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  1. #121
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    YES, Z Buck! Me, too. I vent to resolve conflicts and frustrations, too. Nothing is ever set in stone. Sometimes what I say is just giving voice to something that's been rolling around in my head and bothering me, resulting in my feeling powerless. Sometimes I can vent about it and kind of resolve it and then need to come back through it again, b/c it bothers me so much. But it's always getting someone else's opinion so I won't go nuts, and getting it out of my head so I won't go nuts.
    Yeah, seriously, I've been told many times that it doesn't sound like I'm doing it to get opinions, but that's really the driving force behind it. And I tend to avoid doing it around people who instinctively shrink back because they must be too scared to offer their own opinion (?), because I don't like feeling like a jerk. But when information bouncing around in my head just doesn't make sense, it drives me nuts and the last thing on my mind is figuring out how to frame the purging of it in a nicey-nice way.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #122
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I third that. Venting may sound like final judgements on people, but it actually is very sensitive to people's reactions and takes them into account when callibrating ones own standpoint on a topic.

  3. #123
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Goodness, this is a rather bizarre thread. .
    yup. very much so. I think that PB and Pro have engaged in a game of feeler truth or dare and I am being dragged into reality. I am like, dude, what the heck is going on here? It's all good though...I shall work on a few details ladies and be in touch shortly. You ladies are both very lovely and caring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Edit: YES, Z Buck! Me, too. I vent to resolve conflicts and frustrations, too. Nothing is ever set in stone. Sometimes what I say is just giving voice to something that's been rolling around in my head and bothering me, resulting in my feeling powerless. Sometimes I can vent about it and kind of resolve it and then need to come back through it again, b/c it bothers me so much. But it's always getting someone else's opinion so I won't go nuts, and getting it out of my head so I won't go nuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Because, well...that's ME. So it's like...if they can't take those rougher edges, then in the end they can't really take me in my entirety. I think this is why I have so few relationships where I can show the majority or all of my sides. Most people get the bits and pieces that I think they can take or *understand*.

    But... in the end... isn't this what most adults end up doing? Learn as they grow up that they need to be selective in who they let in? Figuring out who to allow close into their life and who not? I suppose we all just have our unique traits and needs out or relationships..
    Okay, so I totally understand all of the comments about venting. Fi users feel exactly, exactly EXACTLY the same way-We want to be able to vent through all the Fi stuff we are feeling, get it out of our heads as we work out the details and figure out was is okay and not okay to feel, what and why are values may or may not be okay-THAT is actually what you see me doing in this thread. Exact same stuff, same needs.....oh, yeah it totally sounds judgmental and reactive...cause it is in mid process...

    But if I accept you guys Ti venting for what it is, can I ask you to take my Fi venting for what it is and not be offended or call me schizophrenic or too sensitive or overly emotional? Hmmmm??? I know, I know...

    Cascadeco, I am afraid ENFPs work backwards from your explanation-we are initially very open and sharing to Everyone and tend to get emotionally mauled as a result and learn the hard way who to shut out and who to let in. We start off extroverting the inner Fi goo, get hurt, then we layer weird Te bandages and shadowy Ni to try and keep the inner self hidden-because we dont have the Fe ability to separate the inside emo from the outer display??

    We end up building really weird boxes to try and keep the goo in, but my ENTP says she can still see it leaking around the edges and it makes her nervous-it upsets her Fe and feels unstable until she can build a Ti system for the particular ENFP-she needs someway to predict the emotional lability before she can relax.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Greta's Avatar
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    Why is it that ENFP's alleged Fi can seem so alien and strange (and yes, melodramatic and overemotional) to me yet the INFP's I can identify with? I can set my clock by it.

    /strong Fi user who pretty much echoes Orangey for thread.

  5. #125
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Okay, so I totally understand all of the comments about venting. Fi users feel exactly, exactly EXACTLY the same way-We want to be able to vent through all the Fi stuff we are feeling, get it out of our heads as we work out the details and figure out was is okay and not okay to feel, what and why are values may or may not be okay-THAT is actually what you see me doing in this thread. Exact same stuff, same needs.....oh, yeah it totally sounds judgmental and reactive...cause it is in mid process...

