (more importantly) her children because she's feeling resentful. Some things in this world are more important than our individual selves and how we feel.
    Last edited by Bellflower; 02-03-2011 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Knock it off.
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  7. #147
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    O, you make the most head-spinning threads

    Question...I was intrigued by the Fi/Ti rant.

    Could it be that Fi cannot fathom the emotional inconsistency displayed when reaching out to people (why are you helping someone who you're clearly showing contempt for, in a way that will only push them further into that emotional tar pit, aka the self-esteem issue), while Ti cannot fathom the logical inconsistency displayed when offered assistance (why are you not responding to me when you get everything you need to fix all the systematic flaws which landed you here in the first place??)

    I think it hurts FeTi users to see that someone has all the material and logistical shit they need to fix their situation and *still* somehow make a mess of it, while it hurts Fi to see that their acts of kindness are incongruent with the frustration they're displaying at this person (even worse when you *are* that person as you feel like you're on borrowed time and their frustration is incredibly hard to shut out making you all stressed and lose your confidence even more), as well as the blindness they display to making the emotional mess inside an Fi-user's head even worse.

    In other words:

    FiTe users need to have emotional consistency *before* they can fix things externally. That means that the ISFP needs to feel like she *can* do this, needs to sort out what doesn't *feel* right inside (self-esteem damaged, avoidance issues accompanying that, she basically needs her confidence build up with small tasks bit by bit, showing her that she *can* succeed in life and she needs that emotional guidance first and foremost as things start there for her), BEFORE she can actually fix all the logical flaws which make her perhaps not the best mother around. Unfortunately, for the kids, it needs to be the other one first, but fixing that is impossible unless you fix the mom (to be very blunt here), which is the very frustrating thing, as well as probably hard to understand for TiFe users who probably hurt at the sight of logical inconsistency and ache to fix that instantly.

    It also explains the argument here. You wonder how you can possibly feel one way about a person and then act another, and then hold what seems like resentment towards the person who didn't ask a thing, as it's not exactly fair in your mind nor consistent. While Fe-users are wondering why on earth no one is seeing the logical inconsistency causing the situation and doing something about it already! How they feel about the person takes a back seat, in the face of a goal to be reached and is just a byproduct as such, whereas to us its the crux to understanding what this person needs emotionally to stand strong in life and to permanently resolve the situation they're in. That however, can make it drag on forever and isn't always equally practical nor realistic.

    However, when Fe-tactics are applied to Fi-people..especially young people, they have the opposite effect as the prodding to move ahead has a paralyzing effect on Fi which cannot ignore the amount of emotional inconsistencies going on and gets bogged down in that. You're effectively adding to the burden of the person as they now not only have to figure out their own head aches, but also why they're causing yours (or try and avoid it all together) and they never get around to what they have to fix in order to get out of this hole. Vice versa, having Fi applied to an Fe person makes them probably go: Ok, you're sweet to me, but ultimately that doesn't help me here! Add to that that we tend to want to respect people's personal bubbles and wait till we're asked to do something (as we experience that as nosy ourselves), and the perception of laziness, not as good a friend as they thought and unreliable easily come to life.
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  8. #148
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Not enough info? Well okay, I present you with Exhibit A:

    O's words in blue indicate severe distress from having to listen to the negative toxic bullshit banter. Classic toxic ISTP woman's words in red below.
    You're offended just because she believed something negative about the other person? The OP seemed offended mostly by the feeling that the ISTP looked down on the other person as a human being, and not so much the fact that she criticized her, but you seem offended that she said ANYTHING negative about another person, regardless of whether it might have been true. That's a little extreme, don't you think?

    This rant about "negative toxic" things is not helping the OP, or anyone else.

    Anyway, I'm not saying that the sentiments couldn't be viewed as negative and toxic (they could), but I don't think that's the only way to view them. It's not a black and white issue.

    I believe that most of the disagreement on this issue stems from different ways of looking at the situation, and different standards of behavior that people hold others up to. It isn't from negative intention or malice on the part of any party.

  9. #149
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    There's also the issue where there is no way to discern whether or not the OP is being accurate in "quoting things verbatim," so it's hard to explain why someone I never met might be "toxic" (the opening question was extremely loaded); and meanwhile, the issue of potential abuse of the kids, a valid concern regardless, is still being conveniently ignored in favor of once again hashing over Fe/Fi issues. At least the abuse issue is something concrete that could be resolved, even if the rest is subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I think we just differ on what constitutes toxic. All of that, even the red parts, reads as frustrated venting to me. It offended Orobas' Fi sensibilities, and it seems to be offending yours now. My Fe doesn't see it as toxic at all. I can handle a good bit of Fe/Ti ranting before I start to feel drained. People I've considered toxic and had to cut out of my life (after a long period of trying to understand them) are people who a) come seeking my advice for the same problems over and over and over, but never end up making any changes because they just like the attention, b) are so insecure that they feel the need to try and bring me down in subtle or overt ways, or c) are people who I like okay, but who are easily set off, causing me to feel like I'm walking on eggshells around them, trying not to upset them or anger them.

    I don't think it's healthy to write people off as toxic when they likely just have a different communication style, though. If that were the case, I'd write off every Fi-dom friend every time they said something in the heat of anger as toxic, when really, they just communicate their frustration differently, and at different speeds/times than I do.
    Yeah. All that. And it's pretty obvious there's an issue in this case (negligence/abuse of kids) that would be driving any seemingly judgmental commentary, which is different to me than someone who is continually toxic in any situation.
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  10. #150
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    What I like about Fe is that if you ask them a direct personal question they are willing to give a direct honest answer if they attribute it to themselves. If they are balancing lots of viewpoints they will make that very clear. Te is very helpful here.

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