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  1. #111
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Thread Goal-Exploration of a very negative Fi: Fe experience IRL and gain an understanding of why/what is missing in communication and why her words struck me so harshly. Understand how she could feel this way, say one thing and act in another.
    I have been told myself that I sound too sure of things when I vent, that I phrase them in such a way that it sounds like I’ve made finalized decisions. I related very much to what Tallulah wrote. I am careful who I vent to because of it. I get hurt and offended if someone- whom I had trusted knew me well- sees my venting as cruel. I don’t think I ever make finalized value judgments about people. I’m not making non-negotiable declarations when I vent, I’m issuing statements about the way things appear to me. If I’m particularly heated in doing so, it’s because I’ve found <whatever I’m venting about> particularly troubling. Quite often, I vent to work out conflicting information in my head (e.g. “I want to help these people get back on their feet” and “They aren’t using my help to get back on their feet”).

    I don’t think it’s a matter of feeling one thing and acting in another. When I vent, it’s because I’m trying to figure out what I feel in the first place, it’s because I’ve got contradictory sentiments happening simultaneously and I’m trying to merge them.

    edit: I agree with others who have stated this woman sounds like a J (I get this impression, even with the little information you can get about a stranger in a thread). Js can have a very hard time making sense of external situations that deviate drastically from the direction in which they anticipated events would unfold.
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  2. #112
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    How far would you go to figure out if there is real neglect happening, regardless of your MIL questionable assessment and observations?
    Since geography has no bearing in your opinion, how far would you go? You could contact O, find out the name of the church, make a donation or pay a visit. ?

    Just curious.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  3. #113
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Now I'm wondering something else about people calling FJs nosy.

    I know when I hear something about another person that I don't know whether to believe or not, I go straight to the horse and ask. I know that I have gone up to the object of gossip or speculation and said "Hey I'm not trying to be all up in your business, but I've heard XYZ. Is this true?"

    I do this because I feel like I'm trying to get to the truth of something and if I ask the person in question directly, hence filtering out lies and BS. Of course this all depends on how comfortable the person feels in telling me the truth, but I feel like at least I asked and tried to see what was really going on. I'm just wondering now if this is what people think when the call FJs nosy and being in things they don't belong in.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Since geography has no bearing in your opinion, how far would you go? You could contact O, find out the name of the church, make a donation or pay a visit. ?

    Just curious.
    Yep, that's what I believe I'm doing right now.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #114
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Great post on page 10, Orobas--my answer is, no, you can't expect her to change her venting style to make you more comfortable, and it helps if you can see that she's just venting and isn't a cruel person. I think you could ask her not to vent to you if it still makes you uncomfortable, though. Maybe tell her you tend to internalize it when you hear things that sound negative, and it stresses you out, even though you know it's just venting. My sister calls me to vent because she knows I won't internalize it or think it's anger directed at me or anything. My mom doesn't respond well to venting, so my sister learned that and doesn't vent to her anymore.

    BUT, one thing I've learned from these Fe-Fi threads is not to get upset when a Fi friend feels something is wrong in our relationship and says potentially hurtful things in the heat of the moment. I've learned that that usually means that they really care about the friendship and (sometimes) will say things like that just to get things in the open and keep you engaged and communicating. It really throws me for a loop, because I'd never say those things unless I was prepared to deal with long term consequences or the possible end of a friendship, but Fi seems to be fine after it's gotten it out in the open. So I know now not to attach as much weight to it as I would if I were dealing with an Fe friend. So yeah, I'm learning to flex to Fi, too.

    As far as Vasilisa's comment about saying "You hurt my feelings when you say that..." that's fine if someone has hurt YOUR feelings. But if that's your tactic to get an Fe user to stop venting to you, they'll probably be embarrassed AND think you're overly sensitive. Seriously. Because she's not venting about you, she's venting about someone else. See my first paragraph if you want ISTP to stop venting to you.

    Edit: YES, Z Buck! Me, too. I vent to resolve conflicts and frustrations, too. Nothing is ever set in stone. Sometimes what I say is just giving voice to something that's been rolling around in my head and bothering me, resulting in my feeling powerless. Sometimes I can vent about it and kind of resolve it and then need to come back through it again, b/c it bothers me so much. But it's always getting someone else's opinion so I won't go nuts, and getting it out of my head so I won't go nuts.
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  5. #115
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yep, that's what I believe I'm doing right now.
    What do you believe you are doing right now? Helping the situation by pressing O into doing something?

