User Tag List

First 91011121321 Last

Results 101 to 110 of 499

  1. #101
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,501

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I think if someone is uncomfortable with a situation, it's their responsibility to do something about it - whether that be "bending", asking for change, demanding, avoiding the situation, etc. Most people won't try to change their whole personality and ways of expression because someone else interprets it in a negative way (unless it's a serious problem).

    Thanks for explaining more, though. It puts things in more perspective.
    Yes. I thought this was common sense. Is it not? To me its owning your actions and taking responsibility for them. I dont like it when I cannot choose my own action. Life is a constant choice of actions.

    edit: Its nice when someone else makes the choices though, but its even a choice to allow them to make the choice.

  2. #102
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_
    Yes. I thought this was common sense. Is it not? To me its owning your actions and taking responsibility for them.
    well, yes, but sometimes it's a hard decision how far you should push your own Fi standards onto others. obviously speaking out against abuse or for human rights is appropriate, but there are a lot more ambiguous situations, like this one. you don't want to not speak out if it's important, because then you're betraying yourself and perpetuating harm, but you don't want to be unfair (some values are simply very personal decisions) or hurt others unnecessarily either.

    i suspect it's less that way with Fe because Fe is more reliant on external circumstances... it's like kalach has described Ni, Fi is not so grounded in reality. a lot of values are based on the "ideal world" situation... hard to know how far to reasonably take that sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    So I do wonder if perhaps these issues do extend into the real world-but the Fi users around you guys just dont say much about it??
    i used to be very quiet when i was younger... then in my teens i started speaking up more around people i knew well - maybe too much so. it was like a testing ground, almost, and i feel bad that the people close to me bore the brunt of that. i feel more balanced now, try to choose my battles more wisely and confront people in a way i will not be embarrassed by later. it doesn't always work, as evidenced by my occasional dumb snap-reactions in the forums. but it's gotten better.

    i also know that i am too F-sensitive when dealing with my INTP dad and brother, and could also use extra patience dealing with Fe sometimes. i don't feel very offended or restrained usually. i think with a little patience and a little charm we can wiggle our way around most situations

  3. #103
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    In my head I felt very offended, but I didnt speak up at all. If pushed very, very hard by an Fe user, I dont say anything but instead just walk away and avoid them. Very rarely would I speak up in return-it feels really rude to do so, as they have a right to feel what they feel...
    My ESTP brother and ISTP father were ungentle with me growing up. Although I wouldn't call them "Fe users." It was recommended, that when they said harsh things to me, to tell them the truth, "it hurts my feelings when you say that" rather than cry or lash out. The logic being, that it takes a cold person to hear that and continue on.

    In a way, to me, this whole thread seems to be about the poisonous nature of resentment. I just wonder if you could tell your friend, "It hurts me to hear you say these things." That way you are speaking your truth and also helping her know that she is diminishing herself in your eyes. I learned the hard way that people don't always react the way that you hope. But maybe being honest with your feelings is reward enough. I hope the best for every single person involved.
    the formless thing which gives things form!
    Found Forum Haiku Project


    Positive Spin | your feedback welcomed | Darker Criticism

  4. #104
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,501

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    My ESTP brother and ISTP father were ungentle with me growing up. Although I wouldn't call them "Fe users." It was recommended, that when they said harsh things to me, to tell them the truth, "it hurts my feelings when you say that" rather than cry or lash out. The logic being, that it takes a cold person to hear that and continue on.

    In a way, to me, this whole thread seems to be about the poisonous nature of resentment. I just wonder if you could tell your friend, "It hurts me to hear you say these things." That way you are speaking your truth and also helping her know that she is diminishing herself in your eyes. I learned the hard way that people don't always react the way that you hope. But maybe being honest with your feelings is reward enough. I hope the best for every single person involved.
    A person can easily rationalize that you are just TO sensitive or really anything to convince themselves of things and not even think/feel cold. Its part of life and our protection mechanisms. Something I have just accepted. Doesnt mean you have to deal with these people, just understand thats how people are.

  5. #105
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Please help me understand why she feels it is okay to be so mean to this poor women? Why is she wanting to "help" someone she says horrible things about all the time? My apologies for the Fi judgments in the convo...it seemed best to include how i felt vs what I actually said......
    I didn't really like all the assumptions I saw floating around in what the "ISTP" woman was saying, but I didn't really like all the parallel assumptions you made in your Fi scree about the ISTP woman either. The judgment calls go both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah
    This could definitely be the case. When we vent to someone, there's usually an unspoken expectation that the person is "on our side," because we have some estimation of the relationship, and feel close enough to the person that we feel like they know where we're coming from. We don't have to say, "I know I'm being a real bitch right now, but I just have to vent..." because we feel like the other person knows we're not trying to be nasty, knows what kind of person we are.
    Yeah. Totally identify. I have a few key friends who I can allow myself to "appear" potentially as ugly as need be in the sake of just being honest about my feeligns. But these people have been screened heavily and they have proven their ability to grasp me and my intentions. So I can trust when I try not to present myself in a good light, they'll still see what I perceive to be the "real me."