    But if I accept you guys Ti venting for what it is, can I ask you to take my Fi venting for what it is and not be offended or call me schizophrenic or too sensitive or overly emotional? Hmmmm??? I know, I know...
    Okay, this makes sense.
    Something Witty

  6. #126
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Just to repeat, the "ISTP" in the story is probably an XSXJ. To be more precise but potentially less accurate, she's ISTJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Thread Goal-Exploration of a very negative Fi: Fe experience IRL and gain an understanding of why/what is missing in communication and why her words struck me so harshly. Understand how she could feel this way, say one thing and act in another.
    Perhaps you'd gain a better understanding about your communication issues with your MIL if you understood the actual situation more clearly (i.e., found out about the neglect, discovered what other factors are frustrating your MIL, etc.,.) Does that not sound more practical than speculating on an internet forum about the clash between honest Fi and deceitful Fe? Or do you really just want to use this as an opportunity to congratulate yourself some more on your highly-tuned sensitivity to cruelness and injustice in this world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Exactly. And I refuse to believe Fi just believes everyone is sunshine and rainbows 100% of the time and Fi never badmouths anyone EVARR (well, you can look on the forum for lots of evidence of the latter, so I know that part isn't true). Is it just that Fi doesn't vocalize their negative feelings about anyone until they've decided the person is a despicable human being? From the horrified Fi reaction here it kinda seems like that might be so....which would be very interesting.
    Agreed.

    You know, if dissimulating their true feelings is really as difficult for Fi users as you guys are making it sound, then they must be dead terrible at manipulation (in both roles, as the manipulator or as the one being manipulated.) Of course, I don't for one second believe that Fi users are any less capable of lying or masking their feelings than anyone else. The whole idea is just some bullshit cooked up by a few people who love their own personality profiles a little too much.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #127
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Exactly. And I refuse to believe Fi just believes everyone is sunshine and rainbows 100% of the time and Fi never badmouths anyone EVARR (well, you can look on the forum for lots of evidence of the latter, so I know that part isn't true). Is it just that Fi doesn't vocalize their negative feelings about anyone until they've decided the person is a despicable human being? From the horrified Fi reaction here it kinda seems like that might be so....which would be very interesting.

    (as in, Fi here is reading the negative words of the istp - and we still don't know whether they are just 100% factual rather than negative whining - as proof that the istp has "cruelly" decided that this woman is a despicable human being)
    Of course we vent about people, but speaking for myself, I tend to avoid utterly condemning someone when I do so. Even when someone annoys the hell out of me I am very circumspect about speaking as if my view is reflective of some objective truth (ie. that everyone should agree with me). I only do so when there is damning evidence that they are a shitty person; anything less than that, I assume it is merely my opinion. Even then I will often blame myself to some degree for the problems. I will second guess myself and think that my annoyance is my own fault because: a) I am failing to properly understand their position, b) I am too irritable and easily annoyed, c) I am being too sensitive, d) I am doing something, or failing to do something, that causes them to behave this way, d) I expect too much of them, e) they can't help it/don't mean to be that way and consequently I'm horrible for thinking meanly of them.

    Fi has a keen sense of the shades of complexities in regards to human behaviour - for us there is no black and white (ie. either neglect or no neglect) in relation to such issues. I think O probably thinks that the mother could be taking better care of her kids but that she is hardly deserving of such harsh criticism. I also think O feels that if the ISTP were to make the effort to see things from the other woman's point of view, she wouldn't be so critical of her - it bothers her that most of these problems could be solved if the ISTP considered all of the contributing factors but she flatly refuses to do so. Its not just offensive to us because she's being unfairly judgemental, we actually find it nonsensical and unreasonable.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #128
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I also think O feels that if the ISTP were to make the effort to see things from the other woman's point of view, she wouldn't be so critical of her - it bothers her that most of these problems could be solved if the ISTP considered all of the contributing factors but she flatly refuses to do so.
    Is that even true?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #129
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Interesting, Southern Cross. I rarely conclude that someone is a bad person altogether.