    I was asking about you, personally, getting involved - you taking action for this family. How far are you willing to go? If it's only as far as pressing O here in this thread, then I get that. How much farther?

    I feel your challenge, and I take you up on it. You seem very "in your face" at the moment but I am willing to take this farther.


    Are you spurred to action? Wanna work together and come up with an action plan for this family with me? Think about it.

    Edit: just saw your rep. Let's do this!
    Last edited by PeaceBaby; 02-02-2011 at 02:45 PM. Reason: added info
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #116
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Goodness, this is a rather bizarre thread.

    Tallulah, definitely related to your comment on venting only to those you really trust and have a more invested relationship with. And to Jennifer's point... for me, to be able to show the negative or confused thoughts/opinions going on in my head (or, truthfully, even the solid/unchanging but not-so-nice opinions that I've formed), and actually externalizing them, means I trust enough in the relationship and that the other person isn't going to be hurt or offended by what I say. Because, well...that's ME. So it's like...if they can't take those rougher edges, then in the end they can't really take me in my entirety. I think this is why I have so few relationships where I can show the majority or all of my sides. Most people get the bits and pieces that I think they can take or *understand*.

    But... in the end... isn't this what most adults end up doing? Learn as they grow up that they need to be selective in who they let in? Figuring out who to allow close into their life and who not? I suppose we all just have our unique traits and needs out or relationships.

    It's, um, probably notable that irl my close friends are either INFJ's or xNTJ's, with a few NTP's and an ISFJ thrown in. I don't really have any super close NFP friends - or SFP ones, actually. I think I've always had difficulty with dom/aux Fi - my more unvarnished, full self is going to be less palatable and ripe for dissension and misunderstanding to them, and to be fair, theirs is to me too. So, yeah. Everyone's going to have their own preferences and also it's not going to be super clearcut within a type - I mean, I know other NFJ's on here who have close NFP friends so it's pretty individual too.
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  7. #117
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I have been told myself that I sound too sure of things when I vent, that I phrase them in such a way that it sounds like I’ve made finalized decisions. I related very much to what Tallulah wrote. I am careful who I vent to because of it. I get hurt and offended if someone- whom I had trusted knew me well- sees my venting as cruel. I don’t think I ever make finalized value judgments about people. I’m not making non-negotiable declarations when I vent, I’m issuing statements about the way things appear to me. If I’m particularly heated in doing so, it’s because I’ve found <whatever I’m venting about> particularly troubling. Quite often, I vent to work out conflicting information in my head (e.g. “I want to help these people get back on their feet” and “They aren’t using my help to get back on their feet”).

    I don’t think it’s a matter of feeling one thing and acting in another. When I vent, it’s because I’m trying to figure out what I feel in the first place, it’s because I’ve got contradictory sentiments happening simultaneously and I’m trying to merge them.
    Exactly. And I refuse to believe Fi just believes everyone is sunshine and rainbows 100% of the time and Fi never badmouths anyone EVARR (well, you can look on the forum for lots of evidence of the latter, so I know that part isn't true). Is it just that Fi doesn't vocalize their negative feelings about anyone until they've decided the person is a despicable human being? From the horrified Fi reaction here it kinda seems like that might be so....which would be very interesting.

    (as in, Fi here is reading the negative words of the istp - and we still don't know whether they are just 100% factual rather than negative whining - as proof that the istp has "cruelly" decided that this woman is a despicable human being)
    -end of thread-

  8. #118
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What do you believe you are doing right now? Helping the situation by pressing O into doing something?

    I was asking about you, personally, getting involved - you taking action for this family. How far are you willing to go? If it's only as far as pressing O here in this thread, then I get that. How much farther?

    I feel your challenge, and I take you up on it. You seem very "in your face" at the moment but I am willing to take this farther.


    Are you spurred to action? Wanna work together and come up with an action plan for this family with me? Think about it.
    These are the suggestions I've made on what can be done in this thread:

    1. If money management is an issue, is Orobas willing to teach the woman basics of money management. I suggested that she collaborate with the woman via Google Docs (or whatever collaboration tools they find) and help her build a basic budget. That does not require being within the same geographic reason as long as the woman has internet access.
    2. If the woman is in need of emotional support, is Orobas willing to get the woman a prepaid cell and just talk to her a couple of times per month.
    3. Ask the woman personally, what her needs are if she can support or assist her.