    BUT if we feel that way about the person we're venting to, and they don't feel like they know us as well, or are as close to us as we think we are to them, it all goes off the rails. And can be really potentially damaging/embarrassing for the venter, because they wouldn't have opened their mouths if they didn't think the ventee would take it in the spirit in which it was intended. And therefore it becomes kind of obvious you'd misread the nature of the relationship.
    Yeah. That can be emotionally dangerous and thus very painful for both people involved.

    I know it would be deeply embarrassing for me to vent to a friend and find out later that they were horrified by what I'd said, and that it possibly changed how they saw me as a person. Especially if they used words like "cruel." Because I know I'm not a cruel person, and it would just indicate that they really, really didn't know me. I don't know if I'd be able to carry on a friendship in that kind of situation. Partly because I know they'd be thinking that about me, and partly because I'd be thinking, well, if you can't handle that, we're probably not going to relate well to each other.
    Again, the same here, very much so... but we usually have the same experience with this stuff anyway.

    Anyway, I think it's always good to be cautious who you allow to see the shadow side OR the negative side of your personality, unless you're prepared for the consequences. It's the same as my dark humor -- there are people I can just say very dry things around without having to cue that I'm joking and I know they'll grasp me, but if someone doesn't know me, they could end up thinking I'm a twisted, sick bitch with some of the things that can slip out of my mouth sometimes. (At least, I hope I'm not.)

    It's pretty clear already from this forum over the last number of months that some flavors of Fe vs Fi just don't read each other well and probably need to be more careful how they interact with each other.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #106
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    A person can easily rationalize that you are just TO sensitive or really anything to convince themselves of things and not even think/feel cold. Its part of life and our protection mechanisms. Something I have just accepted. Doesnt mean you have to deal with these people, just understand thats how people are.
    True, but at least it helps clarify. And clarity can help bring understanding.
    the formless thing which gives things form!
    Found Forum Haiku Project


    Positive Spin | your feedback welcomed | Darker Criticism

  7. #107
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,501

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    well, yes, but sometimes it's a hard decision how far you should push your own Fi standards onto others. obviously speaking out against abuse or for human rights is appropriate, but there are a lot more ambiguous situations, like this one. you don't want to not speak out if it's important, because then you're betraying yourself and perpetuating harm, but you don't want to be unfair (some values are simply very personal decisions) or hurt others unnecessarily either.
    I dont know what it is about Fi, but they way it projects itself onto others takes on responsilibility that it should not. This is my T side speaking. Its one thing to try and to care, but another to blame yourself for not trying harder or caring more. Do what you can, what you want and let go of the rest.

  8. #108
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    5,514

    Default

    Orobas, this is still puzzling me throughout this thread: why won't you acknowledge there may be genuine neglect happening? Because you may have to do something about it? Why are you focusing on your MIL's commentary rather than investigating in earnest whether this couple is truly neglecting their children?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #109
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Orobas, this is still puzzling me throughout this thread: why won't you acknowledge there may be genuine neglect happening? Because you may have to do something about it? Why are you focusing on your MIL's commentary rather than investigating in earnest whether this couple is truly neglecting their children?
    (Might I note a perspective shift on your part? It's okay but it does deviate back into an earlier portion of the thread a bit and sort of change the topic of the current convo, and begins to shift the convo to me as a person, rather than a discussion of where communication/judgments failed in the OP.)

    Simply put-that wasnt the goal of the thread?

    Thread Goal-Exploration of a very negative Fi: Fe experience IRL and gain an understanding of why/what is missing in communication and why her words struck me so harshly. Understand how she could feel this way, say one thing and act in another.

    The purpose is not to 1) judge MIL is EVIL, 2) develop action plans to address family needs or 3) ascertain the absolute truth of neglect

    There may be genuine neglect happening, but according to the fairly objective criteria you listed a few posts earlier, this does not appear to be the case on information shared by MIL or DIL or what I have observed. If I use the term neglect, I recognize the very severe implications that invokes. It isnt simply that you are not raising kids according to how I would do so, but that you are failing in any of the categories you mentioned. MIL uses "neglect" thus far as a term of frustration and it represents her opinions-but does not meet the objective criteria you mentioned. However I do recognize how the concern over real neglect does feed into understanding the MILs commentary and perspective from the posters in the thread.