    I think Fe and Fi just draw their conclusions at different points. Fe tends to be more upfront and rigid initially, but adjustable as it gathers context and perspective on the individual situation (this is why you hear Fe-ers often asking a lot of questions that may seem invasive or probing to Fi users. They are trying to figure out motivations and gather additional information that would help them make a balanced judgement). From what I've noticed, Fi seems to be very flexible at the outset and very reluctant to be judgemental, but comes to a fairly black and white decision at the end that is not easily changed, particularly if values are involved. I am quite outspoken (in my thoughts and in private company) about my opinions on their behaviour though. Behaviour and the person themselves are somehow distinct for me in some regards, even though I highly value integrity. One of my biggest problems in fact tends to be that once I have figured out the cause of their bad behaviour, I tend to excuse more than I should or not draw firm boundaries for what I will and won't accept. Over time, I've discovered that it is much kinder to have those boundaries clear and draw them earlier than I am naturally inclined to, so that I don't become resentful with them and so that they don't feel criticized or condemned.

  10. #130
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Is that even true?
    With the majority of the points of conflict, yes.

    Acording to the ISTP the ISFP is terrible because:

    - "The kids are malnourished/drink milk all the time" - explained by - a) young children tend to be hopeless eaters, b) milk is actually good for them. However, perhaps the ISFP doesn't know the correct things to feed children because no one taught her and needs help with this.
    - "They run around like dogs" - explained by - they are children. Running around is normal
    - "They aren't toilet trained" - explained by - they are all 3 and under. This is normal
    - "I don't want her to toilet train them - it will ruin the carpet" - illogical - You can't complain they aren't toilet trained, then tell her she can't toilet train them
    - "The kids are sick all the time" - explained by - Its winter. People get colds, especially children
    - "The children are filthy/wear dirty diapers/aren't properly dressed" - fair points and should be addressed
    -"[She was messy]" - illogical - This issue has already been addressed. Its beating a dead horse.
    -"Its only a matter of time before she slacks and let’s everything get messy again." - illogical - you can't blame someone for something they haven't done yet.
    -"[Our standards of cleaning] should be obvious [to her]" - explained by - she's not psychic. People have different approaches to housework and the ISFP wasn't informed that she was required to keep a certain standard.
    - "The children don't talk" - explained by - a) they are still young. Children learn at different rates, b) they may be shy
    -"All she does is hold the baby" - ???
    -"[I can't contact a speech development specialist because] they would take her kids away" - fair point but only if she genuinely believes this, otherwise its just dramatics
    -"An introverted person wouldn't beg for help" - illogical - a) this is begging the question, b) she wasn't even 'begging' for help anyway (as the ISTP admits)
    - "She told someone from the church her sob story, so what else could we do?"- illogical - how is the ISFP's fault? The ISTP didn't want to help her but was forced to out of pity/religious obligation and is now blaming the inconvenience of this on the ISFP. Lovely.
    - "If she cared about her kids she wouldn't have cancelled her doctors appointments" - illogical - again this is begging the question. And perhaps the ISFP felt burdensome, however, I agree she still should keep going to the doctor
    - "We had to change our schedules when she wanted a ride to the doctor's" - illogical - this is complaining that she doesn't go to the doctors, then complaining that she does. She's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.
    - "If she cared about burdening us she would do a better job cleaning up" - illogical - this is begging the question. Anyway, she has already adhered to the cleaning standards; again, its a dead horse
    - "You’d think they would have already got a new place" - explained by - they weren't explicitly told that they had to do this ASAP.
    -"They don’t even come into the church service anymore" - explained by - did they even know that they were expected to? But I can see why the ISTP sees this as ungrateful and inconsiderate.
    - "They just sleep in until ten or so on Saturdays and Sundays watching television." - explained by - since when was this a crime?
    - "Even though they are moving out, I will still have to stop by their house because she obviously doesn’t know how to parent her children." - its likely the ISFP does need help but does the ISTP really have to play the martyr?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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