    If Orobas chooses to give me the information for the church, I promise I will make a monetary donation. You have my word right now in this thread. If you're asking me how far I would personally go to find out if there is neglect, then if Orobas gives me the name and location of the family I will call their local Social Services and tell them my concerns. I'll allow the local social services to judge whether there is legitimate neglect happening, because I don't think Orobas is in any position to make that call and O feels her MIL is misappraising the situation. I have done this several times before when I heard my neighbor beating the hell out of his girlfriend. I don't play around with this if I think something is really going on, and I have no problems with doing it.

    I think it would look extremely odd for me, an anonymous internet person to ask specifically about the details of this situation regarding this family to the MIL and the family in question. If you're asking would I make contact with the family in question personally, I'm scrambling my brain with how I could gracefully, without outing how I know about the situation and I do feel uncomfortable with doing that. But I'm in a different position that Orobas, she has at least met them while I have not. She's in a better position to be of meaningful assistance than me.

    This is what I would do if O let's me know who the people are.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #119
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    As far as Vasilisa's comment about saying "You hurt my feelings when you say that..." that's fine if someone has hurt YOUR feelings. But if that's your tactic to get an Fe user to stop venting to you, they'll probably be embarrassed AND think you're overly sensitive. Seriously. Because she's not venting about you, she's venting about someone else. See my first paragraph if you want ISTP to stop venting to you.
    I don't know if I posted that for tactical purposes. I felt for what Orobas said about having to bend, and I offered a suggestion for mental health in situations sort of similar. Orobas can use whatever adjective describes her feeling. All I am saying is that it can help to just honestly express that heartfelt emotion, without any qualifiers (I'm just easily hurt, I'm squeamish to negativity) or perceptions/projections regarding the other party (you sound so cruel it makes me want to scream) and see how they react and go from there. Someone can dismiss any emotion you admit to for any reason, but they cannot deny it. It can be a way to start a dialogue if both parties have an interest in that. They may not. Mostly I see it as a possible way for Orobas to feel true to her heart and true to her friend.
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  10. #120
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    proteanmix, thanks for your reply. I appreciate it; I appreciate you.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    These are the suggestions I've made on what can be done in this thread:

    1. If money management is an issue, is Orobas willing to teach the woman basics of money management. I suggested that she collaborate with the woman via Google Docs (or whatever collaboration tools they find) and help her build a basic budget. That does not require being within the same geographic reason as long as the woman has internet access.
    2. If the woman is in need of emotional support, is Orobas willing to get the woman a prepaid cell and just talk to her a couple of times per month.
    3. Ask the woman personally, what her needs are if she can support or assist her.
    Those are all good suggestions. They presuppose naturally, that O can establish a rapport and trust with this young mom, and the young mom is open to it.

    If Orobas chooses to give me the information for the church, I promise I will make a monetary donation. You have my word right now in this thread.
    Awesome - there are ways we can make a monetary donation and keep it anonymous. If there are more people interested in this thread to give a small donation towards some specific help for this family, I can set this up.

    If you're asking me how far I would personally go to find out if there is neglect, then if Orobas gives me the name and location of the family I will call their local Social Services and tell them my concerns. I'll allow the local social services to judge whether there is legitimate neglect happening, because I don't think Orobas is in any position to make that call and O feels her MIL is misappraising the situation. I have done this several times before when I heard my neighbor beating the hell out of his girlfriend. I don't play around with this if I think something is really going on, and I have no problems with doing it.
    Let's be careful about that step. Needs some research first. If ISTP MIL hasn't felt the need to go that far, I am going to trust her judgement atm that it doesn't need to happen.

    I think it would look extremely odd for me, an anonymous internet person to ask specifically about the details of this situation regarding this family to the MIL and the family in question. If you're asking would I make contact with the family in question personally, I'm scrambling my brain with how I could gracefully, without outing how I know about the situation and I do feel uncomfortable with doing that. But I'm in a different position that Orobas, she has at least met them while I have not. She's in a better position to be of meaningful assistance than me.
    Agreed; the cool thing is - there is stuff we could do without directly involving the family or embarrassing anyone. That's where some creative brainstorming comes into play. If you and other folks are serious about this in thread, I will explore some avenues and come back with answers so we can plan further. Interested?

    Anyone else here too is welcome to please PM me or post on my wall.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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