  10. #110
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    5,514

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    (Might I note a perspective shift on your part? It's okay but it does deviate back into an earlier portion of the thread a bit and sort of change the topic of the current convo, and begins to shift the convo to me as a person, rather than a discussion of where communication/judgments failed in the OP.)
    As far as my participation in the thread, when I read the OP it was never about it being a Fe-Fi communication misfire, I've always wanted to know whether or not there is neglect happening. To me, it seemed that you were avoiding investigating whether or not neglect was a serious possibility and instead focusing on the fact that you didn't like the way your MIL talked about the family. I still don't believe your MIL holds these people in contempt, disdain, or harbors ill-feeling towards them. As I'm interpreting what you described in the OP, you were privy to a vent of frustration that probably shouldn't have been said to you because you don't really want to get involved in the situation if something is legitimately amiss.

    I still am not sure how you know about the intricacies of the situation considering you are 200 miles away. From what I understand, you have had few encounters with this family and most of what you know about the situation is secondhand through your MIL. Is this correct? From what I understand, you have taken no action to understand the depth of the situation from the couple, not through you MIL, not what you see from a distance. Is this correct? From what I understand, you believe your MIL is judging this woman and her care of her children on petty and unrealistic standards, i.e. meals not according to a strict schedule (according to your MILs definition of what proper feeding is), canceling drs. appt because of being oppressed by the MIL, the church strongarming this woman and her family into their edicts and commands. Is this correct?

    I have no reason to believe your interpretation of your MIL's comments above your MILs assessment of the situation. Your MIL has had the most interaction with this family and has seen things that I know you CANNOT of have seen simply because you are 200 miles away and simply not present to witness events.

    Thread Goal-Exploration of a very negative Fi: Fe experience IRL and gain an understanding of why/what is missing in communication and why her words struck me so harshly. Understand how she could feel this way, say one thing and act in another.
    Once again, I don't see her acting in one way, behaving in another. You have made the assumption of you MILs true motivations and feelings towards this family, your Fi scree as someone described it. Another thing I wanted to bring up is this is of course your ex MIL. You have a previous relationship with her due to a marriage and you history of interactions with her that color your perspective and interpretations of her comments towards her irrespective of her current dealings with this family. My Fe is poking through and you know it's all about relationships, bridges, and connections people have to one another as well. I have speculated about how your past with your MIL is coloring how you view her treatment of this family. I'm a speculative person and can't help but wonder, I'm not trying to cast doubt on you but like I said, hey I'm thinking it...it's rolling around in my head.

    Furthermore, you open yourself for me to speculate about you when you started the thread. I don't see why it's a problem that I ask you about your personal involvement in this vein. You opened your psyche up for us to roam around in, and I'm walking around picking up stuff and opening drawers and cupboards. Is this a guided tour and I entered a room For Authorized Personnel Only? Is the best thing for me not to say explicitly what I'm wondering about you? Am I making the same mistake your MIL made...thinking I can verbalize my thoughts and I really can't broadcast them? My goals in this thread are different from yours and if I choose the explore my curiosities and speculation, what's the problem with that? I am more than willing to take this to PM if you feel this is a derail.

    The purpose is not to 1) judge MIL is EVIL, 2) develop action plans to address family needs or 3) ascertain the absolute truth of neglect
    OK, well then I have automatically gone to 2 and 3. That's what mode I'm in. Why aren't those your goals? ETA: Please understand my POV. I'm hearing you as saying, "I'm more interested in figuring out why I feel the way I feel than actually helping people in need." That's illogical to me. One of the things I know I've seen you say repeatedly on this forum is that you go the the person in greatest need. Is this not a clear-cut situation of people in the greatest need?

    There may be genuine neglect happening, but according to the fairly objective criteria you listed a few posts earlier, this does not appear to be the case on information shared by MIL or DIL or what I have observed. If I use the term neglect, I recognize the very severe implications that invokes. It isnt simply that you are not raising kids according to how I would do so, but that you are failing in any of the categories you mentioned. MIL uses "neglect" thus far as a term of frustration and it represents her opinions-but does not meet the objective criteria you mentioned. However I do recognize how the concern over real neglect does feed into understanding the MILs commentary and perspective from the posters in the thread.
    I've already questioned the extent to what your observations are valid, being 200 miles away and all. How far would you go to figure out if there is real neglect happening, regardless of your MIL questionable assessment and observations?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

Similar Threads

  1. [Fi] The One Where an Inferior Fi User Groundlessly Speculates about FPs...
    By Wind Up Rex in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 08-07-2013, 10:06 AM
  2. [Fe] When an Fe user verbally rants....
    By sculpting in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 10-28-2009, 11:01 AM
  3. [NF] theory about Fe & Fi
    By lorkan in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 80
    Last Post: 02-23-2009, 06:37 PM
  4. auxilary Fe/Fi detectives
    By entropie in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-06-2008, 09:37 PM
  5. Fe/Fi interactions with Te/Ti
    By proteanmix in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-20-2007, 10:20 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO